The Force and Phase Cloaking

[Enola Straight]

When Ro Laren and Geordi LaForge were accidentaly phase cloaked, Deanna Troi was unable to sense them.

If Betazoid telepathy works the same way as Force Telepathy, would the cloaked vessel or personell be "invisible" to Jedi or Sith?

[Lord Pounder]

Not particularily. The SHIP will be cloaked not the actual people. IN Heir to the Empire, Thrawns Mad Jedi was able to still detect the men in the cloakeked ships even though he couldn't see or feel the ship.

[Eframepilot]

Phase cloaking is a different kind of cloak. Troi can see through ordinary Romulan cloaks as well.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

As long as you exist...

[Eframepilot]

Not particularily. The SHIP will be cloaked not the actual people. IN Heir to the Empire, Thrawns Mad Jedi was able to still detect the men in the cloakeked ships even though he couldn't see or feel the ship.

The people WILL be cloaked too, or else they would be visible "floating in space" right through the ship.

[Lord Pounder]

No moron they are surrounded by the cloak they are no cloaked themselves.

[TheDarkling]

Thank to NJO almost all force based questions with relation to ST can be answered with "doesn't matter ST people must operate on another force frequency and thus Jedi/Soth will be blind and powerless against them".

The reason for this is simple, they don't display force like powers (similiar on occasion) and since this can be explained with the new theory of the force it's easy to conclude they operate on a different force frequency.

[TheDarkling]

No moron they are surrounded by the cloak they are no cloaked themselves.

Yeah which is why when they went into that asteroid they all hit it and floated off into the cold of space, ah I remember that episode of TNG well...... ermm wait

The contents of the ship were out of phase just like the actual ship was, I do however caution against seeing the transporter phase cloaking and actual phase cloaking as exactly the same thing.

[Kerneth]

Wow, someone's been completely ignoring every argument that's been raised that says the Force can affect anything that isn't Yuuzhan Vong.

Let's try this again, from the top.
The Yuuzhan Vong are immune to the Force because of a specific genetic sequence that is unique to them and to their biological weapons, as per "Destiny's Way" when Danni Quee mentions that there's a weird genetic sequence found in the Yuuzhan Vong and all of their creatures that doesn't appear anywhere else in the galaxy, and that aside from that sequence the Yuuzhan Vong biology is completely normal. Anything without this genetic sequence can be affected through the Force. Ergo, until you can prove that creatures in the Star Trek universe have the same genetic sequencing as the Yuuzhan Vong, they can be affected by the Force.

The Force can affect every alien species in the Star Wars galaxy, and can affect inanimate objects that have *no* genetic sequencing. Therefore, the argument "Star Trek genetics are different from Star Wars genetics, thus the Force won't affect Star Trek" won't wash without further proof that Star Trek genetics have something weird about them that makes them Force immune. Unless you'd like to argue that a Hutt, a Barabel, or a Gand has the same genetic sequencing as a human.

I'm also going to point out that a Jedi could detect a phase-cloaked ship, granting the assumption that such a cloak would allow the ship itself to be undetectable in the Force, by the Jedi simply *looking for where the damned ship doesn't show up in the Force* in the same way they can detect the presence of Yuuzhan Vong by the "holes in the Force".

[TheDarkling]

Except they won't be a hole in the force because the normal matter that occupies that space is still there (for example the asteroid is still there giving off its force "vibes" or what have you so the Jedi don't detect a gap).

I'm also less than convinced by that genetic structure answer (a specific gene sequence causes the force to shift in frequency ) however if its stated that that is the cause then so be it, (I have yet to read Destiny way - blasted Amazon taking to long).

[Darth Fanboy]

You dont knw for sure that it is that genetic sequence that is doing it, that genetic signature could very well be part of the process involved with all of the bioengineering that goes on in Vong science.

Once the NJO is finished I think at least some of the mystery will be unraveled.

The Vong however have become easy for Jedi to detect because all they have to do is look for that "void" in the force and even then lightsaber combat, precog, force lightning, hurling rocks. that all still works. The argument of Force frequencies is then kind of negated. Not completely, but assuming i'm correct (which may not be the case granted).

back to the thread topic, I think Troi couldn't sense them because all she can do is pick up emotion and not actually sense the life energy of a being likea Jedi. Of course, assuming the cloaked being could be sensed.

[Queeb Salaron]

It seems to me that Force Cloaking is an entirely different ballgame.
First of all, in the SW Universe you have to understand that there is simply ONE "magical" source from which all Force-based actions are drawn. If anyone's ever read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, you'll recognize this to be similar to the One Power. But because the SW Universe exists solely within the bounds of Force limitations, there is no evidence to support whether the actions of people operating from within a different "magical" source would be effective.
On the other end of the spectrum, however, there ARE more than one "magical" sources in ST. And, as we see with certain characters' ability to see through Phase cloaking, there is a possibility for cloaks to be ineffective. Could Jedi/Sith use their own Force abilities to interact with a foreign cloak and uncloak a ship from the outside? Is the interaction between the Force and, say, Betazoid telepathy even possible? I have no clue. But it'd be a fun Versus.

[Kuja]

When Ro Laren and Geordi LaForge were accidentaly phase cloaked, Deanna Troi was unable to sense them.

Ah, that classic episode where walls and people were no barrier at all, yet the floor remained comepletely solid...hmmmm.

[Darth Wong]

I'm also less than convinced by that genetic structure answer (a specific gene sequence causes the force to shift in frequency )

I notice you ignored the part about how the Force affects inanimate objects; immunity to the Force is NOT a default condition as per your goofy theory.

[Darth Wong]

When Ro Laren and Geordi LaForge were accidentaly phase cloaked, Deanna Troi was unable to sense them.

Troi can only sense general emotions, and even that is not very accurate unless she is focusing on the person in question. You are assuming that there was no connection at all. How are you to know Troi didn't walk down the hall, sense some anxiety, and not think anything of it? She's bombarded with the emotions of a thousand people; how do you know she'll be bowled over if she feels some more emotions from Laren and Laforge?

[Queeb Salaron]

Except they won't be a hole in the force because the normal matter that occupies that space is still there (for example the asteroid is still there giving off its force "vibes" or what have you so the Jedi don't detect a gap)

You obviously don't know a whole lot about Force cloaking. When cloaked properly, a Jedi is undetectable even to another Jedi. His/her "Force 'vibes'" are as good as non-existent. It is possible for a Jedi to spread this kind of cloak around, say, an entire asteroid so that even the "vibes" given off by the entire system, asteroid and Jedi included, could not be felt. Essentially, even Yoda himself could neither see nor feel anything that was properly cloaked.
As for your argument about the genetic code, the Force has nothing to do with genetics. Force sensitivity is directly proportional to the midichlorian (sp?) count in the bloodstream. And while yes, this does affect an individual's ability to use the Force, it does not make that person any more or less perceptible to other Jedi.
My two cents.

[SPOOFE]

Lessee:

-Phase-cloaked objects will still be affected by floors. Check.
-Phase-cloaked objects will still be affected by gravity. Check.
-Phase-cloaked objects will still react chemically with the environment around them. Check.
-Phase-cloaked objects, contraray to popular belief, are still detectable from realspace (you just have to know what to look for). Check.

I see no reason why Phase-cloaking will affect an object's susceptibility to a mystical power.

[Eframepilot]

When Ro Laren and Geordi LaForge were accidentaly phase cloaked, Deanna Troi was unable to sense them.

Troi can only sense general emotions, and even that is not very accurate unless she is focusing on the person in question. You are assuming that there was no connection at all. How are you to know Troi didn't walk down the hall, sense some anxiety, and not think anything of it? She's bombarded with the emotions of a thousand people; how do you know she'll be bowled over if she feels some more emotions from Laren and Laforge?

You're not giving Troi enough credit. Troi couldn't sense Geordi and Ro at all, or else she would have noticed emotions coming from people who weren't there as they literally walked through her. She can generally pinpoint the emotions to the people they come from. Geordi and Ro WERE invisible (or at least very muted) to her powers. Whether or not this implies anything about Jedi mental abilities vs. a real phase cloak is impossible to say.

[TheDarkling]

Queeb Salaron:
Ermmm go back and read what has been said the genetics theory isn't my idea and I even said I disagreed with it.

I also don't get your point about force cloaking, which is to say I understand it but I don't see how it is relevant.

Darth Wong: Because you decree that being unaffected by the force isn't a default status doesn't make it true now if you would like to offer some evidence....

The force does not exist in trek(in the same manner at least),we can plainly see this in how no one actually uses it and all powers simliar to it has alternate exlpanations and we now know that the force also doesn't exist (in the same manner at least) in some other life forms (and everything from their galaxy) it therefore seems rather reasonable to assume that the force in trek occupies a similar state to the force for the Vong.

The onus is on you to prove that the force acts in a similar manner to that in the main SW galaxy instead of in a different version which seems to fit the facts at hand.

[Slartibartfast]

Darth Wong: Because you decree that being unaffected by the force isn't a default status doesn't make it true now if you would like to offer some evidence....

I read his post, and noticed that he said that since INANIMATE objects are affected by the force, immunity isn't a default status. Why don't you read the entire posts? Do you selectively block stuff in your mind?

Do inanimate objects have a special "genetic" sequence that makes them susceptible to the force? They would have to, if your theory that only SW people is affected because they have some sort of Force-sensitive genetic code is correct.

[Carboxylus]

but if you notice the ship was clocked not the people in it it just hid the people in it so there for you would be able to still detect them

[TheDarkling]

Darth Wong: Because you decree that being unaffected by the force isn't a default status doesn't make it true now if you would like to offer some evidence....

I read his post, and noticed that he said that since INANIMATE objects are affected by the force, immunity isn't a default status. Why don't you read the entire posts? Do you selectively block stuff in your mind?

Do inanimate objects have a special "genetic" sequence that makes them susceptible to the force? They would have to, if your theory that only SW people is affected because they have some sort of Force-sensitive genetic code is correct.

No I did read his post however we know that the Vong have the force aswell just its different for them.

Now when the Jedi have been no Vong ships have they been able to throw around rocks or dirt (which don't have DNA last time I checked), I don't recall such incidents but if they have happened then it goes along way to proving your theory.

That being said with the seeming absence of the normal force in trek it points to trek having something similiar, after all if the force can be affected by DNA differences and most trek races must have very similar DNA (to interbreed) then it's not to far a leap to assume that they must have something similar (it can't be proven but this explains the absence of the force in trek and fits in with what we know of trek races and their common DNA).

And again we see no evidence of the force in trek, although there are psi abilities these have never been put forth as being used with a magical energy field and seem to biologically based (most memebrs of a species are either teep or not teep), so with little evidence of the force (as the SW galaxy knows it) it seems most reasonable to assume that for some reason Trek operates on a different force frequency, at best the issue of the force in trek is undecided and can't just be assumed to exist there (unless the link between Vong DNA and the force redshifting can be proven although that doesn't really help the case).

[Queeb Salaron]

[quote="TheDarkling]Now when the Jedi have been no Vong ships have they been able to throw around rocks or dirt (which don't have DNA last time I checked), I don't recall such incidents but if they have happened then it goes along way to proving your theory.

That being said with the seeming absence of the normal force in trek it points to trek having something similiar, after all if the force can be affected by DNA differences and most trek races must have very similar DNA (to interbreed) then it's not to far a leap to assume that they must have something similar (it can't be proven but this explains the absence of the force in trek and fits in with what we know of trek races and their common DNA).

And again we see no evidence of the force in trek, although there are psi abilities these have never been put forth as being used with a magical energy field and seem to biologically based (most memebrs of a species are either teep or not teep), so with little evidence of the force (as the SW galaxy knows it) it seems most reasonable to assume that for some reason Trek operates on a different force frequency, at best the issue of the force in trek is undecided and can't just be assumed to exist there (unless the link between Vong DNA and the force redshifting can be proven although that doesn't really help the case).[/quote]

First of all, your brilliant conclusion that there is no DNA in rocks is astounding. Well done.
Second of all, I'll say this again. Force sensitivity is NOT, repeat, IS NOT affected by DNA! In living ANIMATE creatures, the ability to MANIPULATE the Force is determined by midichlorian count (not DNA). But just because something does not have DNA does not mean it has nothing to do with the Force. After all, we're talking about a life-force, a power that permeates even rocks and dirt. All living things are connected by the Force. If this is true, then it's easy to see where the Force COULD be present in ST. The only reason it's not (or, rather, that it's possibly present in a different form) is because no one knows how to use it. Jedi are, after all, a rare brood.
The point I'm trying to make is this: Because under Jedi doctrine ALL living things are connected by the Force (there is no reference to the existence of a parallel universe in Jedi doctrine) it stands to reason that all living things in the ST universe would be bound together by the Force. Regardless of if anyone knows it or not, or if anyone knows how to manipulate this lifeforce, it should, theoretically, exist.
Of course, this idea is precluded by the fact that I could be wrong about this.

[Col. Crackpot]

but if you notice the ship was clocked not the people in it it just hid the people in it so there for you would be able to still detect them

huh? are you drunk son?

[Kuja]

The force does not exist in trek(in the same manner at least),we can plainly see this in how no one actually uses it and all powers simliar to it has alternate exlpanations and we now know that the force also doesn't exist (in the same manner at least) in some other life forms (and everything from their galaxy) it therefore seems rather reasonable to assume that the force in trek occupies a similar state to the force for the Vong.

Bullshit. The Jedi had millenia to learn about the Force and begin harnessing it for their own purposes. IIRC, no one in ST has been spacefaring for tens of thousands of years. The added fact that the ST community is far smaller than the SW community means that force-senstives will be fewer in number (and when Force-senstivies number about a few thousand in a galaxy of trillions, that MEANS something) and their sensitivity will either be nonapparant or manifest itself as weak telepathic or telekinetic power. In other words, there will be one or two freaks in a galaxy of thousands.