North Korea successfully launches satellite

[PeZook]

Why are we still discussing a joke?

Because we're too anal to stop, I guess?

[Zinegata]

For the record, yes, I figured Thanas was joking. But such jokes often have a grain of truth in them and the Why? was reserved for the German Navy for even considering such a thing in a modern setting.

But anyway, it's a tangent and we're getting off-topic. I'll shut up about it now .

[Aaron MkII]

Lol, stand by for increased fear mongering. Maybe Obama should have ordered it shot down as a live fire exercise.

Yeah, that wouldn't be an act of war or precedent or anything. Though, why I feel Romney might have well ordered this?

That was sarcasm.

[Surlethe]

Wow, they're finally caught up to 1957! What will they do next, make a transistor?

Do you feel this way about any organisation achieving anything that has been done before? How is one to develop industrial, technical or organisational capability without being thus lambasted as backward?

Not at all. The point is that they are technologically and economically backward, and that's why it's taken them them this long to reinvent technology the developed world had in the 1960s. Besides the whole point of catchup growth is that developing countries don't need to reinvent the wheel - they can buy it or steal it from developed countries.

[Aaron MkII]

Well except for north korea, what with the embargo.

[Alkaloid]

Not at all like Iran. You can see the difference just by looking at the world at night - despite having four times the population density of Iran, almost everywhere except the capital is dark.

Uhh, that was more a commentary on the sort of people that poo poo the very idea of Iran ever being able to say, steal a US drone, and even if they did swear up and down it absolutely must have been because the US gave it to them as part of a super secret spy plot, yet at the same time exist in a state of perpetual panty clutching terror that Iran is seconds away from having enough nuclear weapons to star killing everyone, and how they are operating under the same mindset as people who dismiss the fact that North Korea has launched a satellite into orbit, a pretty significant technological achievement, as nothing because other people have done it before. It's quite silly.

Not at all. The point is that they are technologically and economically backward, and that's why it's taken them them this long to reinvent technology the developed world had in the 1960s. Besides the whole point of catchup growth is that developing countries don't need to reinvent the wheel - they can buy it or steal it from developed countries.

I suspect that's significantly more difficult for North Korea than it is for most other countries.

Edit: Dammit Aaron you so swift

[K. A. Pital]

Not at all. The point is that they are technologically and economically backward, and that's why it's taken them them this long to reinvent technology the developed world had in the 1960s. Besides the whole point of catchup growth is that developing countries don't need to reinvent the wheel - they can buy it or steal it from developed countries.

Uh... it's true that the DPRK is backward, but the actual political meaning is definetely not that DPRK is "replicating 1957" or something. Or doing it with zero political reasons.

If people in the thread would've been more attentive to other nations they'd note that South Korea as of yet hasn't launched a satellite
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/29/world/asi ... index.html

It's a micro-space race between SK and DPRK and Lil Kim is not interested in the fact that the US, USSR and others launched a satellite a long time ago. What is important - is to show that you can sort of do the same thing as SK, your love-hate brotherly nation over the parralel.

[Lord Zentei]

Well except for north korea, what with the embargo.

The embargo which exists because of North Korea's asinine behaviour. If Vietnam can get along with the USA nowadays, then NK has no excuse for not getting along with anyone but China.

[Stark]

How is that relevant to North Korea not actually having access to the international community's expertise and competence in space technology? Regardless of why they are embargoed or how it makes you feel, they (apparently) have an independent space program that meets milestones. It isn't less an achievement because it's easy for America (or because they should just be nicer and get free rockets). Its arguably a stupid waste of resources on a prestige project for a third world country, but such value judgements shouldn't cloud how hard this probably was for their project.

[Lord Zentei]

How is it anything but relevant to the fact that they don't have access to the international community's expertise and competence in anything?

Obviously it was a highly difficult project to accomplish on their own, I don't think anyone's denying that. But it would have been far easier to do without the embargo that is the direct result of the mentality that moved them to undertake the project in the first place. Not to mention the project of feeding their people - a task which would also be made far easier without their isolationist stance. Hell, if they would have an open economy, they could probably afford to do both.

[Stark]

... Are you unable to discuss the achievements of a nation you don't like without saying IF THEY DID WHAT I WANTED MORE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN EASIER? In particular, given Surlethe's dismissive response, if they truly have no access to shared information they may well have had to reinvent many wheels. This doesn't mean you should dismiss their achievement on political grounds; arguably it makes their achievement even greater by virtue of being independent.

If someone made a rocket by choosing to do so independently, and wasn't TEH EV0L NORKZ, would you also dismiss their achievement by saying haha they should have just not handicapped themselves?

[Aaron MkII]

Well except for north korea, what with the embargo.

The embargo which exists because of North Korea's asinine behaviour. If Vietnam can get along with the USA nowadays, then NK has no excuse for not getting along with anyone but China.

Dude, I don't care about the how and why of the embargo. I'm just pointing it out as an obstacle.

[Lord Zentei]

... Are you unable to discuss the achievements of a nation you don't like without saying IF THEY DID WHAT I WANTED MORE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN EASIER? In particular, given Surlethe's dismissive response, if they truly have no access to shared information they may well have had to reinvent many wheels. This doesn't mean you should dismiss their achievement on political grounds; arguably it makes their achievement even greater by virtue of being independent.

If someone made a rocket by choosing to do so independently, and wasn't TEH EV0L NORKZ, would you also dismiss their achievement by saying haha they should have just not handicapped themselves?

And are you incapable of understanding nuance? I'm not dismissing them out of hand, nor speaking in all-caps, so quit jerking your knees.

Dude, I don't care about the how and why of the embargo. I'm just pointing it out as an obstacle.

Ah, fair enough.

[K. A. Pital]

But it would have been far easier to do without the embargo

Would it? Very few nations have their own space programs, preferring to let others launch the satellites and such.

[Lord Zentei]

Yeah, it would. If nothing else, because then they would have had a bigger economy and thus more spare resources to devote to the project. And while few other countries have their own space programs, they can still have benefited from trade in prerequisite technology and materiel, which I rather suspect the UN embargo was supposed to keep away from them.

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah, it would. If nothing else, because then they would have had a bigger economy and thus more spare resources to devote to the project. And while few other countries have their own space programs, they can still have benefited from trade in prerequisite technology and materiel, which I rather suspect the UN embargo was supposed to keep away from them.

So why hasn't South Korea launched anything until now? I mean, the embargo obviously makes the goal harder to achieve. However, the absence of an embargo may tempt the nation to fortfeit such an endeavour entirely. Not that it's necessarily bad. Just that it might happen.

My position is obviously consistently anti-embargo.

[Lord Zentei]

Note that I said "far easier to do", not "more likely to be completed after the probability of it being undertaken in the first place is also taken into account".

As for your question, who knows. Even without an embargo North Korea's government might still be xenophobic pricks at least to some extent, or they might still be motivated by national pride and desire for splashy accomplishments to show those dirty capitalists, so there's still that. But that wasn't really my point.

[Surlethe]

Not at all. The point is that they are technologically and economically backward, and that's why it's taken them them this long to reinvent technology the developed world had in the 1960s. Besides the whole point of catchup growth is that developing countries don't need to reinvent the wheel - they can buy it or steal it from developed countries.

Uh... it's true that the DPRK is backward, but the actual political meaning is definetely not that DPRK is "replicating 1957" or something. Or doing it with zero political reasons.

Right, I'm not saying that DPRK's actions happen in a political vacuum. Just that you should expect the DPRK to be backwards because it doesn't have an economy and it's cut off from the rest of the world.

[General Zod]

Not at all. The point is that they are technologically and economically backward, and that's why it's taken them them this long to reinvent technology the developed world had in the 1960s. Besides the whole point of catchup growth is that developing countries don't need to reinvent the wheel - they can buy it or steal it from developed countries.

Uh... it's true that the DPRK is backward, but the actual political meaning is definetely not that DPRK is "replicating 1957" or something. Or doing it with zero political reasons.

Right, I'm not saying that DPRK's actions happen in a political vacuum. Just that you should expect the DPRK to be backwards because it doesn't have an economy and it's cut off from the rest of the world.

Didn't it take the Falcon-1 three attempts before they successfully launched a rocket?