Shooting discussion devolves

[Havok]

I love talk about magazine sizes and clips... awesome misdirection.

It is what they interlock with that concerns me. I've been shot at. I wasn't concerned about the clip size or if it were legal or not.

The point that I made earlier in the thread is that pistols do the job just fucking fine, clearly. When I made my point about assault rifles, it wasn't in regard to their existence, it was in regards to the idiotic arguments made by Pro-Gun people. Again, CLEARLY, pistols do the job just fucking fine. According to their arguments, bats and sticks do the job just fine too.

And I agree Stark it shouldn't be B&W, I like guns. They are fucking cool and awesome, and when someone points a gun at me, I want to be able to point one back (MAD baby FTW) but I am honest about why I like and want them. The Pro-Gun lobby lies about them and hides behind the 2nd Amendment, as if fucking amendments can't be wrong, or corrected *cough*21*cough*.

And for the record, not one person said or even insinuated either 'keep guns legal regardless the cost' or 'omg destroy all guns and imprison all gun owners instantly'. Even idiots like Lonestar and Crazy Pants Duchess realize the need for control, they just want it in a much laxer fashion than others.

[Alkaloid]

Since guns are banned in China... (you know, police state tyranny and oppression)

What the fuck is your point, man? That people are arseholes? Because it proves fuck all about gun control except that guns are easier to kill people with than knives. Also that example has been brought up about 3 pages ago. It's helpful to read what people post before just spamming shit in any context.

[Losonti Tokash]

[Stark]

But its the knee-jerk narrative (and factionalism which is pretty obvious here) that means any discussion of these issues is basically doomed. It doesn't help that the gun control 'faction' (I call them ZERO HEROES) are actually as stupid/oppressive as the cowboys say they are, and actually will misuse gun control measures for stupid/no impact reasons that help nothing but the anti-gun control/worship second amendment position.

Its just sad that it isn't about people or victims or crimes; its about what each team is afraid the other is capable of. The middle ground isn't empty; its non-existent. Actual meaningful solutions that are appropriate to the American situation and might actually shift culture and reduce tragedy shouldn't be untenable just because of these lame reasons.

[Hamstray]

So correct me if I'm wrong here, but...

Man in China attacks kids at a school with a knife, 22 wounded, no fatalities.

Man in Connecticut attacks kids at school with gun, 27 fatalities and more wounded.

Even one fatality is one too much. Turning this into gun debate, either side whether it's about the quantity of killings or the notion that other gun carriers could potentially avert such a situation, misses the underlying problem and is all just about symptom fighting. Most atrocities such as this one are committed by people who have given up on their own life and it's there where you should start working on prevention.

Seriously, how many companies need to make a .45? a 9mm? Who fucking needs an assault rifle for home protection. If all you gun people can kill me just as easily with a knife or a bat or a stick or a fucking rock, then apparently you don't need guns to protect yourself anyway.

Well since we are having a gun debate anyways:
Actually, needing guns for home protection and personal safety is bullshit anyways, especially needing concealed-carry handguns, as mentioned it would just result in shootouts anyways. As "the right to bear arms" was originally intended (to maintain a balance of power and possibly avert a police state) though letting people have military grade automatic rifles would actually do make more sense. Even better: let every household have RPGs and Stinger rockets. Those were never designed to kill people. They are pure defense weapons.
Problem is letting people have automatic rifles sort of cause a perverse incentive for Police to be tougher when it comes to raids. (should they even be doing those raids in the first place though? i.e.: as in the war on drugs these seem typical of a state of emergency rather than a rule of law. in my opinion one type of several human rights violations which can be attributed to that war, but that's a completely different story...)

p.s.: this thread grows too fast for my tastes, have some reading up to do. I see people dragging things already introduced earlier into the discussion (they must not have read much of the thread). Starting to lose oversight.

[Stark]

I don't think there's any meaningful discussion that's being lost. Although its pretty sad to say in response to Losonti's cartoon that I believe there actually have been cases recently where gun control people have indeed fulfilled the paranoid political fantasies of the cowboys, which only serves to reinforce the 'you guys get to die so I can have my sweet sweet guns' tragedy the is American fear culture.

[Nephtys]

It's only natural these threads become about gun control to some extent.

What's not natural is an utterly perplexing fixation on shit that doesn't matter. Oh no, someone used a commonly misapplied colloquial term for the name of the box that holds bullets in it! Oh, pardon me, I meant 'cartridges'.

I also can't imagine how people can possibly say with a straight face, that a knife or bat is just as easy to use to commit such mass killing horrors than a gun. Seriously. What about 'This one requires you to walk up and physically attack someone' vs 'this one requires you to point in a direction and pull a trigger' is that hard?

Again, all these ridiculous fallacies. As many people are killed by knives as they are by guns? If that's the case, why wouldn't you WANT to reduce the 'armed murder' number by up to half? Knives are edged tools that are required for day to day life. A gun is most certainly has no utility besides 'shooting for fun' and 'harming another human being'.

[Havok]

If only people like you hadn't trained them for generations to view the situation this way, I guess. Its not your kids that pay for it, but try to understand that cultural change is possible and often desirable... regardless of how flat-out retarded the gun control idiots are in your country.

I disagree. A culture change of this magnitude is impossible at this point. That'd be like suggesting that the people in the middle east, or the bible belt, should consider converting to atheism.

Bull and fucking shit. It is not that at all. Guns are not a core belief of Americans numbnuts and it is idiotic and propaganda brainwashing that makes you say so. The 2nd Amendment is a fucking CHANGE to the Constitution. The "Bill of Rights" is just a fancy name that idiots cling to as some magic sky pixie granted thing. That is not what it is, it is a a series of CHANGES to the Constitution because *GASP* it wasn't near fucking perfect. but every time a moron like you says stupid shit like you just did it makes it harder to change things for the better. Stop being part of the problem.

[Kamakazie Sith]

And I agree Stark it shouldn't be B&W, I like guns. They are fucking cool and awesome, and when someone points a gun at me, I want to be able to point one back (MAD baby FTW) but I am honest about why I like and want them. The Pro-Gun lobby lies about them and hides behind the 2nd Amendment, as if fucking amendments can't be wrong, or corrected *cough*21*cough*.

The 2nd amendment is an excellent place to hide. You cite the 21st amendment like it is on the same level as the 2nd. Come on man. People in the US loved liquor and that's why the 21st was easily passed. The people were behind it. Depending on the state you might have some behind regulation on the 2nd amendment and in those states you do have regulation but because we are all one big happy country people can travel. You would need a nationwide regulation of the 2nd amendment and that isn't going to happen because nationwide the people would be against it.

[Losonti Tokash]

Stark: I dunno, the closest thing I can think of to that would be the giant shitshow that was Canada's Long Gun registry, which Aaron knows way more about. I don't think that's even on the radar of most Americans.

[Havok]

As to why people go to the guns when shit like this happens?

It is because we all agree, I think it is safe to say, that mental health issues in this country are fucked and we all agree that it needs to be fixed. The clear and obvious solution for the short term is to make it harder or the mentally ill (or just the plain fucking evil) to do things like this. Let them go learn how to make bombs, or knife fight... I mean, at least make the fuckers work for it, don't just hand them the easiest way to carry out their fucked up desires.

[CaptHawkeye]

I don't think there's any meaningful discussion that's being lost. Although its pretty sad to say in response to Losonti's cartoon that I believe there actually have been cases recently where gun control people have indeed fulfilled the paranoid political fantasies of the cowboys, which only serves to reinforce the 'you guys get to die so I can have my sweet sweet guns' tragedy the is American fear culture.

I'm sad the discussion was diverted into because although it is a contributor to the shooting, it deserves less attention than the problem Duchess pointed out at the beginning (of which she was right but immediately lost credibility in my book by flying off her rocker at Hav) which is America's psychological culture. Gun control is only a contributor to this crime, not its root cause. The real issues that have to be addressed are the aspects of American culture that make violent crime seem like a favorable course of action in the first place.

I blame Far Cry 3. :V

[Havok]

And I agree Stark it shouldn't be B&W, I like guns. They are fucking cool and awesome, and when someone points a gun at me, I want to be able to point one back (MAD baby FTW) but I am honest about why I like and want them. The Pro-Gun lobby lies about them and hides behind the 2nd Amendment, as if fucking amendments can't be wrong, or corrected *cough*21*cough*.

The 2nd amendment is an excellent place to hide. You cite the 21st amendment like it is on the same level as the 2nd. Come on man. People in the US loved liquor and that's why the 21st was easily passed. The people were behind it. Depending on the state you might have some behind regulation on the 2nd amendment and in those states you do have regulation but because we are all one big happy country people can travel. You would need a nationwide regulation of the 2nd amendment and that isn't going to happen because nationwide the people would be against it.

Men in America loved women not voting too. Or those pesky blacks being free and having votes. Shit changes. I mean seriously, change "guns" to "women" and you can step right back into the past "Hur hur that is impossible to change!"

And my point wasn't about it being on par magnitude wise socially, (Although I would kill you all with assault rifles if you voted to ban my booze again) just the fact that the fucking Constitution isn't set in fucking stone and we as a country have recognized mistakes and have acted in an appropriate manner to fix them.

[Stark]

It'd be pretty embarassing if I got a Canadian gun control fiasco mixed up with America... but I guess it'd (politically) play into the cowboy lobby's hands anyway, because its an actual example of exactly what they've been basing their paranoia on for a century.

And Kamakaze Sith, your attitude is truly apalling and arguably flies in the face of experience. Broad cultural change is indeed possible even for strongly held beliefs - it just takes a really long time. Men used to view smoking, for instance, as a major part of their machismo and self-identity as men and would have violently resisted and derided any attempt to BAN TEH SMOKZ, and yet in maybe 20 years these attitudes have visibly shifted. It doesn't matter how long it takes to change attitudes that cost lives; if it takes 50 years to take smoking to 10% of what it was in the 80s, it was 50 years well spent for the tens of thousands of people who will have better lives and grow up not pre-addicted to smoking.

If its hard, and will take a long time, and we won't see the results in our own lifetime... is it useless? Is it better to let the situation rest so more people die and you and your zero hero counterparts can repost the same stupid shit? Or is it better to choose a better future and make it happen, one step at a time?

(PS I know the answer already because you're American and fear culture is self-defending)

[Havok]

I don't think there's any meaningful discussion that's being lost. Although its pretty sad to say in response to Losonti's cartoon that I believe there actually have been cases recently where gun control people have indeed fulfilled the paranoid political fantasies of the cowboys, which only serves to reinforce the 'you guys get to die so I can have my sweet sweet guns' tragedy the is American fear culture.

I'm sad the discussion was diverted into because although it is a contributor to the shooting, it deserves less attention than the problem Duchess pointed out at the beginning (of which she was right but immediately lost credibility in my book by flying off her rocker at Hav) which is America's psychological culture. Gun control is only a contributor to this crime, not its root cause. The real issues that have to be addressed are the aspects of American culture that make violent crime seem like a favorable course of action in the first place.

I blame Far Cry 3. :V

I agree with that, like I stated many times. We don't have any answers to fix mental health issues in our country. I don't mean the system to treat it (which from what I gather is crap as well) but I mean just the means to identify all of them in general and then the people that have them. That to me is a far larger problem, far more complicated, and a far scarier one, than guns.

[Aaron MkII]

Stark: I dunno, the closest thing I can think of to that would be the giant shitshow that was Canada's Long Gun registry, which Aaron knows way more about. I don't think that's even on the radar of most Americans.

Nah, the registry was just a list. The actual meat and potatoes is the Firearms Act which allows people like spouses to have a say in the licensing process and makes it a criminal offence to conceal certain conditions on the form.

A registry would be a non starter in America and wouldn't actually do anything to help this stuff.

[ray245]

Is there any indication that mental issue in the US is any worse than any other country in the world, say Norway?

[Losonti Tokash]

But didn't they promise they wouldn't use it to go after people with guns that later became restricted and did anyway? That's part of the whole total disconnect between both sides that makes everything so fucked.

[weemadando]

Is there any indication that mental issue in the US is any worse than any other country in the world, say Norway?

In terms of incidence of mental health issues or availability of treatment?

[Aaron MkII]

But didn't they promise they wouldn't use it to go after people with guns that later became restricted and did anyway? That's part of the whole total disconnect between both sides that makes everything so fucked.

Well, yes and no. For example, the Type 97 (the original import) was classed as non restricted, imported and sold and then was claimed (rightly) to be wrongly classfied and confiscated as Prohibited.

The AP22 was confiscated after 27 years and no crimes committed because the RCMP were to stupid to realize it was already banned under a different name.

The major distrust is centered around the LPC and the coalition for gun control that regularly imply that owners are supplying crooks, that we beat our wives and we're on the edge.

You can't have a discussion when people aren't honest.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I disagree. A culture change of this magnitude is impossible at this point. That'd be like suggesting that the people in the middle east, or the bible belt, should consider converting to atheism.

Bull and fucking shit. It is not that at all. Guns are not a core belief of Americans numbnuts and it is idiotic and propaganda brainwashing that makes you say so. The 2nd Amendment is a fucking CHANGE to the Constitution. The "Bill of Rights" is just a fancy name that idiots cling to as some magic sky pixie granted thing. That is not what it is, it is a a series of CHANGES to the Constitution because *GASP* it wasn't near fucking perfect. but every time a moron like you says stupid shit like you just did it makes it harder to change things for the better. Stop being part of the problem.[/quote]


Let me get this straight. You counter my opinion with your own, then add a conspiracy theory unsupported by evidence, mix in some grade school level name calling (you can do better) and passive aggressiveness but I am the idiot. It is cute too, Havok. You remind me of a guy trying to be tough when he actually isn't.

The bill of rights is more than just changes, Havok. They are considered the most important laws in the land. Can they also be changed? Sure, but you need the support of the people. You don't have that in every state in regards to the 2nd amendment and in those states which have strong firearm ownership numbers and traditions you won't get that change. This then opens up an avenue for people living in heavy gun control states to buy weapons and transport them across the border. Need an example? Look at Mexico.

So, yeah. My points stands, turbo.

[Stark]

By using closed language, you are yourself ending the discussion. You can claim this is 'realistic' until you're blue in the face, but at least acknowledge that you are refusing to accept ideas.

When you say things like 'you won't get that to change', you are the problem. Obviously we understand this is because you like things the way they are and will thus dislike change, but as an adult you should accept this is a defensive response and not simply a 'realistic' one.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Men in America loved women not voting too. Or those pesky blacks being free and having votes. Shit changes. I mean seriously, change "guns" to "women" and you can step right back into the past "Hur hur that is impossible to change!"

Not even remotely the same thing.

And my point wasn't about it being on par magnitude wise socially, (Although I would kill you all with assault rifles if you voted to ban my booze again) just the fact that the fucking Constitution isn't set in fucking stone and we as a country have recognized mistakes and have acted in an appropriate manner to fix them.

Nobody is saying it is. What I am saying is that the current situation makes such a goal a waste of time to invest in. It makes much more sense to deal with the other social issues that are causing these mass shootings. Those issues are something most can get behind, unlike gun control.

[CaptHawkeye]

Just because *you're* a broken defeatist doesn't mean everyone else must be.

[Kamakazie Sith]

And Kamakaze Sith, your attitude is truly apalling and arguably flies in the face of experience. Broad cultural change is indeed possible even for strongly held beliefs - it just takes a really long time. Men used to view smoking, for instance, as a major part of their machismo and self-identity as men and would have violently resisted and derided any attempt to BAN TEH SMOKZ, and yet in maybe 20 years these attitudes have visibly shifted. It doesn't matter how long it takes to change attitudes that cost lives; if it takes 50 years to take smoking to 10% of what it was in the 80s, it was 50 years well spent for the tens of thousands of people who will have better lives and grow up not pre-addicted to smoking.

If its hard, and will take a long time, and we won't see the results in our own lifetime... is it useless? Is it better to let the situation rest so more people die and you and your zero hero counterparts can repost the same stupid shit? Or is it better to choose a better future and make it happen, one step at a time?

(PS I know the answer already because you're American and fear culture is self-defending)

I'm glad you find it appalling. Really, I am. Especially when you ignore the totality of my position.

I'll give you that the word "impossible" was the wrong word. I'll go back to "waste of time". That work for you, sweet cheeks?