HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Hamstray
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HSBC: Too big to jail?

Post by Hamstray »

A bit of fairly recent (though not that new) important news getting overlooked here (is it because everyone is preoccupied with the gun debate?):

http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/12/news/co ... aundering/
NEW YORK (CNNMoney)
Federal officials expressed pride when they announced their $1.9 billion money-laundering settlement with HSBC.

But almost as soon as the news broke Tuesday, critics repeated the questions familiar in cases involving big banks: Why wasn't HSBC indicted, and why aren't any individuals being held responsible?

The deal "makes a mockery of the criminal justice system," said Jimmy Gurulé, a law professor at Notre Dame and former assistant attorney general.

As part of an agreement deferring its prosecution, HSBC admitted that executives for years ignored warning signs that drug cartels in Mexico were using its branches to launder hundreds of millions of dollars through the U.S. The bank also acknowledged that its international staff had stripped identifying information on transactions through the U.S. from countries including Iran and Sudan in order to evade sanctions.

Related: Growing costs for HSBC's laundry list of problems

To make matters worse, HSBC received multiple warnings. U.S. regulators ordered the bank in 2003 to strengthen its anti-money laundering controls, and did so again in 2010 after finding it had continued to ignore suspicious transactions.

"The record of dysfunction that prevailed at HSBC for many years was astonishing," said Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer. "Today, HSBC is paying a heavy price for its conduct."

Even though the settlement includes the largest forfeiture ever in a case involving a bank, there's debate over whether it truly represents a "heavy price."

"There appears to be an exception for employees of large banks that have engaged in particularly serious and egregious violations of the law," Gurulé said. "That's an insane policy."

Besides the penalty, a record for money-laundering cases in the U.S., Breuer said HSBC compliance officials have had their bonuses clawed back, and most of HSBC's senior management has been replaced since the conduct at issue, which stretched from the mid-1990s to 2010.

"The HSBC of today is a fundamentally different organization from the one that made those mistakes," HSBC CEO Stuart Gulliver said in a statement Tuesday.

Related: HSBC unloads Ping An stake

Breuer hinted that one reason the U.S. might resist criminal prosecution of HSBC is concern that it could prompt the loss of the bank's U.S. charter and the shuttering of operations here.

There is precedent: Nick Harbist, a white-collar defense lawyer and former federal prosecutor, said law enforcement officials have been reluctant to indict companies since accounting firm Arthur Andersen essentially collapsed a decade ago -- taking down 25,000 jobs -- after being convicted in connection with the Enron scandal. The conviction was later overturned by the Supreme Court.

"Our goal here is not to bring HSBC down, it's not to cause a systemic effect on the economy, it's not for people to lose thousands of jobs," Breuer said. "The innocent people who would suffer don't deserve that."

HSBC could still be prosecuted if it violates the terms of its agreement with the government, and the deferred prosecution doesn't preclude cases against individuals.

While Breuer didn't rule such cases out, he offered little to suggest they're being built.

With respect to the Mexican transactions, he characterized the problem as corporate negligence.

"As bad as HSBC's conduct was, this is not a case where the HSBC people intended -- intended -- to create money laundering," he said. "They did not have the controls in place that they needed."

As for the transfers from countries under sanctions, Breuer suggested that the guilty individuals at London-based HSBC might not be subject to the relevant U.S. laws.

"There's no allegation that in the United States, where the people have the obligation, that they were aware of what was going on. Rather, our theory of this case ... is that the parent hid this from those in the United States," he said. "We are now holding the parent responsible for conduct that doesn't violate British law -- it violates American law."

Related: HSBC's troubles mount with Jersey client probe

HSBC's settlement dwarfs penalties in other recent money-laundering cases, though the $1.9 billion it will pay to the government is just a fraction of its $16.8 billion in profit last year. The burden ultimately falls to the bank's shareholders, but investors shrugged off the news, sending HSBC (HBC) shares 0.6% higher Tuesday in London and New York.
I think Cenk Uygur sums up the outrage pretty well here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maqSFuI7Uf4
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

Post by madd0ct0r »

to answer the question in the title.

yes.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

Post by Aaron MkII »

I've long given up hope on this stuff. We live in a culture with two standards, one for the rich, and one for the rest of us.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

Post by Starglider »

Most of you lot constantly decry the US for throwing its weight around / imposing unilateral sanctions / trying to destroy the economies of any country it doesn't like. As such you should be glad that one bank valued freedom over ingratiating itself with US politicians and bravely provided a service to disadvantaged clients who would otherwise have been shut out of the global financial system. Fortunately the continuing decline of the dollar as the global reserve currency is steadily erroding the ability of the US government to prevent third parties from transacting.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Starglider wrote:Most of you lot constantly decry the US for throwing its weight around / imposing unilateral sanctions / trying to destroy the economies of any country it doesn't like. As such you should be glad that one bank valued freedom over ingratiating itself with US politicians and bravely provided a service to disadvantaged clients who would otherwise have been shut out of the global financial system. Fortunately the continuing decline of the dollar as the global reserve currency is steadily erroding the ability of the US government to prevent third parties from transacting.
Disadvantaged people? You mean the drug cartels who laundered 700 billion dollars through this bank over the course of 4 years?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-5 ... o-arrests/
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

Post by Zaune »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Disadvantaged people? You mean the drug cartels who laundered 700 billion dollars through this bank over the course of 4 years?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-5 ... o-arrests/
I think he was taking the piss.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

Post by Starglider »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Disadvantaged people? You mean the drug cartels who laundered 700 billion dollars through this bank over the course of 4 years?
Firstly, these so-called 'cartels' are social entrepreneurs filling important personal needs of a sizable minority (drug users) that governments unreasonably persecute. It is tragic that the so-called liberal community has not yet taken up the cause of rampant discrimination against this ostracised, below-average-income minority and continues to permitt governments to wage war on the unique economic structures that support their culture. Secondly, regardless of the so-called 'crime' all 'criminals' are by definition victims who deserve our support, since all crime is ultimately society's fault.

Seriously the single highest priority in international electronic transfer fraud screening at the moment is preventing Iranians from bypassing direct lock-outs via stripping and assorted placement / chaining strategies. This is overwhelmingly driven by the US government threatening to sanction / de-license / expell anyone who in any way helps Iranian companies or the Iranian government regardless of whether that activity takes place completely outside of the US (e.g. they're so desperate that they're going after physical gold transactions in Turkey). Since most of this board presumes to hate the US in general and US manipulation of other countries in particular, and supports Iran pretty much by default, you should be in favour of people ignoring and circumventing the US presumption of total control of the global finance system. In practice you don't because fundamentally you still believe anything the government does must be virtuous.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Starglider wrote:Firstly, these so-called 'cartels' are social entrepreneurs filling important personal needs of a sizable minority (drug users) that governments unreasonably persecute. It is tragic that the so-called liberal community has not yet taken up the cause of rampant discrimination against this ostracised, below-average-income minority and continues to permitt governments to wage war on the unique economic structures that support their culture. Secondly, regardless of the so-called 'crime' all 'criminals' are by definition victims who deserve our support, since all crime is ultimately society's fault.
You are a perfect Opium Apologist :lol:

Though all your points about Iran are perfectly valid, I am not sure how exactly helping drug cartels is helping Iran.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Stas Bush wrote:Though all your points about Iran are perfectly valid, I am not sure how exactly helping drug cartels is helping Iran.
I admitt that I'm mixing time periods here since the Iranian hysteria is current wheras the stuff HSBC got in trouble for is historical. This is because it made for a more emotive point than say discussing the abuses of the Iraqi oil-for-food program in the 1990s. The basic point is that in my (limited but substantive) experience of international electronic transfer fraud screening, anti-terrorism gets the most hype followed closely by anti-drugs (in both general and financial media). However the majority of the actual sanctions, block lists and regulation (i.e. specification / rules for screening software) seems to focus on inconveniencing governments and companies that Western governments don't like. While I personally don't like the Iranian government either, anyone opposed to the US throwing its weight around should not take this stuff at face value.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Firstly, these so-called 'cartels' are social entrepreneurs filling important personal needs of a sizable minority (drug users) that governments unreasonably persecute.
They also murder people. A lot of people. Just because a policy (like banning drugs) is boneheaded does not mean that the people who work against that policy are necessarily virtuous. We are not talking about the guy who grows some pot in his tricked out basement and then sells it to his friends. We are talking about people who engage in mass murder, government corruption, kidnapping, and human slave trafficking in order to support their criminal enterprise.
In practice you don't because fundamentally you still believe anything the government does must be virtuous.
That is a lot of words you put in my mouth just there. Do not presume to tell me what my views on Iran are.

I do not mind the US throwing its weight around on principle, but object because of its methods. I do not like torture. I do not like wars waged on the back of false justifications. I do NOT however, mind putting sanctions on a country that rigs elections and murders innocent people, and which funds terrorist groups in various regions of the world. I actually have friends in Iran. Nice people. If they rose up against their government, I would arm them, fund them hell, I would even send direct military aid.

Barring that, however, the options are nothing, and economic sanctions. Nothing is not acceptable.

So go fuck yourself.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Starglider wrote:Most of you lot constantly decry the US for throwing its weight around / imposing unilateral sanctions / trying to destroy the economies of any country it doesn't like. As such you should be glad that one bank valued freedom over ingratiating itself with US politicians and bravely provided a service to disadvantaged clients who would otherwise have been shut out of the global financial system. Fortunately the continuing decline of the dollar as the global reserve currency is steadily erroding the ability of the US government to prevent third parties from transacting.
oh, we are opposed to US foreign and security policies therefore we must be / should be supporting terrorist groups and organized crime. actually, founding those groups is beneficial to the the American military complex in that it provides incentives and excuses for them to go around world-policing.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Starglider wrote:While I personally don't like the Iranian government either, anyone opposed to the US throwing its weight around should not take this stuff at face value.
It's one thing to dislike Iran for legitimate reasons and another thing to introduce an economic blockade "cause they bad". Or, more to the point, blocking drug cartels would not be even remotely similar to the economic blockade of Iran, Cuba, etc. Mexico's economy won't collapse due to that. In fact, these drug cartels mostly operate serving the more, uh, wealthy (if we can speak of them as wealthy) drug addicts in the industrialized North than in SA proper, right?

In a "poor downtrodden thirdworlder" paradigm, which I gladly embrace here, stopping the cartels would mean (1) less violence in Mexico (2) more decriminalized occupations for citizens of Mexico (3) less drugs for American junkies.

Now pardon me if I put American junkies very low on my sympathy list.

Or more to the point:
Afghanistan in the 1960s before both superpowers had a "me soldiers trample this with their boots" moment:
Image
Image
Afghanistan's economy now:
Image
As for culture, just Google "Afghanistan women". I won't show the pictures but we all know what's there.

Narco-states are bad. That's proven by practice.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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I think Starglider is messing with you guys. ;)
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Gil Hamilton wrote:I think Starglider is messing with you guys. ;)
I honestly can't tell anymore.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Are you serious? Did you read his post and not think 'Starglider yanks the chain of SDN knee-jerk brigade'?
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Yeah. He's been doing this for what, a year now? My best guess is that he took Occupy as a personal insult, so now he does his "I am the very model of an EVIL FINANCE BANKER CAPITALIST MINION!" act every week or two to stir people up.

He's even adopted the functionally illiterate definition of "socialism" you see out of, say, Glenn Beck. And come on, we all know he's educated and smart enough not to be using that one if he weren't trolling.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Gil Hamilton wrote:I think Starglider is messing with you guys. ;)
It's not my fault, honest. I was a crusader for social justice, political correctness and liberal humanism, but then I acquired a tragic cocaine habit and now have to work as an online agitator for Haliburton to fund it.

I did toss in a serious point though in that government PR likes to focus on drugs and terrorism, and yes this is a significant part of international transaction screening, but in reality political alligiences and pressure (from the national scale right down to lobbyists for individual companies) are more important than legality/morality in driving who gets locked out and who can trade freely. This shouldn't be surprising as trade sanctions sit right next to military action in the political toolbox.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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If he's been doing it for a year, how could it be motivated by Occupy?

And sorry, he's been doing it ever since he realised how much money he could make out of financiers. You can go back and read his hilarious journey on this very board. I don't want to spoil his fun, but its obvious when he is posting exclusively to get a rise out of self-proclaimed political warriors on this forum by setting up strawmen and pressing hot buttons.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Stark wrote:Are you serious? Did you read his post and not think 'Starglider yanks the chain of SDN knee-jerk brigade'?
It was mostly that there's not much of a different between that and the stuff he normally posts.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Knee-jerk indeed. I thought it was hilarious. And the respondents are either too blind to recognize satire, or too egotistical to let obvious satire slide by.

And no, the "I can't tell the difference between his satire and his serious posts because they're so similar" defense is not valid. Use your brain. Please.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Ignoring the drug cartels, there is a legitimate point there about america throwing it's weight around.

Back when I was at school, one roommate (Vietnamese) couldn't sell legally sell his old laptop to my other roommate (american). It specifically stated in the guy's passport that such trade was grounds for losing his american passport.

A slightly silly example, but it goes some way to show how policy actually restricted trade, restricted growth of county's USA didn't like and help keep their people trapped in a cycle of poverty in the name of freedom.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Stark wrote:If he's been doing it for a year, how could it be motivated by Occupy?

And sorry, he's been doing it ever since he realised how much money he could make out of financiers. You can go back and read his hilarious journey on this very board. I don't want to spoil his fun, but its obvious when he is posting exclusively to get a rise out of self-proclaimed political warriors on this forum by setting up strawmen and pressing hot buttons.
Well, Occupy started in September 2011, and it's now December 2012...that would be 15 months, or as we like to call it, "more than a year."
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

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Stark wrote:And sorry, he's been doing it ever since he realised how much money he could make out of financiers. You can go back and read his hilarious journey on this very board. I don't want to spoil his fun, but its obvious when he is posting exclusively to get a rise out of self-proclaimed political warriors on this forum by setting up strawmen and pressing hot buttons.
[shrugs] Maybe my memory is at fault, though I doubt he gets paid to troll.

I would not be surprised to learn that every economic position Starglider has taken since he started doing this has been self-parody. Annoyed, but not really surprised.
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Re: HSBC: Too big to jail?

Post by K. A. Pital »

I know he's trolling, I just couldn't resist to make a narco-state point.
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