Light Sabers and Physics

[Metahive]

Jedi training might give them the ability to hold their breaths for a longer time, but at no point in either the movies or the series does the Force confer enhanced damage protection outside of heightened reflexes*. The Jedi are not Bene Gesserit who do have the stated ability to alter their body chemistry at will.

Wait what? So we're not counting things like Anakin's freefall and impact onto Zam's speeder in AotC as enhanced damage protection? Or how about Luke (still a relative novice Force user) enduring multiple impacts with large metal fixtures thrown at him by Vader and then the subsequent fall out of Cloud City in TESB? I'd certainly say that Maul surviving being bisected points toward Force users being far more durable than a regular person.

No. First, Maul is an alien, so weird alien biology can account for that. I mean FFS, Qui-Gon suffers a much smaller wound but dies from it.

Second, regular humans can accomplish similar feats in the SW universe. In AOTC when Padme (non Force-sensitive, scantily-clad) falls out of a transport flying at pursuit speed, she doesn't end up as a smear on the ground, in fact, she's barely hurt at all. Earlier in that movie she jumps down from a high pillar crotch first on a hard surface and also manages to do so unscathed. If regular humans can survive crippling accidents like that, then Jedi doing the same are obviously not doing anything special.

There is also the rather obvious point that when Anakin loses the duel on Mustafar, he (and his clothing) immediately burst into flame and he has third degree burns everywhere but his artificial arm. Clearly, there is ridiculous temperature there near the lava river (as there should be), but Obi-Wan, standing 2m away, is absolutely fine. There must be some sort of active intervention going on for it to switch off like that.

Either Mustafar was a hazardous environment or it wasn't. You can't have it both ways. IF Mustafar was that dangerous, than yes, that means Anakin and Ben managed to hop all over the place without being in any way roasted to death, poisoned, or asphyxiated. Either Mustafar is that dangerous a place yet Jedi can deal with it pretty casually (at least for a while) or it's not all that dangerous to begin with. You have to picl one, as that is what we see happen in the movie.

That's not due to special Force powers, that's due to hoary old pulp-sci-fi conventions. Lava is only dangerous if you touch it, seen a thousand times in many other movies. Same with almost all planets in the universe having breathable atmospheres even if they really shouldn't. Seen a thousand times before, too.

Here's evidence that this is in effect rather than a special Force power. During the Citadel arc, Tarkin, a non-Force sensitive, non-special and unprotected human managed to survive just fine on a planet that looks like this:



A volcanic planet, just like Mustafar. In fact, it being cleaved in half should make it even less hospitable than Mustafar even. It's used as a prison planet, so there being an artificial atmosphere beyond the prison complex makes no sense. Once again, if a regular human being can do it, then the Jedi doing it is nothing special.

Isn't Ashoka a padawan that is still learning? Maybe not quite the clear cut victory you seem to think it is.

So, then why didn't Anakin order here to don a protective suit?

[Ziggy Stardust]

4
That's not due to special Force powers, that's due to hoary old pulp-sci-fi conventions. Lava is only dangerous if you touch it, seen a thousand times in many other movies. Same with almost all planets in the universe having breathable atmospheres even if they really shouldn't. Seen a thousand times before, too.

I see you conveniently ignored my post. So I will say this again: you can't use out-of-universe rationalizations for an in-universe argument. That's idiotic. Unless your argument is that Mustafar is actually a very safe place to be, and that the lava there is not real lava, you don't have a fucking argument.

By your logic, I can definitely prove that the USS Enterprise would beat the Death Star in a straight up fight because, according to hoary old pup-sci-fi conventions, the GOOD GUYS ALWAYS WIN.

[Terralthra]

There is also the rather obvious point that when Anakin loses the duel on Mustafar, he (and his clothing) immediately burst into flame and he has third degree burns everywhere but his artificial arm. Clearly, there is ridiculous temperature there near the lava river (as there should be), but Obi-Wan, standing 2m away, is absolutely fine. There must be some sort of active intervention going on for it to switch off like that.

Either Mustafar was a hazardous environment or it wasn't. You can't have it both ways. IF Mustafar was that dangerous, than yes, that means Anakin and Ben managed to hop all over the place without being in any way roasted to death, poisoned, or asphyxiated. Either Mustafar is that dangerous a place yet Jedi can deal with it pretty casually (at least for a while) or it's not all that dangerous to begin with. You have to picl one, as that is what we see happen in the movie.

That's not due to special Force powers, that's due to hoary old pulp-sci-fi conventions. Lava is only dangerous if you touch it, seen a thousand times in many other movies. Same with almost all planets in the universe having breathable atmospheres even if they really shouldn't. Seen a thousand times before, too.

I see you glossed over my post in favor of repeating your assertions. Anakin is lying on the same ground, on fire and smoldering, with third-degree burns all over, that Obi-Wan was standing on, just moments before. He even lays there for a minute raging at Obi-Wan before he catches fire. You can say "oh dramatic effect blah blah" but that's abandoning trying to figure out what Jedi can and can't do in favor of analyzing what George Lucas can and can't do.

This is on top of the visuals of the duel clearly showing the shields around the facility being turned off. Clearly, the lava is hot and the environment inhospitable, else why have shields in the first place?

[Metahive]

I see you conveniently ignored my post. So I will say this again: you can't use out-of-universe rationalizations for an in-universe argument. That's idiotic. Unless your argument is that Mustafar is actually a very safe place to be, and that the lava there is not real lava, you don't have a fucking argument.

By your logic, I can definitely prove that the USS Enterprise would beat the Death Star in a straight up fight because, according to hoary old pup-sci-fi conventions, the GOOD GUYS ALWAYS WIN.

Goddammit! Why the fuck do you think I brought up Tarkin surviving on Lola Mayu without any sort of fancy Force powers or an environmental suit? Here, put your coke-bottle glasses on and read:

Once again, if a regular human being can do it then the Jedi doing it is nothing special

That's the argument. In the SW universe regular human beings can survive certain hostile environments such as volcanic death worlds just fine. That's why I don't take the Mustafar duel as evidence for any sort of special Force power. Got it now?

I see you glossed over my post in favor of repeating your assertions. Anakin is lying on the same ground, on fire and smoldering, with third-degree burns all over, that Obi-Wan was standing on, just moments before. He even lays there for a minute raging at Obi-Wan before he catches fire. You can say "oh dramatic effect blah blah" but that's abandoning trying to figure out what Jedi can and can't do in favor of analyzing what George Lucas can and can't do.

He's for sure not lying on the same ground Obi Wan stood on. After he's mutilated he rolls down near the edge of the lava. He's frantically trying to crawl upwards while he's spitting lines at Obi Wan, but instead slides further down until he catches fire. There are no "third-degree burns all over" before that happens. Lava only hurting if one's nearly touching it is perfectly consistent with the rules the rest of humanity obeys in the SW universe, since the whole universe runs on such pulp sci-fi conventions. It for sure as hell doesn't denote any fancy Force power.

Here's some more evidence against such an idea:



That's Obi Wan and Anakin on an ice planet, wrapped in warm clothing to protect them from the cold. Riddle me this, if the Force can keep them cool on a volcano planet, why can't it keep them warm on a glacier planet, huh?

[avatarxprime]

Jedi training might give them the ability to hold their breaths for a longer time, but at no point in either the movies or the series does the Force confer enhanced damage protection outside of heightened reflexes*. The Jedi are not Bene Gesserit who do have the stated ability to alter their body chemistry at will.

Wait what? So we're not counting things like Anakin's freefall and impact onto Zam's speeder in AotC as enhanced damage protection? Or how about Luke (still a relative novice Force user) enduring multiple impacts with large metal fixtures thrown at him by Vader and then the subsequent fall out of Cloud City in TESB? I'd certainly say that Maul surviving being bisected points toward Force users being far more durable than a regular person.

No. First, Maul is an alien, so weird alien biology can account for that. I mean FFS, Qui-Gon suffers a much smaller wound but dies from it.

So you will of course be more than happy to provide some kind of reference to Maul's species being capable of surviving such catastrophic injuries beyond Qui Gon dying to a smaller injury.

Second, regular humans can accomplish similar feats in the SW universe. In AOTC when Padme (non Force-sensitive, scantily-clad) falls out of a transport flying at pursuit speed, she doesn't end up as a smear on the ground, in fact, she's barely hurt at all. Earlier in that movie she jumps down from a high pillar crotch first on a hard surface and also manages to do so unscathed. If regular humans can survive crippling accidents like that, then Jedi doing the same are obviously not doing anything special.

As to her first fall, the gunship was moving slow enough that Padme, Anakin, and Obi wan could all talk to each other without the wind shear obscuring everything they were saying. When she did fall, the gunship was even close to the ground and she is clearly seen rolling down the sand dune, which would help deal with the energy of the impact. For her second fall, that was at most a fall of 20 feet, not something that is guaranteed to be a crippling accident.

However, if you wanna go with SW humans having durability that would make comic book humans look like pathetic weaklings, that's fine too. That should certainly deal with your issues about Tarkin then.

[StarSword]

That's Obi Wan and Anakin on an ice planet, wrapped in warm clothing to protect them from the cold. Riddle me this, if the Force can keep them cool on a volcano planet, why can't it keep them warm on a glacier planet, huh?

Try the convenience argument again. Jedi Search has an example of Luke literally walking on lava and using the Force to keep himself safe. It involves a constant expenditure of energy on his part, whereas wearing warm clothes just requires you to put them on.

As for Tarkin ... sorry, I got nothing. That falls under what TV Tropes so eloquently terms "Convection Schmonvection".