Has the US violated our founding principles?

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ryacko
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Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by ryacko »

I'll go by analyzing how the Declaration of Independence item by item, applies to the present day. Many items of course do not apply, but I'm including the Declaration in whole for completeness.
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
This is a reference to royal assent and British colonial bureaucracy, which isn't a good comparison to current US foreign policy.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
The dissolution of legislatures could be compared to regime change, but many items of the quoted list don't quite apply yet.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
Most modern armies however don't live off the land, although arguably, one could say that military checkpoints violate this principle.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
It wasn't until 2008 that a status of forces agreement was signed between the US and Iraq. I am unaware of any SOFAs between the US and Afghanistan.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
Our armies and mercenaries are protected from being prosecuted.
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
Fortunately, our armed troops don't live off the land, and live in military bases, some of ad-hoc construction.
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
Once again, our armies and mercenaries are protected from being prosecuted, and in some cases the rules of war are violated or ignored. Or to rile your emotion: A pregnant women is being rushed to a hospital, because the car didn't slow down, or didn't slow down fast enough for the checkpoint, the car is shot up. Who would tolerate such a situation?
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
We are responsible for sanctions against Iraq (killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, many children), sanctions against Iran, Syria, North Korea...
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
Our relationship with the nations we invade and occupy are totally different from old fashioned colonialism, fortunately.
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
Guantamano. Secret CIA prisons.
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For context, the first sentence refers to Quebec, whose citizens desired civil law over common law. On the other hand, it is understandable that it would feel quite threatening that a foreign government is changing the governance of a neighboring nation to an ideology that yourself would not desire.
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
Martial law really.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
This has to do with the British colonial relationship with the colonies, stating that the King has renounced his right to govern. I think.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
Few wars are peaceful.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
Referring to Hessians I believe.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
Impressment, doesn't quite apply to modern circumstances.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
Usually we support and endorse insurrections before invading.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by Flagg »

Since the US was founded on such wonderful things as genocide, slavery, and racial hierarchy, yes. And that's a good thing.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

Of course they have. And it is to be expected. The Declaration is a commendable, in terms of progressiveness and planning, piece of paper. But beyond that, it is a product of the historical forces and circumstances of the day. The country founded on it is not outside of time, and certainly not beyond the flow of history; that notion is, as Joseph Stalin put it, "the heresy of American exceptionalism".

Hell, the laws were supposed to be rewritten every twenty years. America was designed to change, and to do so often. Has the US changed for the better? If you ask me, no, as the various coups, interventions and juntas signify an utter contempt for anyone who isn't an American. Are they better than the colonial powers they replaced? Well, they do not slaughter indigenous populations wholesale, neither do they enslave entire countries, so I guess that counts for something. Is it a better place to live in now than it was before it was founded? Undeniably, but this does not concern me. It concerns Americans.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

I think we really stopped following the founder's principals when we opened the vote to the rest of the people in 1820, further coffin nails were when union bullets started showing the slaveowners what was what. and I for one am very happy with that.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by Ultonius »

ryacko wrote: On the other hand, it is understandable that it would feel quite threatening that a foreign government is changing the governance of a neighboring nation to an ideology that yourself would not desire.
Firstly, when the Quebec Act was passed, in 1774, the Thirteen Colonies were still part of the British Empire, as was Quebec, so the terms 'foreign government' and 'neighboring nation' are not particularly accurate. Secondly, Quebec had used French civil law from the foundation of Quebec City in 1608 until New France was ceded to Britain by France in 1763 at the Treaty of Paris, so its restoration was a symbol of conciliation by the British authorities to the Francophone population of Quebec. Finally, the Quebec Act also guaranteed freedom of religion for Catholics in Quebec, and colonial opposition to the Act for this reason looks very much like simple anti-Catholic bigotry.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by Elheru Aran »

Ryacko,

Do bear in mind that while the Declaration of Independence was important, the Constitution did render it moot; furthermore, the Articles of Confederation had done the same, only earlier. The DoI is mainly a document enumerating the reasons why we wanted independence. I would argue that the Constitution, specifically the original Bill of Rights, are the 'founding principles'.

Never mind that the DoI didn't actually found the United States in the first place, it just declared the states' independence from the British Empire... it does use the term 'the United States of America', but only in the context that the representatives of the thirteen states had consented to this document; the states were still independent entities linked by geography, economy, and the British colonial regime. As far as I recall, the states had not held any form of popular vote to consolidate as a country in 1776, and would not until the Articles of Confederation were passed.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by Darth Wong »

A better question is not whether you have moved away from your "founding principles", but rather, why the hell a country would want to remain psychologically trapped in the 18th century in the first place.

Wrangling about the truth of the statement is not as important as asking why it even matters.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Dr. Trainwreck wrote: Has the US changed for the better? If you ask me, no, as the various coups, interventions and juntas signify an utter contempt for anyone who isn't an American.
:wtf: What, exactly, are you referring to, here? Since when has the US had various coups and juntas? And even if it had, how does this invalidate the fact that this country is significantly better off socially, economically, and in just about every possible respect than it was in 1774?
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by Aaron MkII »

He's obviously referring to America interfering in the affairs of other nations. Which I suppose could relate to the founding principles, iirc the US was originally not going to have a standing army.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by Darth Wong »

Almost as soon as it was formed, America was already attempting to conquer its neighbours, with invasions of both Canada and Mexico. And before either of those events even happened, the US Navy was interfering in the Barbary Coast piracy issue on the other side of the Atlantic.

I don't think we should accept isolationism as a founding principle of the country. I know someone will bring up the Monroe Doctrine, but that seemed to me more like people were saying "Europe is a shithole and we don't want to get involved in its endless internecine warfare". That's not the same as a general policy of isolationism; it's more of a "holy shit, Europe is fucked, let's just stay out of that mess" sort of statement as I see it.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by Simon_Jester »

The Monroe Doctrine was aimed at keeping Europeans out of the Americas, not the other way around. Sort of an "Oi! You! Get off of my hemisphere!" thing.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by ryacko »

Elheru Aran wrote:Ryacko,

Do bear in mind that while the Declaration of Independence was important, the Constitution did render it moot; furthermore, the Articles of Confederation had done the same, only earlier. The DoI is mainly a document enumerating the reasons why we wanted independence. I would argue that the Constitution, specifically the original Bill of Rights, are the 'founding principles'.

Never mind that the DoI didn't actually found the United States in the first place, it just declared the states' independence from the British Empire... it does use the term 'the United States of America', but only in the context that the representatives of the thirteen states had consented to this document; the states were still independent entities linked by geography, economy, and the British colonial regime. As far as I recall, the states had not held any form of popular vote to consolidate as a country in 1776, and would not until the Articles of Confederation were passed.
Actually the Declaration of Independence was a rallying cry for acts of terrorism and guerrilla warfare against the British Empire.



I wonder how you would react if I quoted a document from WWII. I suppose I would have to agree that the United Nations was not formed until after WWII.
The point of this, is that we should probably empathize more with terrorists who attack our cities and troops.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by Elheru Aran »

...the founding charter of the United Nations actually was signed after the European theater of WWII ended, and didn't go into effect until after WWII ended in Asia. It can be safely said that the existence of the UN was irrelevant until then. And what's the point of quoting a document from WWII? Keep it relevant.

You missed my point, though. I'm asserting that there is a case that the Constitution and Bill of Rights are the founding principles of the US rather than the DoI. Sure, it's nice to examine the DoI and all, but it's not what the United States is governed by; that's the Constitution, which has been tweaked as necessary as time went by (see amendments regarding slavery, Prohibition, and the voting age). The only thing examining the DoI really does is show us the mentality of the representatives who decided to secede from the British colonial regime and what they put forth as causes for this secession. It shows some of what they believed in, but it doesn't really set it forth like the Constitution does.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by ryacko »

I just want to be clear.

You see no irony whatsoever in a nation which revolted due to the violations of rights by a foreign government, much of which is being replicated in the current war on terror?
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by Knife »

Damn, was wondering why those Marines were staying in my basement. Durn Gobment.

So, no. I don't see the irony. Some of the bullshit the last decade violates all sorts of shit we've laid down the last 100 years, but little of it resembles, or would be even that remarkable, in 1780.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

What, exactly, are you referring to, here? Since when has the US had various coups and juntas? And even if it had, how does this invalidate the fact that this country is significantly better off socially, economically, and in just about every possible respect than it was in 1774?
I'm talking about interfering in other nations' affairs. And I've already pointed out that the progress made since 1774 concerns Americans, not foreigners who don't live there.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by General Mung Beans »

Knife wrote:Damn, was wondering why those Marines were staying in my basement. Durn Gobment.

So, no. I don't see the irony. Some of the bullshit the last decade violates all sorts of shit we've laid down the last 100 years, but little of it resembles, or would be even that remarkable, in 1780.
Nor is it unique to the last decade, just look at the Alien and Sedition Acts, Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpas, Wilson's imprisonment of Debs and others who opposed WWI, or FDR's internment of Japanese-Americans.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Dr. Trainwreck wrote:And I've already pointed out that the progress made since 1774 concerns Americans, not foreigners who don't live there.
Your argument is still wrong, due to the abolition of the slave trade since 1774.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

Your argument is still wrong, due to the abolition of the slave trade since 1774.
Eh? Care to explain? I meant that any progress made in America concerns those who live there and see their lives improved.
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Re: Has the US violated our founding principles?

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Dr. Trainwreck wrote:Eh? Care to explain? I meant that any progress made in America concerns those who live there and see their lives improved.
So the abolition of the slave trade had no effect whatsoever on anybody outside the United States then?
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