Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

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Broken
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Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Broken »

Another "interesting" ruling by an American court

Employers can fire workers they find too sexy, Iowa court rules
Reuters wrote: The Iowa Supreme Court ruled on Friday that employers in the state can legally fire workers they find too attractive.

In a unanimous decision, the court held that a dentist did not violate the state's civil rights act when he terminated a female dental assistant whom his wife considered a threat to their marriage.

The dental assistant, Melissa Nelson, who worked for dentist James Knight for more than 10 years and had never flirted with him, according to the testimony of both parties, sued, saying she would not have been fired if she were a man.

At trial, Knight testified he had complained to Nelson on several occasions that her clothing was too tight, revealing and "distracting."

But sometime in 2009, he also began exchanging text messages with Nelson. Most of these were work-related and harmless, according to testimony. But others were more suggestive, including one in which Knight asked Nelson how often she had an orgasm. She never answered the text.

In late 2009, Knight's wife found out about the text exchanges and demanded her husband terminate the dental assistant because "she was a big threat to our marriage."

In early 2010, he fired her, saying their relationship had become a detriment to his family.

Nelson sued, saying that she had done nothing wrong, that she considered Knight a friend and father figure, and that she would not have been terminated but for her gender.

Knight argued that Nelson was terminated not because of her gender - all the employees of his practice are women — but because of the way their relationship had developed and the threat it posed to his marriage.

The seven justices, all men, said the basic question presented by the case was "whether an employee who has not engaged in flirtatious conduct may be lawfully terminated simply because the boss views the employee as an irresistible attraction."

The high court ruled that bosses can fire workers they find too attractive and that such actions do not amount to unlawful discrimination.

The case was Melissa Nelson v. James H. Knight DDS, PC and James Knight.

(Reporting by James B. Kelleher in Chicago; Editing by Eric Beech)
So in Iowa if your boss finds you incredibly sexy, even if you never encourage them, you can be legally fired since your a distraction. Seems like an awfully trivial reason to fire someone.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by ryacko »

You can also sue for loss of consortium in some US states as well. Basically you can sue if you no longer have sex with your wife and someone's liable.
including one in which Knight asked Nelson how often she had an orgasm. She never answered the text.
She should have sued first for sexual harassment. Maybe this was an attempt to cover his ass by firing her.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by General Zod »

ryacko wrote:You can also sue for loss of consortium in some US states as well. Basically you can sue if you no longer have sex with your wife and someone's liable.
including one in which Knight asked Nelson how often she had an orgasm. She never answered the text.
She should have sued first for sexual harassment. Maybe this was an attempt to cover his ass by firing her.
I bet that would've gone even worse. His lawyers could've argued that since she continued communicating with him and didn't say she was uncomfortable that it didn't count as sexual harassment.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Dominus Atheos »

You misunderstand the law and ruling. It simply said "attractiveness is not a special class of discrimination covered under law." Protected classes include race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, genetic information, or age under federal law.

US employers can fire anyone for any reason except those.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by bilateralrope »

Broken wrote:So in Iowa if your boss finds you incredibly sexy, even if you never encourage them, you can be legally fired since your a distraction. Seems like an awfully trivial reason to fire someone.
What should Knight have done in that situation ?

He did not want to risk his marriage. He saw his relationship with her as a threat to his marriage, probably as a temptation to cheat on his wife. So he broke off the relationship with Nelson. Unfortunately, because he was her boss, that meant he had to fire her.

My only question is how much notice/severance pay did he give her ?
Because it's not her fault that she was fired.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by General Zod »

bilateralrope wrote: What should Knight have done in that situation ?

He did not want to risk his marriage. He saw his relationship with her as a threat to his marriage, probably as a temptation to cheat on his wife. So he broke off the relationship with Nelson. Unfortunately, because he was her boss, that meant he had to fire her.

My only question is how much notice/severance pay did he give her ?
Because it's not her fault that she was fired.
It seems to me that Mrs Nelson wasn't the one putting his marriage in danger.

It's also interesting to note that the article in the op leaves out the fact that Mrs Nelson was married.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/22/us/iowa-i ... ?hpt=hp_t2
Nelson and Knight, both married with children, also exchanged text messages to each other outside of work. Neither objected to the texting.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by weemadando »

Hey dudes. It's your choice whether to put your dick in things. The only person who can threaten a marriage is the person who choses to be unfaithful.

THE MORE YOU KNOW.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by bilateralrope »

General Zod wrote:It seems to me that Mrs Nelson wasn't the one putting his marriage in danger.
Are you going to answer my question or not ?

Should he have remained in a situation where he didn't think his self control would hold out indefinitely ?

Or do you see a third option that I can't ?
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Highlord Laan »

bilateralrope wrote:
General Zod wrote:It seems to me that Mrs Nelson wasn't the one putting his marriage in danger.
Are you going to answer my question or not ?

Should he have remained in a situation where he didn't think his self control would hold out indefinitely ?

Or do you see a third option that I can't ?
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

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bilateralrope wrote:
General Zod wrote:It seems to me that Mrs Nelson wasn't the one putting his marriage in danger.
Are you going to answer my question or not ?

Should he have remained in a situation where he didn't think his self control would hold out indefinitely ?

Or do you see a third option that I can't ?
The option of acknowledging that she wasn't interested in him and that it wasn't putting his marriage in jeopardy unless he was planning on forcing his attention on her?
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by hongi »

Unfortunately, because he was her boss, that meant he had to fire her.
He could have quit.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by AniThyng »

hongi wrote:
Unfortunately, because he was her boss, that meant he had to fire her.
He could have quit.
I suppose that would make sense if...it...wasn't...his dental practice in the first place?

Note also that his wife seems to have little faith in his self-control, given the article words it as she being the one demanding he terminate her. Sounds like he's in trouble either way.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by hongi »

I suppose that would make sense if...it...wasn't...his dental practice in the first place?
It's the morally sensible thing to do, as it wasn't his employee's fault. It's his. So why should she pay in loss of employment?
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by AniThyng »

hongi wrote:
I suppose that would make sense if...it...wasn't...his dental practice in the first place?
It's the morally sensible thing to do, as it wasn't his employee's fault. It's his. So why should she pay in loss of employment?
I have no idea if his practice has other partners or dentists, but presuming he calls it a day and liquidates his practice, unless some other dentist steps in to take it over, every one of his employees is out of a job anyway, and if he doesn't, perhaps his marriage is gone as well.

Looks like he could have avoided the court mess if he gave her a generous severance package? Would that have been a acceptable 3rd option?

Oh well. Reap what you sow and all that?
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Enigma »

hongi wrote:
I suppose that would make sense if...it...wasn't...his dental practice in the first place?
It's the morally sensible thing to do, as it wasn't his employee's fault. It's his. So why should she pay in loss of employment?
So, let's say an owner of a small business can't keep his dick in his pants, should let everyone go and liquidate his business? I don't see how that works because the owner simply can't quit the business he's running unless he sells it. Then what?

By taking this further, the guy shouldn't be employed at all until he keeps his dick in check all the while losing money and probably lose everything.

Knight shouldn't quit, he needs professional help.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by General Zod »

bilateralrope wrote:
Should he have remained in a situation where he didn't think his self control would hold out indefinitely ?
Well if he tried forcing himself on her maybe she would have gotten a more favorable outcome in the lawsuit. But I do like the way you act as though it was inevitable that she would agree to sleep with him.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Zirojtan »

I don't see what the problem with this is?
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Aaron MkII »

Seriously?

Guy fires a woman because he wants to fuck her but can't?

But you know what? I agree, he should have let her go because he seemed like he was working up to rape. But....a generous severance package should have been given, along with stellar references. Because it's not her fault he thinks with his cock.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Enigma »

One dentist in Taiwan does the opposite, he only hires good looking women.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

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Aaron MkII wrote: But you know what? I agree, he should have let her go because he seemed like he was working up to rape. But....a generous severance package should have been given, along with stellar references. Because it's not her fault he thinks with his cock.

Nope, according to the CNN article, she got one month's severance after working for him for 10 years. He and his wife decided she had to go even though there was apparently no sexual harassment or affair going on, but she was still a threat to their marriage. As for references, how are you going to give a a stellar one without making one of you look like a creep or being so vague and general as to raise flags all on there own?

I don't know, I just find the idea that you can screw with someone else's life because of your problem to be morally offensive and as a male I am offended by the implication that firing a good employee is a choice somewhere in the same neighborhood as assuring everyone involved that I can and will keep my dick in my pants.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Aaron MkII »

A month? I was thinking of a years worth.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Rogue 9 »

Aaron MkII wrote:A month? I was thinking of a years worth.
A year's worth is practically unheard of outside of high corporate positions. My mother was a department head at a major hospital for twenty-six years and got six months of severance when they laid her off (over a decade ago).
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

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Wow
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Simon_Jester »

A lot depends on the details, and whether they're being reported accurately.

How much say did Mr. Knight have in this decision? Did he make it on his own? Was it the result of an ultimatum by Mrs. Knight? Mrs. Nelson, the assistant- is there any evidence that she was actively pursuing a sexual relationship with Mr. Knight? Is there evidence that Mr. Knight ever did anything to pursue a relationship with Mrs. Nelson?
bilateralrope wrote:What should Knight have done in that situation ?

He did not want to risk his marriage. He saw his relationship with her as a threat to his marriage, probably as a temptation to cheat on his wife. So he broke off the relationship with Nelson. Unfortunately, because he was her boss, that meant he had to fire her.
"HE SAW having this employee as a temptation to cheat" doesn't justify firing someone. "I lust after you, but I must remain faithful, therefore YOU must suffer so that I am not tempted" just isn't right or fair.

Now, the point where Knight actually faces a dilemma is when his wife starts saying "fire her or I'm leaving you." Is he supposed to say "fine, take your paranoia out of my life" to his wife of X years? Or is he supposed to fire the employee? We can say one or the other of those is right as a legal thing, but I don't think either of those would be easy for an honorable man to say.

If his wife really was pushing him about this, does she deserve part of the criticism, albeit not the legal liability?
General Zod wrote:Nelson and Knight, both married with children, also exchanged text messages to each other outside of work. Neither objected to the texting.
Is the problem that they were texting, or that the texts had sexual content?

No reasonable person would think twice about an employer having a friendship outside of work and exchanging messages outside of work with an employee, if it was just messages like "hey, what about the game?" or "I hope your vacation's going good" or ordinary mundane stuff like that.
bilateralrope wrote:
General Zod wrote:It seems to me that Mrs Nelson wasn't the one putting his marriage in danger.
Are you going to answer my question or not ?

Should he have remained in a situation where he didn't think his self control would hold out indefinitely ? Or do you see a third option that I can't ?
Was his employee actively trying to seduce him?

If so, then yeah there's a problem- he needs to tell her to stop. If not, then what does his 'self control' have to do with anything? You don't need 'self-control' to keep from cheating on your wife with a woman who never wanted you in the first place. You just need 'not a rapist nutball.'
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by General Zod »

Simon_Jester wrote:How much say did Mr. Knight have in this decision? Did he make it on his own? Was it the result of an ultimatum by Mrs. Knight? Mrs. Nelson, the assistant- is there any evidence that she was actively pursuing a sexual relationship with Mr. Knight? Is there evidence that Mr. Knight ever did anything to pursue a relationship with Mrs. Nelson?
Did you read any of the articles already posted?
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