Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

[Aaron MkII]

PM is good. Its buried on cgn, might take me a bit.

[Broomstick]

Make it more like a pilot's license, then - an initial physical to rule out anything that would make you an unsafe operator, periodic physical reviews, minimum of 1 hour classroom and 1 hour practical refresher training every two years, or whatever interval seems appropriate. If you're caught operating your airplane gun while under the influence of alcohol or drugs you lose your license. Certain other forms of misconduct - such as a DUI - can also result in automatic suspension. Require additional training recurrency checks for some types of firearms if that seems appropriate.

I'm going to suggest you take the physical away and replace it with either an interview with a psychiatrist or those forms you fill out after a tour designed to pick up warning signs of mental illness. Part of this is simply personal, I'm physically disabled and I can easily see how this can be used to discriminate against me but also because its more likely that a person with a mental illness is going to potentially be more dangerous to the public then if you have a buggered hand and require a pistol grip for ergonomics.

A crude psychiatric screening is part of the US flight exam, mostly based on medical history (which in the US is supposed to include mental health) and any history of misconduct brought to light. Not to stretch the analogy too far, but under US regs disabled people are allowed licenses - missing limbs, artificial limbs, deafness, being one-eyed - none of those prevent a person from obtaining a pilot's license, even a commercial pilot's license and pursuing flight as a profession is not out of reach for the physically impaired. More than one professional airline pilot in the US has been missing an arm or leg yet so long as they can safely operate their airplane they continue in the profession. There are at least two companies that make adaptive hand controls for pilots who no longer have their use of their legs and need a wheelchair to get around on the ground. The two criteria are 1) can this person control an airplane and 2) could their condition represent a hazard to others due to the potential for sudden incapacitation. This is considerably more liberal than many other nations. Psychiatric illness, however, can disqualify a person from flying an airplane. Do you have OCD? Probably not an issue. Do you have clinical depression or schizophrenia? Sorry, not allowed to fly.

The FAA can and has insisted on psychiatric reviews of pilots and prospective pilots where they feel it is appropriate. People with a history of substance abuse or a depressive episode in their past, for example, may be subject to a psychiatric review which will address whether or not the condition is still active, whether or not appropriate treatment would interfere with safe operations, and whether or not sufficient time has passed that a judgement can be made on likelihood of relapse.

The safety aspect should also make allowance for youth who wish to hunt. So they may have to be with an adult, should be required to in fact. But the system shouldn't bar them from participating with an 18 years or older only law.

Again, you don't have to be 18 to fly in the US - children of any age are allowed to manipulate the controls of an airplane provided they are under the supervision of a responsible and licensed adult. You can solo an airplane in the US at the age of 16, a glider at 14, and you can get your full private pilot license at 17. Analogous regulation for firearms would allow youth participation.

This another reason why I suggested adapting the pilot license model - it focuses more on whether or not you are a danger to others, and whether or not you can adequately control your machine, than on arbitrary limits that may or may not have a bearing on the individual's capabilities.

There are weapons laws that take into account physical disabilities already in the US. For example, in my state, Indiana, it is illegal for the able-bodied to hunt with a crossbow. Only those who have an impaired arm/hand are allowed a crossbow hunting license. This brings up the point that the 2nd amendment discusses arms in general, not just firearms. The right to own and use bows, mace, and various other implements is also both regulated by law and has also landed in the courts in cases where it was deemed part of the 2nd amendment to own weapons. If we're going to overhaul the laws we might as well take advantage of the opportunity to inject sanity across the board if we possibly can do so.

[Aaron MkII]

I've no objection then, thanks for the additional info.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I still think the best solution in the United States is just requiring a recent mental health evaluation to purchase, with the cost set by law, and licensed personnel required to offer them as a condition of their licensure. Perhaps a pared down, shorter and easier to grade version of the CPI or MMPI developed specifically to screen out violent neuropsychopathies could be prepared as the standardized test. The duration of 5 - 7 years would be fixed by the fact that that's when most therapists destroy old records, so it isn't a licensing system, the results of the test aren't reported to the government, you just have to get a test and present the signed and notarized copy of the results from the therapist to the person you're buying a gun from. The test is standardized and based on responses to a set group of questions--so that avoids crossing people out because they "look shifty" or whatnot. It's supplemental to existing standards. Voluntarily getting a CPL or other kind of firearms license which requires regular mental health evaluations (I know many CPLs now don't, but they could) would exempt you from the need to have this notarized document--the license would be shown in lieu of it when purchasing. The pared down version would make a cost of 60 - 85 dollars for the testing reasonable, and that is affordable twice a decade by pretty much anyone who can afford firearms in the first place.


There are other harm mitigation, of course--a tax of 400% or alternatively a gross, tax and actual cost of $4/bullet alternative minimum would make it harder to acquire large quantities of ammunition and require longer planning periods for these kinds of massacres which more chances to detect them. We ban online ammunition sales and instead set up a system like Washington and Rhode Island have for Sudafed--you're limited to a carton of ammunition at a time, 3 cartons in a month, 30 in a year, and you have to show ID and sign an electronic record when purchasing the ammunition. This is not more serious than the current system where you do have to sign and fill out a 4473 to buy a gun, it would just extend the same level of monitoring to ammunition purchase, so the authorities could be alerted if someone was trying to buy very large quantities of ammunition in a short period of time, the same as for pseudoephedrine purchases for prospective use in meth manufacturing.

Then we accept a 7 day waiting period for all firearms, rifles and pistols and shotguns, purchases from FFLs. It wouldn't apply to private citizens or gun shows, but most gun-shows are multi-day so we could at least require a 24-hr period for gun shows, i.e., any gun show must last two days and the first day is "display and sign up to buy", the second day is where the transaction is actually effected. And, of course, extending the NICS system to gunshows would be trivial as well.

And then of course the ban on high-capacity detachable magazines, which will not do much but when one of these massacres takes place at least makes it more difficult, and gives more regular intervals for someone to intervene or escape. The exact number of rounds from 5 to 10 is really a matter of compromise and political debate, though in any case integral magazines that must be reloaded by hand or multiple stripper clips shouldn't be included.

I think, from that framework of measures, we could get something really effective at harm mitigation, the same way harm mitigation is the main focus of tobacco laws in the US today, without resorting to licensing, insurance, gun registration, etc, which stand against the principles behind the 2nd Amendment and are politically infeasible, and whose mere proposal tends to radicalize gun owners, with good reason considering Canada's experience. If it really had to be done I'd agree for some kind of negotiated AWB, but only the original one--with some of the more ridiculous provisions removed, like the inclusion of bayonet lugs as one of the five factors of which two result in classification of a detachable magazine weapon as an Assault Weapon, bring it down to four--and with the 19 guns listed specifically by name struck off, as it always struck me as completely retarded that we needed to have twenty something "especially scary" guns we'd banned by name--and then created a table of terms and features that would have banned them anyway.

But in exchange for these measures, I want to see national concealed carry permits that are valid anywhere in the US on a shall-issue basis (though with repetitive mental health screening in addition to safety training and more thorough background checks). And I want to see an end to all gun-free zones in the country, except for courts, airports, and buildings protected during all operating hours by armed guards.

If that kind of grand compromise could be implemented, then we could really find a suitable equilibrium for firearms in the US.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

A few supplementary notes to the concept:

1. The tax would not be charged on bullets bought at a shooting range, for use at the shooting range only, which couldn't be removed from premises;
2. Private production of ammunition and reloading would be legal for personal and family use; resale would be illegal. Spent cartridges could still be sold to reloaders.
3. States would be required to set up subsidy programs to allow low-income persons with hunting licenses to buy a certain quantity of low-cost ammunition a year.

[ryacko]

I buy thousands of pieces of ammunition before this law goes into effect, and make profits of 300% and up on the black market?

Nevermind that rimfire ammunition shouldn't be reloaded.

[Simon_Jester]

There are other harm mitigation, of course--a tax of 400% or alternatively a gross, tax and actual cost of $4/bullet alternative minimum would make it harder to acquire large quantities of ammunition and require longer planning periods for these kinds of massacres which more chances to detect them...

There's a Chris Rock skit about that.

Bullet control. I like it.

[Aaron MkII]

I buy thousands of pieces of ammunition before this law goes into effect, and make profits of 300% and up on the black market?

Nevermind that rimfire ammunition shouldn't be reloaded.

Someone certainly will, and those of us that reload will suddenly be very popular at the club. For that matter, most people who shoot regularly but don't reload will quickly start. Which will also make the brass bucket pickings slim.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Since you could legally make your own new ammo under that term, remanufacturing rimfire brass to be safe to fire again would be trivially. Anyway, hardcore target shooters would just become reloaders too, which would also reduce demand for ammunition, so I'm not seeing what the problem is.

There'd be a couple other things we could commit to but they're all about mental health reporting and coverage, not firearms per say.

[Broomstick]

3. States would be required to set up subsidy programs to allow low-income persons with hunting licenses to buy a certain quantity of low-cost ammunition a year.

We sort of have that already, although only in Alaska where food stamps can be used to purchase hunting equipment. But that's probably not exactly what you meant, right?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

3. States would be required to set up subsidy programs to allow low-income persons with hunting licenses to buy a certain quantity of low-cost ammunition a year.

We sort of have that already, although only in Alaska where food stamps can be used to purchase hunting equipment. But that's probably not exactly what you meant, right?

Since under the proposal we're substantially jacking up the price of ammunition to make it harder for gangbangers in the ghetto/kids who live in their parent's basement with no job to stockpile ammunition, we need to compensate for people who augment their diet with hunted meat by requiring states to provide a reasonable number of bullets at subsidized prices each year to hunters. This would probably take the form of coupons that could be redeemed at any FFL in the state issued with your hunting license if you brought proof of income when buying it.

[Jaepheth]

IMO there's way too much focus on the gun aspect of this incident.

Lack of guns doesn't stop crazy
Examples
another case

[Civil War Man]

IMO there's way too much focus on the gun aspect of this incident.

Lack of guns doesn't stop crazy
Examples

It doesn't stop the crazy, but you gloss over the fact that all of those attacks put together killed as many people as this one shooting. That's why there's focus on the gun aspect.

[Jaepheth]

Sorry, I should elaborate.

We're trying to minimize body count, which is number of attacks * number casualties per attack. Some more stringent gun control will effect the second variable, but I think the primary focus should be on helping people not want to commit the attacks in the first place. I feel we have the most room for improvement on the side of mental health treatment and thus could make a larger difference with less investment and strife. Plus, the benefits of improved mental healthcare go beyond just reducing body count; it also improves the quality of life for the recipients and lessen the strain and resource drain of the justice system. Whereas more stringent gun control is going to cost more resources on the side of enforcement, licensing, etc.

So it's fine to do both, but I think the primary focus should be on mental health because that's where we'll see the greatest ROI.

[Sephirius]

IMO there's way too much focus on the gun aspect of this incident.

Lack of guns doesn't stop crazy
Examples

It doesn't stop the crazy, but you gloss over the fact that all of those attacks put together killed as many people as this one shooting. That's why there's focus on the gun aspect.

Well the worst mass murder in US history was done with gasoline and a match... and that one instance had the same killed as Columbine, Virginia Tech, Aurora and this most recent shooting put together.

[ryacko]

I still think people shouldn't be able to use sharp knives, not even in their own home. Exceptions are made for their place of work.

[UnderAGreySky]

Well the worst mass murder in US history was done with gasoline and a match... and that one instance had the same killed as Columbine, Virginia Tech, Aurora and this most recent shooting put together.

I thought it was done with four hijacked airliners, and look at the number of steps taken to prevent it from happening, as I recall the US went *overboard* in correcting those mistakes...

[Imperial528]

<Removed to avoid derail>

[Dr. Trainwreck]

I feel we have the most room for improvement on the side of mental health treatment and thus could make a larger difference with less investment and strife.

I hardly think that stricter regulations on gun control will be more expensive than creating an entire mental health system that is worth a damn. The latter is effective in every area, but is an incredibly expensive, government run program; the people will be wary of the cost and the democrats won't bother with it, more concerned as they are with passing off indiscriminate slaughter as counter-terrorism.

[Broomstick]

I still think people shouldn't be able to use sharp knives, not even in their own home. Exceptions are made for their place of work.

I suppose we're supposed to gnaw pieces off our dinner's entree, then? And even if you're into cuisines that cut meat and large items into bit-sized pieces prior to serving that's going to make kitchen prep and cooking... interesting.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It's people like ryacko that fuel massive NRA contributions by people holding AK's in public while shouting MOLON LABE and guarantee that nothing on this issue will ever change.

[aerius]

Looks like his mom was in the process of getting him committed to a psych facility.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/fe ... n-to-snap/

EXCLUSIVE: Fear of being committed may have caused Connecticut gunman to snap
By Jana Winter
Published December 18, 2012

NEWTOWN, Conn. – The gunman who slaughtered 20 children and six adults at a Connecticut elementary school may have snapped because his mother was planning to commit him to a psychiatric facility, according to a lifelong resident of the area who was familiar with the killer’s family and several of the victims’ families.

Adam Lanza, 20, targeted Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown after killing his mother early Friday because he believed she loved the school “more than she loved him,” said Joshua Flashman, 25, who grew up not far from where the shooting took place. Flashman, a U.S. Marine, is the son of a pastor at an area church where many of the victims' families worship.

“From what I've been told, Adam was aware of her petitioning the court for conservatorship and (her) plans to have him committed," Flashman told FoxNews.com. "Adam was apparently very upset about this. He thought she just wanted to send him away. From what I understand, he was really, really angry. I think this could have been it, what set him off.”

A senior law enforcement official involved in the investigation confirmed that Lanza's anger at his mother over plans for “his future mental health treatment” is being looked at as a possible motive for the deadly shooting.

Flashman was told Nancy Lanza had begun filing paperwork to get conservatorship over her troubled son, but that could not be confirmed because a court official told FoxNews.com such records are sealed. The move would have been necessary for her to gain the legal right to commit an adult to a hospital or psychiatric facility against his will. A competency hearing had not yet been held.

Adam Lanza attended the Sandy Hook School as a boy, according to Flashman, who said Nancy Lanza had volunteered there for several years. Two law enforcement sources said they believed Nancy Lanza had been volunteering with kindergartners at the school. Most of Lanza's victims were first graders sources believe Nancy Lanza may have worked with last year.

Flashman said Nancy Lanza was also good friends with the school’s principal and psychologist—both of whom were killed in the shooting rampage.

"Adam Lanza believed she cared more for the children than she did for him, and the reason he probably thought this [was the fact that] she was petitioning for conservatorship and wanted to have him committed," Flashman said. "I could understand how he might perceive that—that his mom loved him less than she loved the kids, loved the school. But she did love him. But he was a troubled kid and she probably just couldn’t take care of him by herself anymore."

The Washington Post reported that the distraught mother had considered moving with her son to Washington state, where she had found a school she thought could help him. Either way, according to Flashman, Nancy Lanza was at her wit's end.

A separate neighborhood source also told FoxNews.com that Nancy Lanza had come to the realization she could no longer handle her son alone. She was caring for him full-time, but told friends she needed help. She was planning to have him involuntarily hospitalized, according to the source, who did not know if she had taken formal steps.

SEND TIPS TO NEWSMANAGER@FOXNEWS.COM

Multiple sources told FoxNews.com Adam Lanza suffered from Asperger’s syndrome, a form of autism, and unspecified mental and emotional problems.

Adam Lanza has also been described by those who knew him as highly intelligent, and a spokesman for Western Connecticut State University told The Associated Press he took college classes there when he was 16, earning a 3.26 grade point average and excelling at a computer course.

Alan Diaz, 20, who was friends with Adam Lanza at Newtown High School, said the Lanza he knew was ill-at-ease socially, but not a monster.

"He was a wicked smart kid," Diaz told FoxNews.com by email. "When I first met him, he wouldn't even look at you when you tried to talk to him. Over the year I knew him, he became used to me and my other friends, he eventually could have full conversations with us.

"I've heard him laugh, he has even comforted me once in a hard time I had," Diaz said. “A big part of me wishes I never dropped contact with him after he left high school, felt like I could have done something."

Flashman said nobody will completely understand why Adam did what he did.

“No one can explain Adam Lanza besides God and Adam Lanza, and I don’t even think Adam Lanza could explain Adam Lanza, to be honest with you.”

There are also reports that he was on Fanapta which appears to have some nasty side effects from my quick google search.
There's also speculation that he went off his meds which led to him going unhinged.

Like the Zimmerman case among others, it's going to be a while before we get any facts out of the media shitstorm.

[Lonestar]

So, looks like a AWB will be proposed on the first day of Congress. The Provisions Here.

It's worth noting that it grandfathers in MSRs that are legally owned, but nothing is said about a manufactured date. So if Remington, S&W, Spikes, etc. are going nuts manufacturing the hell out of AR-15s in anticipation of jacking up prices, it won't mean diddly unless they've already been sold to the public.

Note that she claims that the AWB was responsible for a decline in gun violence, and then ignores that gun violence continued to decline after the AWB expired.

This AWB is substantially more harsh than existing ones in CA, NY, MA etc. It mentions "100 specifically banned by name" and "rifles that can accept a detachable magazine", which is probably intended to close the Bullet Button loophole, and prevent the sale of semi-automatics like the Mini-14 or M-14 derivatives. It also looks like you cannot "sale or transfer" grandfathered black rifles, so presumably if I fall over dead and have in a will that I want my AR to go to someone, that's a no-go.

Meanwhile...

The Big Box Stores are pulling MSRs from the shelves

The article mentions Dick's specifically, but it seems Academy is pulling them as well. Major online weapons dealer CheaperThanDirt has also halted gun sales.

And...

Run on ammo, magazines, gun manufacturers stock tanks


The $60 30rd mag is particularly hilarious, when you could have bought them for $13 in September.

[His Divine Shadow]

I wonder how a law affecting guns that stand for what, a percent or less of gun crime, lowers the crime rate? Does the sight of assault weapons trigger violent tendencies in criminals and so removing flash hiders and collapsible stocks makes them less likelt to commit crimes?

[Agent Fisher]

It won't. All it will do is mean that in the months leading up to a law going in effect, every single MSR out there will be bought up, and then that'll be that. Oh and of course, magically, cause there isn't a scary black rifle some deranged person can go buy, we won't have another single massacre again.

There are other harm mitigation, of course--a tax of 400% or alternatively a gross, tax and actual cost of $4/bullet alternative minimum would make it harder to acquire large quantities of ammunition and require longer planning periods for these kinds of massacres which more chances to detect them. We ban online ammunition sales and instead set up a system like Washington and Rhode Island have for Sudafed--you're limited to a carton of ammunition at a time, 3 cartons in a month, 30 in a year, and you have to show ID and sign an electronic record when purchasing the ammunition. This is not more serious than the current system where you do have to sign and fill out a 4473 to buy a gun, it would just extend the same level of monitoring to ammunition purchase, so the authorities could be alerted if someone was trying to buy very large quantities of ammunition in a short period of time, the same as for pseudoephedrine purchases for prospective use in meth manufacturing.

So, first off, what size carton? Are we limiting pistol to fifty rounds a box, or the big pack that I can buy at walmart of 250? Or like a rifle where you get twenty? Or a box for shotgun slugs where you have five?

I ask because when I go to the range, I regularly use about 250 to 350 in ammo. So this would be an issue. And large quantities of bullets in these massacre are often useless. How many rounds did the Newtown shooter use? I bet far less than he had with him. The shooter in the mall near Portland, probably alot of unused ammo.