Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

[Simon_Jester]

Point of order, Marina, since I have to be fair:

Do the data you cited distinguish between people killed by drunk drivers and drunk drivers who died in their own accidents? If I get drunk and slam into a bridge abutment and die, and I get added to that statistic... to make it fair we'd probably have to add gun suicides to the total too, not just gun homicides.

That said, I'm still supportive of her basic point that if we're going to severely restrict one dangerous thing, we need to think long and hard about restricting other dangerous things, things which hurt or kill somewhere near the same number of people.

Still a false comparison. When people make a decision to drive drunk, they aren't consciously making a decision to hurt someone. Nobody chugs seven beers and gets in a car specifically to run down an old lady on the sidewalk. Obviously, driving drunk IS dangerous and people should know this, but it is extremely misleading to assume that the danger is on anybody's mind when they do this. Hell, most drunk drivers haven't even drank that much and think they are fine, or they only have to go X blocks and it will be fine. But when you make a decision to shoot someone, you ARE CONSCIOUSLY making the decision to hurt/kill them.

Legally, we treat drunk drivers as though they've already made the conscious decision to place lives at risk. We don't place it on the same level as first-degree murder. But then, blasting away with a firearm isn't first-degree murder either, unless you actually kill someone. We have all kinds of lesser firearms offenses- discharging a weapon in a public area, assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder... you get the idea.

They SHOULD know what they are doing. But, seriously, have you ever talked to anybody that drives drunk, or has driven drunk, or is considering it? Or people that have only had 1-2 beers, because a "buzz" is different than being "drunk"?

Legally, one or two beers won't normally put you over the threshold for a DUI in the first place.

[Isolder74]

So how many rounds did he have in magazines? That's the most relevant, because once he has to start loading by hand everything will come to a screeching halt.

The Article doesn't fully say, but it does say he had multiple 30 capacity clips ready to go on his person. How many of those he had is not specified but it seems like he was prepared to not have to reload by hand.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It is NOT a false analogy, because the FBI murder data does not include just Murder 1 convictions, but also Murder 2 and Manslaughter and cases which are never solved -- i.e., cases where culpability does not necessarily rise above the culpability for vehicular homicide.

[SirNitram]

I must ask: If we're doing the car-gun comparison, why aren't we promoting the same restrictions on guns as cars? Testing, renewing the liscense, requiring insurance, inspections, etc.

[Broomstick]

I could get on board with that. Why shouldn't we have required training/safety, registered items, periodic review/retesting, etc. for guns just as we have for other dangerous things? If you can't afford to properly care for and secure your firearms maybe you shouldn't have them.

I'm not comfortable with the notion that a citizen would need "a good reason" to obtain a firearm, but I am OK with requiring anyone who wishes to own one 1) not have any contraindications (such as mental illness or felony convictions) and 2) be obligated to be a responsible owner.

[Ahriman238]

As an aside, it seems the Westboro Baptists have decided to picket the funerals of the children for more headlines. Well, the official reason is because the children's deaths are a punishment from god.

And a bunch of people with no particular relation to each other, organized over the internet, have been showing up, dressed as angels to form a human wall and keep the picketers from the mourners.

I'm not sure if these two statements taken together make me more ashamed or inspired.

[JME2]

There's little Fred Phelps and his ilk can do anymore to shock me.

I just hope people can keep a cool head and not given them what these fuckers want.

[Sea Skimmer]

I must ask: If we're doing the car-gun comparison, why aren't we promoting the same restrictions on guns as cars? Testing, renewing the liscense, requiring insurance, inspections, etc.

Maybe because you do not in fact need a test or anything else to own and operate a car on your own or other private property, nor to build any car you wish yourself, while the vast majority of states in the US already require a license for carrying a loaded weapon in public and manufacturing is already subject to all kinds of restrictions.

[ryacko]

I must ask: If we're doing the car-gun comparison, why aren't we promoting the same restrictions on guns as cars? Testing, renewing the liscense, requiring insurance, inspections, etc.

Maybe because you do not in fact need a test or anything else to own and operate a car on your own or other private property, nor to build any car you wish yourself, while the vast majority of states in the US already require a license for carrying a loaded weapon in public and manufacturing is already subject to all kinds of restrictions.

To be fair, the bullet from a gun, can in fact travel to other people's properties. Which is quite a lethal emission.

That and I thought only the production of receivers were regulated.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

You can hit the accelerator on your legally owned semi-truck you don't have a commercial license to drive but legally own on your property and cheerfully plow through six homes. Next false analogy?

[Beowulf]

That and I thought only the production of receivers were regulated.

Depends on the state. Additionally, there are National Firearms Act restrictions on how you can build your reciever, with some really stupid corollaries. Like, if I chop down a Mosin-Nagant into a pistol, that's a short-barreled rifle, and needs a $200 tax stamp. If I make a new Mosin-Nagant reciever, and put on the same cut down pieces, it's a perfectly legal, albeit strange, pistol. I can then put normal length barrel and stock, and have a legal rifle. I can then go back and forth between those two configurations with no legal issues. In California, it's impossible to buy a pistol frame and build a gun up from scratch without being a licensed manufacturer.

[Lonestar]

Cerberus is jumping ship.

Cerberus is selling Freedom Group, owner of the 'Bushmaster' brand.

Possibly under pressure from the CA Teachers Union(Whose Pension fund is heavily invested in Cerberus), or the speculative incoming AWB.

[UnderAGreySky]

I don't drive after having even one beer and it takes about a six pack for me to feel anything. .

There was a time this (driving after "a couple of drinks") was as socially acceptable as gun ownership has been till date. This has changed in the last couple of decades, thanks to awareness, stricter punishments, stripping away of licences and, credit where it's due, Mothers Against Drunk Driving. This leads me to believe that there may be scope for things to change over time; isn't the long-term rate of gun ownership on the decline (discounting for two Obama bumps in 2008 and 2012)?

Found it:

[Beowulf]

I don't drive after having even one beer and it takes about a six pack for me to feel anything. .

There was a time this (driving after "a couple of drinks") was as socially acceptable as gun ownership has been till date. This has changed in the last couple of decades, thanks to awareness, stricter punishments, stripping away of licences and, credit where it's due, Mothers Against Drunk Driving. This leads me to believe that there may be scope for things to change over time; isn't the long-term rate of gun ownership on the decline (discounting for two Obama bumps in 2008 and 2012)?

Found it:

Now the question is, how accurately are people reporting their ownership of firearms? Are you going to tell a random stranger on the phone that you own a handgun, or long gun? So now you have to adjust your response rate based on what you estimate is the percentage that says they don't own a gun, but really do.

[Aaron MkII]

Cerberus is jumping ship.

Cerberus is selling Freedom Group, owner of the 'Bushmaster' brand.

Possibly under pressure from the CA Teachers Union(Whose Pension fund is heavily invested in Cerberus), or the speculative incoming AWB.

Conspiracy theories already, in the comments people saying "they might have knowledge that Obama wants our guns."

[Raw Shark]

Cerberus is jumping ship.

Cerberus is selling Freedom Group, owner of the 'Bushmaster' brand.

Possibly under pressure from the CA Teachers Union(Whose Pension fund is heavily invested in Cerberus), or the speculative incoming AWB.

Conspiracy theories already, in the comments people saying "they might have knowledge that Obama wants our guns."

Obama already has guns; fears gummint might try to take them.

[Aaron MkII]

Cerberus is jumping ship.

Cerberus is selling Freedom Group, owner of the 'Bushmaster' brand.

Possibly under pressure from the CA Teachers Union(Whose Pension fund is heavily invested in Cerberus), or the speculative incoming AWB.

Conspiracy theories already, in the comments people saying "they might have knowledge that Obama wants our guns."

Obama already has guns; fears gummint might try to take them.

Its quite amusing. I know he's pro AWB (a truly stupid bit of legislation) but as far as I know he hasn't done anything to push gun control.

[Broomstick]

Now the question is, how accurately are people reporting their ownership of firearms? Are you going to tell a random stranger on the phone that you own a handgun, or long gun?

Sure, why not?

So now you have to adjust your response rate based on what you estimate is the percentage that says they don't own a gun, but really do.

What about the people who don't own a gun but claim they do?

[Wing Commander MAD]

I must ask: If we're doing the car-gun comparison, why aren't we promoting the same restrictions on guns as cars? Testing, renewing the liscense, requiring insurance, inspections, etc.

Maybe because you do not in fact need a test or anything else to own and operate a car on your own or other private property, nor to build any car you wish yourself, while the vast majority of states in the US already require a license for carrying a loaded weapon in public and manufacturing is already subject to all kinds of restrictions.

I'll also add that renewing a drivers license (at least here in PA) only requires filling out a form, paying PennDoT, and getting a new photo for your license every 5 years. Come to think of it, that probably has something to do with all the elderly motorists I see who have no busness being on the road. It's allways nice to look out a window and see the nice little old lady or man in the other car whose head barely clears the console/steering wheel.

[Broomstick]

Make it more like a pilot's license, then - an initial physical to rule out anything that would make you an unsafe operator, periodic physical reviews, minimum of 1 hour classroom and 1 hour practical refresher training every two years, or whatever interval seems appropriate. If you're caught operating your airplane gun while under the influence of alcohol or drugs you lose your license. Certain other forms of misconduct - such as a DUI - can also result in automatic suspension. Require additional training recurrency checks for some types of firearms if that seems appropriate.

[Jaepheth]

From a practical standpoint, I think gun control is a losing issue for Democrats. They risk losing a lot of independent voters and have practically no votes to gain from pushing gun control.

So, approaching prevention from another angle:

Maybe we should up the arsenal available to mental health professionals.
Specifically, I'm thinking make MDMA a schedule 3 drug.
I'm pretty far removed from the mental health profession though. Are there other empathy inducing drugs already available for prescription?

[Aaron MkII]

Make it more like a pilot's license, then - an initial physical to rule out anything that would make you an unsafe operator, periodic physical reviews, minimum of 1 hour classroom and 1 hour practical refresher training every two years, or whatever interval seems appropriate. If you're caught operating your airplane gun while under the influence of alcohol or drugs you lose your license. Certain other forms of misconduct - such as a DUI - can also result in automatic suspension. Require additional training recurrency checks for some types of firearms if that seems appropriate.

I'm going to suggest you take the physical away and replace it with either an interview with a psychiatrist or those forms you fill out after a tour designed to pick up warning signs of mental illness. Part of this is simply personal, I'm physically disabled and I can easily see how this can be used to discriminate against me but also because its more likely that a person with a mental illness is going to potentially be more dangerous to the public then if you have a buggered hand and require a pistol grip for ergonomics.

The safety aspect should also make allowance for youth who wish to hunt. So they may have to be with an adult, should be required to in fact. But the system shouldn't bar them from participating with an 18 years or older only law.

[Sephirius]

I could get on board with that. Why shouldn't we have required training/safety, registered items, periodic review/retesting, etc. for guns just as we have for other dangerous things? If you can't afford to properly care for and secure your firearms maybe you shouldn't have them.

I'm not comfortable with the notion that a citizen would need "a good reason" to obtain a firearm, but I am OK with requiring anyone who wishes to own one 1) not have any contraindications (such as mental illness or felony convictions) and 2) be obligated to be a responsible owner.

The problem is, that that was tried and the Gun owners went along with that, and then the list was used for confiscations (i.e. not in good faith) when the AWB came out. Despite promises that the registry data would never be used for that.

See also the T97 fiasco up here in soviet canuckistan.

[Aaron MkII]

The appeal to save it lost btw, because it turned out the RCMP where right and it was easily converted to full auto. And a new varient will be in Canada in May (i ordered one), so the oft told tale actually has a happy ending and we should thank the RCMP fro a quick catch. If they hadn't found it for ten years or so they would have to go door to door. And significantly inconvenienced thousands.

[Sephirius]

The appeal to save it lost btw, because it turned out the RCMP where right and it was easily converted to full auto. And a new varient will be in Canada in May (i ordered one), so the oft told tale actually has a happy ending and we should thank the RCMP fro a quick catch. If they hadn't found it for ten years or so they would have to go door to door. And significantly inconvenienced thousands.

Do you have the press release on this, or any details how it was done out of curiosity? I was not aware of this development, but the whole way they went about the reclassification/inquiry/trial thing just seemed quite disingenuous, as I'm sure you'd agree. We can take this to PM too, if it is more appropriate.