Stark wrote:By using closed language, you are yourself ending the discussion. You can claim this is 'realistic' until you're blue in the face, but at least acknowledge that you are refusing to accept ideas.
When you say things like 'you won't get that to change', you are the problem. Obviously we understand this is because you like things the way they are and will thus dislike change, but as an adult you should accept this is a defensive response and not simply a 'realistic' one.
Actually, I don't like the way things are. That is what I like about you Stark. You're actually stupid enough to really believe you have people figured out.
My position is MUCH more than "you won't get it to change so do nothing". You're just an idiot that can only focus on one thing. Gun control/regulation is the least important out of the social issues that cause these events. Focusing on my use of the word impossible caused you to miss the totality of what I am saying. I forgive you though.
ray245 wrote:Is there any indication that mental issue in the US is any worse than any other country in the world, say Norway?
If my father's experience as one of the last state employed psychologists for short to intermediate term care in Maryland(one of the more progressive states as far as these things go) then Norway would have to be better. Almost all care that used to be state run was over the last 10-15 years shifted over to non-profit or for-profit administration, every time someone would retire from where my father worked, they just wouldn't replace them, so more work and more violent patients were forced on fewer and fewer doctors, and many patients were forced out into the street way before they were really able to function due to increasing pressure from the judge who oversaw the short term programs to increase turnover due to backlogs of people in the system. Psych care is one of the first things to get cut whenever there's a budget crisis, because many people don't believe it actually works at all.
Problem is, that debate is even more lost and settled than the gun control one.
I'd just to point out that this juvenile back and forth continues to poison the well. Everytime you flippantly respond you reinforce your opponents opinion of you. I'm an "activist" for gun rights here and I see it way to much.
Havok wrote:
Men in America loved women not voting too. Or those pesky blacks being free and having votes. Shit changes. I mean seriously, change "guns" to "women" and you can step right back into the past "Hur hur that is impossible to change!"
Not even remotely the same thing.
Explain why.
And my point wasn't about it being on par magnitude wise socially, (Although I would kill you all with assault rifles if you voted to ban my booze again) just the fact that the fucking Constitution isn't set in fucking stone and we as a country have recognized mistakes and have acted in an appropriate manner to fix them.
Nobody is saying it is. What I am saying is that the current situation makes such a goal a waste of time to invest in. It makes much more sense to deal with the other social issues that are causing these mass shootings. Those issues are something most can get behind, unlike gun control.
And my point is, you colossally closed minded fucking idiot, "waste of time to invest in" is the same shit idiots said when black people wanted to be free or when women wanted to vote or when England was still the mother country you ignorant fucking dick. Oh no, can't have change IMPOSSIBLE!
And whaaa whaaa havok called me names, grow up idiot.
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it. Blank Yellow (NSFW)
And that's probably the real problem; that both sides are just as childish as Kamakaze Sith and both true believers in whatever their philosophy is. There's no room to move from either retarded extreme because ... well... because the people who hold those extremes don't want there to be. Both sides are too afraid to compromise.
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Actually, I don't like the way things are. That is what I like about you Stark. You're actually stupid enough to really believe you have people figured out.
My position is MUCH more than "you won't get it to change so do nothing". You're just an idiot that can only focus on one thing. Gun control/regulation is the least important out of the social issues that cause these events. Focusing on my use of the word impossible caused you to miss the totality of what I am saying. I forgive you though.
Oh go fuck yourself you ignoramus. You're a total god damn coward and are just pissing and moaning everyone else isn't too.
Stark wrote:And that's probably the real problem; that both sides are just as childish as Kamakaze Sith and both true believers in whatever their philosophy is. There's no room to move from either retarded extreme because ... well... because the people who hold those extremes don't want there to be. Both sides are too afraid to compromise.
Yeah, the only acceptable victory is total victory here. And any suggestion otherwise basically gets you exiled.
Stark wrote:By using closed language, you are yourself ending the discussion. You can claim this is 'realistic' until you're blue in the face, but at least acknowledge that you are refusing to accept ideas.
When you say things like 'you won't get that to change', you are the problem. Obviously we understand this is because you like things the way they are and will thus dislike change, but as an adult you should accept this is a defensive response and not simply a 'realistic' one.
Actually, I don't like the way things are. That is what I like about you Stark. You're actually stupid enough to really believe you have people figured out.
My position is MUCH more than "you won't get it to change so do nothing". You're just an idiot that can only focus on one thing. Gun control/regulation is the least important out of the social issues that cause these events. Focusing on my use of the word impossible caused you to miss the totality of what I am saying. I forgive you though.
So you can only focus on one social change at a time because you are what... 5?
Oh and shocking, when you say you think something is impossible to change people think you mean that.
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it. Blank Yellow (NSFW)
What shit me this morning were all tweets about "he used a .233 rifle like this one, it's legal! (insert picture of tacticooled M4-alike)".
Why? Because if he didn't use that exact one then shitheads like the "its not a clip" brigade and the NRA will use it as an excuse to ignore all legitimate argument.
I guess - like Hav says - this is how social pressures have always tried to stop social change. I just think the education for either camp is so invasive in American society that there's little hope of people who are more open ever emerging (well, beyond people who basically don't care and thus don't vote on it).
Stark wrote:And that's probably the real problem; that both sides are just as childish as Kamakaze Sith and both true believers in whatever their philosophy is. There's no room to move from either retarded extreme because ... well... because the people who hold those extremes don't want there to be. Both sides are too afraid to compromise.
Yeah, the only acceptable victory is total victory here. And any suggestion otherwise basically gets you exiled.
Stark's and Hav's calling for sweeping change to American culture strikes you as more of a problem then Sith's narrow minded whimpering?
If you're not actually being sarcastic though then I may have you wrong.
What pisses me off, especially here, is that the pro gun side just doesn't want the discussion at all. And when you have it, they throw around ridiculous bullshit that's so easy to refute even I can do it. I mean really, I'm not anti-gun, I'm anti-gun massacre. I think responsible adults should be allowed to own firearms, but with that, they need to be willing to give up the right to a hundred round drum magazine or a 30 round extended pistol magazine. And let's do background checks on every purchaser and not make gun laws based upon how a weapon looks, but rather on how it functions.
When it comes right down to it, though, if I have to choose between my guns and my societies security from random nutjobs, I go with security from random nutjobs. And yes, I know perfectly well that random nutjobs can circumvent laws. I mean people do build bombs. Guess we should make pipe bombs legal, too.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan
You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan
He who can, does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
He's speaking about the attitudes held by the extreme camps that dominate the issue. Aaron is pretty much what every gun owner I've met in Australia is like, ie not a frothing idiot.
No, Aaron is pretty clearly saying that the two sides are so psychotic that any middle ground position you take gets you absolutely blasted by each one no matter what.
Stark wrote:He's speaking about the attitudes held by the extreme camps that dominate the issue. Aaron is pretty much what every gun owner I've met in Australia is like, ie not a frothing idiot.
It's helps that significant, ongoing mental health screening is part of the requirements to get a firearms licence here.
Stark wrote:He's speaking about the attitudes held by the extreme camps that dominate the issue. Aaron is pretty much what every gun owner I've met in Australia is like, ie not a frothing idiot.
Sounds like I need to pack up myself and my guns and move there or Canada then.
Stark wrote:He's speaking about the attitudes held by the extreme camps that dominate the issue. Aaron is pretty much what every gun owner I've met in Australia is like, ie not a frothing idiot.
It's helps that significant, ongoing mental health screening is part of the requirements to get a firearms licence here.
How does that work? Ours basically requires you to find two people who have known you for a number of years (5 iirc) and the spouse to be aware of it. Of course concealing mental illness is illegal, but it does not always disqualify you. Obviously I have one and have PTSD.
References are part of it, along with questionnaires. I believe that there's an exemption for release of medical records to the police for the purpose of making this determination. In some cases referrals to a professional mental health assessment can also be part of the process.
Also, your licence has to be reviewed every 1-5yrs depending on your circumstances & type of licence.
(this is all based on my personal understanding - there may be more/less to it. Also each state can have variations)
Stark wrote:He's speaking about the attitudes held by the extreme camps that dominate the issue. Aaron is pretty much what every gun owner I've met in Australia is like, ie not a frothing idiot.
It's helps that significant, ongoing mental health screening is part of the requirements to get a firearms licence here.
How does that work? Ours basically requires you to find two people who have known you for a number of years (5 iirc) and the spouse to be aware of it. Of course concealing mental illness is illegal, but it does not always disqualify you. Obviously I have one and have PTSD.
Most of the gun owners here-- and I do mean NRA certified gun nuts-- would be qualified as mentally healthy by any valid mental health screening. Gotta remember, cultural norms are a factor in what is considered the distinction between healthy and crazy, and the kind of "us VS them" and "MY property! MINE" over-protectiveness that drives gun nuts to be so hostile and paranoid isn't unusual... well, pretty much anywhere in western culture, or even other cultures.
You could argue that stupidity is part of mental incompetency, but competence is a wider concept than "health/not healthy".
Last edited by Formless on 2012-12-14 08:17pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." —Shroom Man 777 "To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
I don't think there is any question that the majority of owners are mentally healthy. A look at how many shootings there are with how many owners there are that are responsible is going to be small.
Edit: can we reduce it through better screening? I honestly don't have an answer.
Exactly; I don't think its a major part of what makes gun nuts so... well, nuts. So prone to screeching even at people who agree with 90% of what they believe in.
edit:
Edit: can we reduce it through better screening? I honestly don't have an answer.
Well, it wouldn't help those who simply steal their murder weapon, or buy it through channels other than gun shops and so forth. But some sort of test of competence might help, such as proving that you won't knowingly loan your weapons to unsupervised idiots, or keeping your weapons locked in a safe where they are harder to steal. Stuff like that. Other than that, we simply need a better mental health system, period.
Last edited by Formless on 2012-12-14 08:25pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." —Shroom Man 777 "To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
Formless wrote:
Most of the gun owners here-- and I do mean NRA certified gun nuts-- would be qualified as mentally healthy by any valid mental health screening. Gotta remember, cultural norms are a factor in what is considered the distinction between healthy and crazy, and the kind of "us VS them" and "MY property! MINE" over-protectiveness that drives gun nuts to be so hostile and paranoid isn't unusual... well, pretty much anywhere in western culture, or even other cultures.
You could argue that stupidity is part of mental incompetency, but competence is a wider concept than "health/not healthy".
That's where other controls come in, you have to demonstrate "genuine need" (which can include sporting shooting and collecting) and strict storage and transport requirements. Even then, you have to apply for the privilege to own/possess individual weapons - just being licenced doesn't necessarily give you the right to purchase/own.
I have to wonder how many cases of domestic violence have remained as simple violence and not murders or other impulsive acts of violence/self harm avoided or deescalated due to the need to unlock a gun safe, remove trigger locks, unlock another safe, get ammo from that...
That was the reasoning behind safe storage here. Unfortunately it's abused to persecute.
The licensing process has generated a culture of absolute safety though. And a sense of social responsibility to police ourselves, in addition to the absolute responsibilities placed on us by law.
