“Militants”: media propaganda

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“Militants”: media propaganda

Post by Lord Zentei »

Couple of articles from Glenn Greenwald and articles from related links.

Apparently, the Obama administration is redefining the concept of "militant" to include any male of military age who happens to be near the target zone. Hence the low number of "civilian" deaths. Quite convenient! And the media goes along with it.
“Militants”: media propaganda
To avoid counting civilian deaths, Obama re-defined "militant" to mean "all military-age males in a strike zone"
By Glenn Greenwald

Virtually every time the U.S. fires a missile from a drone and ends the lives of Muslims, American media outlets dutifully trumpet in

headlines that the dead were ”militants” – even though those media outlets literally do not have the slightest idea of who was actually killed. They simply cite always-unnamed “officials” claiming that the dead were “militants.” It’s the most obvious and inexcusable form of rank propaganda: media outlets continuously propagating a vital claim without having the slightest idea if it’s true.

This practice continues even though key Obama officials have been caught lying, a term used advisedly, about how many civilians they’re killing. I’ve written and said many times before that in American media discourse, the definition of “militant” is any human being whose life is extinguished when an American missile or bomb detonates (that term was even used when Anwar Awlaki’s 16-year-old American son, Abdulrahman, was killed by a U.S. drone in Yemen two weeks after a drone killed his father, even though nobody claims the teenager was anything but completely innocent: “Another U.S. Drone Strike Kills Militants in Yemen”).

This morning, the New York Times has a very lengthy and detailed article about President Obama’s counter-Terrorism policies based on interviews with “three dozen of his current and former advisers.” I’m writing separately about the numerous revelations contained in that article, but want specifically to highlight this one vital passage about how the Obama administration determines who is a “militant.” The article explains that Obama’s rhetorical emphasis on avoiding civilian deaths “did not significantly change” the drone program, because Obama himself simply expanded the definition of a “militant” to ensure that it includes virtually everyone killed by his drone strikes. Just read this remarkable passage:

Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants, according to several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent.

Counterterrorism officials insist this approach is one of simple logic: people in an area of known terrorist activity, or found with a top Qaeda operative, are probably up to no good. “Al Qaeda is an insular, paranoid organization — innocent neighbors don’t hitchhike rides in the back of trucks headed for the border with guns and bombs,” said one official, who requested anonymity to speak about what is still a classified program.

This counting method may partly explain the official claims of extraordinarily low collateral deaths. In a speech last year Mr. Brennan, Mr. Obama’s trusted adviser, said that not a single noncombatant had been killed in a year of strikes. And in a recent interview, a senior administration official said that the number of civilians killed in drone strikes in Pakistan under Mr. Obama was in the “single digits” — and that independent counts of scores or hundreds of civilian deaths unwittingly draw on false propaganda claims by militants.

But in interviews, three former senior intelligence officials expressed disbelief that the number could be so low. The C.I.A. accounting has so troubled some administration officials outside the agency that they have brought their concerns to the White House. One called it “guilt by association” that has led to “deceptive” estimates of civilian casualties.

“It bothers me when they say there were seven guys, so they must all be militants,” the official said. “They count the corpses and they’re not really sure who they are.”

For the moment, leave the ethical issues to the side that arise from viewing “all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants”; that’s nothing less than sociopathic, a term I use advisedly, but I discuss that in the separate, longer piece I’ve written. For now, consider what this means for American media outlets. Any of them which use the term “militants” to describe those killed by U.S. strikes are knowingly disseminating a false and misleading term of propaganda. By “militant,” the Obama administration literally means nothing more than: any military-age male whom we kill, even when we know nothing else about them. They have no idea whether the person killed is really a militant: if they’re male and of a certain age they just call them one in order to whitewash their behavior and propagandize the citizenry (unless conclusive evidence somehow later emerges proving their innocence).

What kind of self-respecting media outlet would be party to this practice? Here’s the New York Times documenting that this is what the term “militant” means when used by government officials. Any media outlet that continues using it while knowing this is explicitly choosing to be an instrument for state propaganda — not that that’s anything new, but this makes this clearer than it’s ever been.
You got that? But it gets better. Now children are legitimate targets for drone assassinations. The following article appeared in the Military Times justifying this:

Linka.
Some Afghan kids aren’t bystanders

By Dan Lamothe and Joe Gould - Staff writers
Posted : Monday Dec 3, 2012 7:08:35 EST

CAMP LEATHERNECK, Afghanistan — When Marines in Helmand province sized up shadowy figures that appeared to be emplacing an improvised explosive device, it looked like a straightforward mission. They got clearance for an airstrike, a Marine official said, and took out the targets.

It wasn’t that simple, however. Three individuals hit were 12, 10 and 8 years old, leading the International Security Assistance Force in Kabul to say it may have “accidentally killed three innocent Afghan civilians.”

But a Marine official here raised questions about whether the children were “innocent.” Before calling for the M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System mission in mid-October, Marines observed the children digging a hole in a dirt road in Nawa district, the official said, and the Taliban may have recruited the children to carry out the mission.

The incident underscores a continuing problem across Afghanistan. The use of children by the Taliban — through recruitment and as human shields — complicates coalition forces’ efforts to eliminate enemy fighters from the battlefield without angering civilians.

The New York Times reported that the dead children’s family members said they had been sent to gather dung, which farmers use for fuel. Taliban fighters were laying the bombs near the children, who were mistakenly killed, they said.

Regardless, it’s one of many times the children have been involved in the war. In a case this year, Afghan National Police in Kandahar province’s Zharay district found two boys, ages 9 and 11, with a male 18-year-old carrying 1-liter soda bottles full of enough potassium chlorate to kill coalition forces on a foot patrol.

“It kind of opens our aperture,” said Army Lt. Col. Marion “Ced” Carrington, whose unit, 1st Battalion, 508th Parachute Infantry Regiment, was assisting the Afghan police. “In addition to looking for military-age males, it’s looking for children with potential hostile intent.”

There were 316 documented cases of underage recruitment in the war last year, most of them attributed to the Taliban and other armed groups like the Haqqani network, according to a U.N. report released in April. Eleven children, including an 8-year-old girl, were killed in Afghanistan last year carrying out suicide attacks, the report said.

Marines in Helmand say the Taliban regularly recruit children to serve as spotters, letting armed insurgents know when U.S. or Afghan forces reach designated points on a patrol so they can prepare an ambush.

An ISAF spokesman, Lt. Col. Jimmie Cummings, said insurgents continue to use children as suicide bombers and IED emplacers, even though Taliban leader Mullah Omar has ordered them to stop harming civilians.
Of course, the Bush Administration used to torture children, so what are a few drone strikes killing them?

Article in the Nation regarding the above.

UN investigation underway, for all the good it will do:
Guardian wrote:The United Nations is to set up a dedicated investigations unit in Geneva early next year to examine the legality of drone attacks in cases where civilians are killed in so-called "targeted" counter-terrorism operations.

The announcement was made by Ben Emmerson QC, a UN special rapporteur, in a speech to Harvard law school in which he condemned secret rendition and waterboarding as crimes under international law. His forthright comments, directed at both US presidential candidates, will be seen as an explicit challenge to the prevailing US ideology of the global war on terror.

Earlier this summer, Emmerson, who monitors counter-terrorism for the UN, called for effective investigations into drone attacks. Some US drone strikes in Pakistan may amount to war crimes, Emmerson warned.

In his Harvard speech, he said: "If the relevant states are not willing to establish effective independent monitoring mechanisms … then it may in the last resort be necessary for the UN to act.

"Together with my colleague Christof Heyns, [the UN special rapporteur on extra-judicial killings], I will be launching an investigation unit within the special procedures of the [UN] Human Rights Council to inquire into individual drone attacks."

The investigation unit will also look at "other forms of targeted killing conducted in counter-terrorism operations, in which it is alleged that civilian casualties have been inflicted". Emmerson maintained that the US stance that it can conduct counter-terrorism operations against al-Qaida or other groups anywhere in the world because it is deemed to be an international conflict was indefensible.

"The global war paradigm has done immense damage to a previously shared international consensus on the legal framework underlying both international human rights law and international humanitarian law," he said. "It has also given a spurious justification to a range of serious human rights and humanitarian law violations.

"The [global] war paradigm was always based on the flimsiest of reasoning, and was not supported even by close allies of the US. The first-term Obama administration initially retreated from this approach, but over the past 18 months it has begun to rear its head once again, in briefings by administration officials seeking to provide a legal justification for the drone programme of targeted killing in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia …

"[It is] alleged that since President Obama took office at least 50 civilians were killed in follow-up strikes when they had gone to help victims and more than 20 civilians have also been attacked in deliberate strikes on funerals and mourners. Christof Heyns … has described such attacks, if they prove to have happened, as war crimes. I would endorse that view."

Emmerson singled out both President Obama and the Republican challenger Mitt Romney for criticism. "It is perhaps surprising that the position of the two candidates on this issue has not even featured during their presidential elections campaigns, and got no mention at all in Monday night's foreign policy debate.

"We now know that the two candidates are in agreement on the use of drones. But the issue of so-called enhanced interrogation techniques is an one which, according to the record, continues to divide them.

"I should make it absolutely clear that my mandate does not see to eye to eye with the Obama administration on a range of issues – not least the lack of transparency over the drone programme. But on this issue the president has been clear since he took office that water-boarding is torture that it is contrary to American values and that it would stop.

"... But Governor Romney has said that he does not believe that waterboarding is torture. He has said that he would allow enhanced interrogation techniques that go beyond those now permitted by the army field manual, and his security advisers have recommended that he rescind the existing restrictions."

The Cambodian dictator Pol Pot, he pointed out, used the technique. "Anyone who is in doubt about whether waterboarding is torture should visit Tuol Sleng, the infamous S-21 detention facility operated by the Khymer Rouge in Phnom Penh.

"Over a period of four years 14,000 people were systematically tortured and killed there. It is now a genocide museum. And right there, in the middle of the central torturing room, is the apparatus used by Pol Pot's security officials for waterboarding."
Not that there isn't ample evidence of the US using 9/11 as false justification for the Iraq war.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by Lord Zentei »

Just in case anyone didn't buy that bit about children being tortured:

Linka

Article on the top 10 myths on torture. Excerpt:
Myth # 9: Only Bad Guys Were Tortured

Torture apologists pretend that only the baddest of the bad were tortured. But the truth is different.

As I noted in 2009:

One of the main excuses used to justify torture is that the people being tortured were bloodthirsty terrorists, who would do far worse to us if we didn’t stop them.

Is that true?

Judge for yourself:

The number two man at the State Department under Colin Powell, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, says that many of those being held at Guantanamo Bay were innocent, and that top Bush administration officials knew that they were innocent. Moreover, he said:

“This philosophy held that it did not matter if a detainee were innocent. Indeed, because he lived in Afghanistan and was captured on or near the battle area, he must know something of importance (this general philosophy, in an even cruder form, prevailed in Iraq as well, helping to produce the nightmare at Abu Ghraib). All that was necessary was to extract everything possible from him and others like him, assemble it all in a computer program, and then look for cross-connections and serendipitous incidentals–in short, to have sufficient information about a village, a region, or a group of individuals, that dots could be connected and terrorists or their plots could be identified.Thus, as many people as possible had to be kept in detention for as long as possible to allow this philosophy of intelligence gathering to work. The detainees’ innocence was inconsequential. After all, they were ignorant peasants for the most part and mostly Muslim to boot.”

(see this and this). Indeed, Wilkerson signed a declaration under penalty of perjury stating that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld covered up the fact that hundreds of innocent men were sent to Guantanamo because they feared that releasing them would harm the push for the war in Iraq and the broader war on terror.

Many others also state that those tortured were mainly innocent farmers, villagers, or those against whom neighbors held a grudge. Indeed, people received a nice cash reward from the U.S. government for turning people in as “suspected terrorists” (and see this movie)

The commander of the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, Janis Karpinski, estimates that 90% of detainees in the prison were innocent

This has been confirmed by the recent release of U.S. military files. As the Guardian reported yesterday:

The US military dossiers, obtained by the New York Times and the Guardian, reveal how … many prisoners were flown to the Guantánamo cages and held captive for years on the flimsiest grounds, or on the basis of lurid confessions extracted by maltreatment.

The files depict a system often focused less on containing dangerous terrorists or enemy fighters, than on extracting intelligence. Among inmates who proved harmless were an 89-year-old Afghan villager, suffering from senile dementia, and a 14-year-old boy who had been an innocent kidnap victim.

Anyone who was affiliated with Pakistan’s national intelligence service, or that had been held as a prisoner in a Taliban jail, or that wore a certain type of watch, was considered a terrorist:

US authorities listed the main Pakistani intelligence service, the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI), as a terrorist organisation alongside groups such as al-Qaida, Hamas, Hezbollah and Iranian intelligence.

Interrogators were told to regard links to any of these as an indication of terrorist or insurgent activity.

***

A number of British nationals and residents were held for years even though US authorities knew they were not Taliban or al-Qaida members. One Briton … was rendered to Guantánamo simply because he had been held in a Taliban prison and was thought to have knowledge of their interrogation techniques.

***

Another 17-page file, titled “GTMO matrix of threat indicators for enemy combatants”, advises interrogators to look out for signs of terrorist activity ranging from links to a number of mosques around the world, including two in London, to ownership of a particular model of Casio watch.

“The Casio was known to be given to the students at al-Qaida bombmaking training courses in Afghanistan,” it states.

Others were held because they led religious services or drove cabs in certain geographic regions, or because they were Al Jazeera reporters:

One man was transferred to the facility “because he was a mullah, who led prayers at Manu mosque in Kandahar province, Afghanistan … which placed him in a position to have special knowledge of the Taliban”.

***

Another prisoner was shipped to the base “because of his general knowledge of activities in the areas of Khowst and Kabul based as a result of his frequent travels through the region as a taxi driver”.

The files also reveal that an al-Jazeera journalist was held at Guantánamo for six years, partly in order to be interrogated about the Arabic news network.

His dossier states that one of the reasons was “to provide information on … the al-Jazeera news network’s training programme, telecommunications equipment, and newsgathering operations in Chechnya, Kosovo and Afghanistan, including the network’s acquisition of a video of UBL [Osama bin Laden] and a subsequent interview with UBL”.


Congratulations, America … Children are Being Tortured in Your Name

Sick To My Stomach, I Have A Duty To Report On the Torture of Children
I've included two links above, but you should look at the whole article above - it includes several more.

More damning is the section which follows:
Myth # 10: America Doesn’t Torture Any More

<SNIP>
Merely the headline says it all. I don't want to spam up with the entire article moreso since there are a lot of links in the article and a fair amount of qutes and formatting issues, but the point is made I think.

But don't worry, it isn't terrorism. The Obama administration said so:

Linka.
Ter·ror·ism (Noun): When OTHER People Do What We Do
Posted on August 9, 2012 by WashingtonsBlog
It’s Not Terrorism When WE Do It ….

The United States is arguably the world’s largest sponsor of terrorism, although we call it “self defense” and fighting “humanitarian” wars.

But when other people – especially brown-skinned people who wear funny clothes – do the same things that we do, we label it as terrorism.

Mark Selden - Bartle Professor of History and Sociology at Binghamton University – explains:

American politicians and most social scientists definitionally exclude actions and policies of the United States and its allies” as terrorism.

For example, the American military indiscriminately kills innocent civilians (and see this), calling it “carefully targeted strikes”. When others do it, we rightfully label it terrorism.

When Al Qaeda, Syrians or others target people attending funerals of those killed – or those attempting to rescue people who have been injured by – previous attacks, we rightfully label it terrorism. But the U.S. government does exactly the same thing, without any criticism by government apologists.

Torture is a recognized form of terrorism. The United States has always considered waterboarding to be a crime of torture, including when the Japanese did it in WWII (and see this).

But the government and its lackeys tried to say that American waterboarding in the “war on terror” was not torture. When asked during his 2008 presidential bid whether waterboarding was torture, Rudy Giuliani answered:

It depends on the circumstances. It depends on who does it.

Indeed, we have a long history of using bombs and violence as a way to scare the civilian populations into seeing things our way.

But that is never labeled terrorism by the U.S. Instead, anyone who simply disagrees with U.S. policy (including those with the nerve to criticize the wars on brown-skinned people throughout North Africa and the Middle East planned 20 years ago) may be targeted with the terrorist label.
Why Are the American People So Easily Fooled?

Since 9/11, many Americans have conflated terrorism with Muslims; and having done so, they’ve tolerated or supported counterterrorism policies safe in the presumption that people unlike them would bear their brunt. (If Mayor Bloomberg and the NYPD sent officers beyond the boundaries of New York City to secretly spy on evangelical Christian students or Israeli students or students who own handguns the national backlash would be swift, brutal, and decisive. The revelation of secret spying on Muslim American students was mostly defended or ignored.)

In the name of counterterrorism, many Americans have given their assent to indefinite detention, the criminalization of gifts to certain charities, the extrajudicial assassination of American citizens, and a sprawling, opaque homeland security bureaucracy; many have also advocated policies like torture or racial profiling that are not presently part of official anti-terror policy.

***

It ought to be self-evident that non-Muslims perpetrate terrorist attacks, and that a vanishingly small percentage of Muslims are terrorists, but those two truths aren’t widely appreciated in America. That doesn’t mean they won’t reassert themselves, for terrorist attacks have always been with us; the tactic has never been exclusive to a single ideology for very long; and the power the state marshals against one sort of terrorist is sure to be first to hand when another sort strikes.

***

Having flattened so many laws (and a good many innocents) in pursuit of the terrorist, the American majority is naturally loath to focus its attention on a terrorist who looks, talks, and dresses as they do. It is particularly uncomfortable for those in the country who feel most reflexively safe when “an American” is beside them on a plane, instead of a bearded man with a turban. Watching [the Sikh temple massacre], that subset of Americans was put in a position to realize that a day prior they’d have identified with the terrorist more than his victims.

And so they quickly looked away.
History shows that when people try to ignore terrorism done to others – pretending that it doesn’t effect them – they end up vulnerable, alone and exposed.

And letting our fear of terror get out of hand makes people stupid.

And it should be clear that the failure to really investigate 9/11 (and the government’s bumbling incompetence or worse) has led to the spread of terrorism. Specifically, there was state support for 9/11 from at least one government … and yet we haven’t changed our foreign policy based upon that fact. And if people knew that 9/11 was preventable, they would demand real national security, instead of the ruthless global war and shameless fear-mongering which has been the government’s response to those attacks.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

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None of this is news. Is it just recently exposed in the US media or somesuch?
Because all of this has been known for years and years.

Didn't the who is militants angle got used in a talk here by Thanas on the upcoming election for instance?

Was this really news to you Zentai?
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by Thanas »

This really is nothing surprising. To be honest, anybody who says that Obama is better than Bush or McCain when it comes to torture is an idiot.
But quick, gotta vote for the guy because he is not a Republican.

Spoonist wrote: Didn't the who is militants angle got used in a talk here by Thanas on the upcoming election for instance?
Yeah it did, I also linked to Bagram and the continuing rendition flights.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by Lord Zentei »

I had not seen you post the "who is militants" angle before, specifically, though I followed most of your posts on related matters. Hence I posted these articles. Apologies, and feel free to move this thread elsewhere or lock it if this doesn't qualify for being here.
Thanas wrote:To be honest, anybody who says that Obama is better than Bush or McCain when it comes to torture is an idiot.
Yeah.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

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Nah, the thread is fine and no apologies whatsoever are necessary. After all, the abuses cannot be highlighted enough.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by Grumman »

If only it was more effective. I've only ever seen two Obama supporters react in a reasonable manner when they find out what the Obama administration has been up to, the others just repeat the droning mantra that Romney would be worse. Even pointing out that under Obama 93% of all income growth went to the top 1% doesn't shake their faith in how awesome Obama is.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by madd0ct0r »

The problem is, based off the Bush years, I would agree that 'Romney would be worse'.

No evidence, but can't shake the feeling.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

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Spoonist wrote:None of this is news. Is it just recently exposed in the US media or somesuch?
Because all of this has been known for years and years.

Didn't the who is militants angle got used in a talk here by Thanas on the upcoming election for instance?

Was this really news to you Zentai?
Torturing children? That is news to me, as is redefining "militant". Now, I'm not surprised, but it's the first I've heard.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by ryacko »

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 72726.html

They are also defining children as dogs now.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by K. A. Pital »

I've said this long before that the war will turn into a perpetual conflict with a loosely defined "militant" who is just a third worlder which happened to do something we heavily dislike.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by Gil Hamilton »

Grumman wrote:If only it was more effective. I've only ever seen two Obama supporters react in a reasonable manner when they find out what the Obama administration has been up to, the others just repeat the droning mantra that Romney would be worse. Even pointing out that under Obama 93% of all income growth went to the top 1% doesn't shake their faith in how awesome Obama is.
Out of curiosity, how do you think income growth would have grown under McCain? Or for that matter, under, say, the Green party candidate?

I'm not a huge fan of Obama. I voted for him twice, but I also don't think he's a magic angel baby who can wave his hand and make economic growth more egalitarian, given that the system is very much designed from the ground up not to be and that's not something any President can change.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

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FDR did.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by Gil Hamilton »

If we took FDR and plopped him into 2012, do you think he could do it again?
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by ryacko »

Wasn't FDR a militarist tyrant who ran for office four times because he could, destroying the informal institutions we have, and aiming to oppress the common man with burdensome regulations?
It's not like there's going to be a difference once FDR comes back from the dead and runs for a fifth tern. In fact it might be hard to choose between two such candidates, possibly creating a near tie in the popular vote.

Also, we're going to have a recession in 1937. 2013
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

ryacko wrote:Wasn't FDR a militarist tyrant who ran for office four times because he could, destroying the informal institutions we have, and aiming to oppress the common man with burdensome regulations?
Aye, comrade. FDR was such a warmonger, he declared war on Germany and Japan just because they declared war first. He was also a tyrant who staged public executions of businessmen and tortured his political opponents, trampled the Constitution and tried to impose teh eevul soshialysme on hard-working Murricans, who were denied the RIGHT to CHOOSE how to starve to death, thus violating the finest principle of the FREE MARKET: your choice of death is free but you can't choose to live, we aren't cheap populists now are we?

Ryacko, is there anything about the history of your own country you get better than people half a world away?
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by ryacko »

Dr. Trainwreck wrote:
ryacko wrote:Wasn't FDR a militarist tyrant who ran for office four times because he could, destroying the informal institutions we have, and aiming to oppress the common man with burdensome regulations?
Aye, comrade. FDR was such a warmonger, he declared war on Germany and Japan just because they declared war first. He was also a tyrant who staged public executions of businessmen and tortured his political opponents, trampled the Constitution and tried to impose teh eevul soshialysme on hard-working Murricans, who were denied the RIGHT to CHOOSE how to starve to death, thus violating the finest principle of the FREE MARKET: your choice of death is free but you can't choose to live, we aren't cheap populists now are we?

Ryacko, is there anything about the history of your own country you get better than people half a world away?
It is liberal apologists like you who continue to spread the half-truths written in American history textbooks. But it was FDR who claimed US authority over half of the Atlantic, FDR's administration which embargoed Japan while continuing to trade with the allies, and FDR whose provocations lead to the deaths of so many American lives.

Actually, I suppose FDR would be better as President.
He only claimed authority over half of the Western hemisphere.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by General Mung Beans »

Dr. Trainwreck wrote:
ryacko wrote:Wasn't FDR a militarist tyrant who ran for office four times because he could, destroying the informal institutions we have, and aiming to oppress the common man with burdensome regulations?
Aye, comrade. FDR was such a warmonger, he declared war on Germany and Japan just because they declared war first. He was also a tyrant who staged public executions of businessmen and tortured his political opponents, trampled the Constitution and tried to impose teh eevul soshialysme on hard-working Murricans, who were denied the RIGHT to CHOOSE how to starve to death, thus violating the finest principle of the FREE MARKET: your choice of death is free but you can't choose to live, we aren't cheap populists now are we?

Ryacko, is there anything about the history of your own country you get better than people half a world away?
While FDR was undoubtedly a great President, at the same time he commanded plenty of actions that would make both Bush and Obama look like Ron Paul such as interning 100,000 Japanese-Americans and ordering the strategic bombing campaigns. Domestically he is well known for packing the Supreme Court.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by DarkArk »

FDR's administration which embargoed Japan while continuing to trade with the allies
Because of course trading with a Japan that had proven itself to be an aggressive power by attacking China and then seizing French Indochina was such a great idea. I've never understood people who try and use the US embargo as a justification for Japan attacking the US. Stopping giving oil to a war machine that was geared towards mass slaughter and rape is one of the undoubtedly good things FDR did.
FDR whose provocations lead to the deaths of so many American lives.
So it's FDR's fault for the Axis declaring war on the US?
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by Rogue 9 »

ryacko wrote:
Dr. Trainwreck wrote:
ryacko wrote:Wasn't FDR a militarist tyrant who ran for office four times because he could, destroying the informal institutions we have, and aiming to oppress the common man with burdensome regulations?
Aye, comrade. FDR was such a warmonger, he declared war on Germany and Japan just because they declared war first. He was also a tyrant who staged public executions of businessmen and tortured his political opponents, trampled the Constitution and tried to impose teh eevul soshialysme on hard-working Murricans, who were denied the RIGHT to CHOOSE how to starve to death, thus violating the finest principle of the FREE MARKET: your choice of death is free but you can't choose to live, we aren't cheap populists now are we?

Ryacko, is there anything about the history of your own country you get better than people half a world away?
It is liberal apologists like you who continue to spread the half-truths written in American history textbooks. But it was FDR who claimed US authority over half of the Atlantic, FDR's administration which embargoed Japan while continuing to trade with the allies, and FDR whose provocations lead to the deaths of so many American lives.
Considering Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were basically evil incarnate, I somehow don't find it in me to blame him. :roll:
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by Grumman »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Grumman wrote:If only it was more effective. I've only ever seen two Obama supporters react in a reasonable manner when they find out what the Obama administration has been up to, the others just repeat the droning mantra that Romney would be worse. Even pointing out that under Obama 93% of all income growth went to the top 1% doesn't shake their faith in how awesome Obama is.
Out of curiosity, how do you think income growth would have grown under McCain? Or for that matter, under, say, the Green party candidate?
Bush was as bad as Obama, with all income growth for both going to the top 20%, and I don't see any reason to think Romney would have been any better. I do think Stein would have been a significant improvement, unless she also pulled a "Surprise, I'm a Muslim-killing, torturer-protecting pawn of special interests" like Obama did in 2008.
madd0ct0r wrote:The problem is, based off the Bush years, I would agree that 'Romney would be worse'.

No evidence, but can't shake the feeling.
Romney sucks, but at least the Democrats might be willing to call him out on it, if only out of self-interest. On the other hand the Republicans are completely worthless as an opposition party, generally only willing to make a stand over excuses instead of reasons.

And I can't help but think that if Romney's CIA helped make a propaganda film falsely claiming that torture is what allowed us to kill bin Laden, it wouldn't be running at 95% on Rotten Tomatoes.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by Thanas »

Grumman wrote: And I can't help but think that if Romney's CIA helped make a propaganda film falsely claiming that torture is what allowed us to kill bin Laden, it wouldn't be running at 95% on Rotten Tomatoes.
Tell me you are not being serious about the existence of such drivel.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by Stark »

He's not kidding.

For clarity, the movie apparently tells us that it was 'enhanced interrogation' ie torture of Bin Laden's pal Khalid Sheikh Mohammed which provided the critical information regarding his location and allowed the US death squads to murder him.
Last year, Senator McCain asked then-CIA director Leon Panetta for the facts, and he said the hunt for bin Laden did not begin with fresh information from Mohammed. In fact, the name of bin Laden's courier, Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti, came from a detainee held in another country.

"Not only did the use of enhanced interrogation techniques on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed not provide us with key leads on bin Laden's courier, Abu Ahmed, it actually produced false and misleading information," Senator McCain said in a speech on the Senate floor.
Pretty funny stuff.
Last edited by Stark on 2012-12-19 03:37am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by Thanas »

Gil Hamilton wrote:If we took FDR and plopped him into 2012, do you think he could do it again?
The guy overcame half a century's worth of entrenched interests and fatcats, so maybe? The point is Obama is not even trying.

General Mung Beans wrote:While FDR was undoubtedly a great President, at the same time he commanded plenty of actions that would make both Bush and Obama look like Ron Paul such as interning 100,000 Japanese-Americans and ordering the strategic bombing campaigns. Domestically he is well known for packing the Supreme Court.
Never crossed the line into ordering torture firms though. In any case, my comment was not about whether FDR was a great warlord who crossed the line many times (he did) but about how Obama is not even willing to try to take the worst problems head on.

Stark wrote:He's not kidding.
Well, now I know what to quote when the US gets its panties in a bunch over the next movie out of Turkey showing american soldiers/CIA guys to be comicbook villains.
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Re: “Militants”: media propaganda

Post by Stark »

The acceptability of something has always been determined by how it makes us feel. Telling Americans that it was all ok, it was all worth it, and WE WON, will always make people feel happy.
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