US firefighters shot dead at blaze in Webster, New York

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Couldn't see any threads for this yet:

Two US volunteer firefighters have been shot dead and two injured while responding to an emergency call in the town of Webster in New York state.

Police said the four were fired upon in an "apparent trap" as they arrived on Monday morning.

The blaze broke out just before 06:00 local time (11:00 GMT) and officers had to evacuate nearby residents in an armoured car.

A gunman has been found dead at the scene, local police say.

The man was 62-year-old William Spengler, Webster Police Chief Gerald Pickering told media.

Spengler appeared to have shot himself in the head, Mr Pickering said.

He had previously served a 17-year jail sentence after being convicted of killing his grandmother.

Spengler's sister is unaccounted for and police fear she may have died in the fire, which engulfed seven houses.

The two dead firefighters were named by police as Tomasz Kaczowka and Mike Chiapperini.


Mr Pickering told reporters: "These people get up in the middle of the night to go put out fires; they don't expect to be shot and killed."

The two injured firefighters were named as Joseph Hofsetter and Theodore Scardino.

They are being treated for gunshot wounds at the Strong Memorial Hospital and are expected to recover.

Police spokesmen said the area was "an active crime scene" but that no more shooters were believed to be present.

'Senseless act'

Two of the firefighters had arrived in a fire engine and two in their own vehicles, police said. One wounded man managed to escape but the others were pinned down until the armoured car could be sent in.

Police evacuated residents and firefighters were then able to return to tackle the blaze.

Chief Pickering said: "Webster is a tremendous community. We are a safe community, and to have a tragedy befall us like this is just horrendous."

New York Governor Andrew Cuomo said in a statement: "All of our thoughts and prayers go to the families and friends of those who were killed in this senseless act of violence."

New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman said: "The contributions made by the fallen and injured officers in Webster will never be forgotten.

The blaze took place on a small peninsula
"As this investigation unfolds, we stand with our partners in law enforcement to ensure that lethal weapons are out of the hands of dangerous people, so that the brave New Yorkers who risk their lives every day to protect us are not exposed to additional danger."

There were also two incidents of on-duty police officers being shot dead on Monday.

A policeman was killed in the city of Houston, Texas, after the driver of a car he pulled over opened fire on him.

In the midwestern state of Wisconsin, a policewoman on early morning patrol was found shot dead in the town of Wauwatosa.

The debate on gun violence in the US was rekindled earlier this month by the shootings at a school in Newtown, Connecticut, which left 20 children and six adults dead at Sandy Hook Elementary School.

It was one of the worst mass shootings in American history.

"There's a heightened awareness to this kind of violence in light of what happened in Connecticut," said Maggie Brooks, leader of the local administration in Monroe County, the area which includes Webster.

"We have first responders and we have families who are in pain and crisis today and we need to, as a community, keep them in our thoughts and prayers," Mrs Brooks said, adding that it was a "very, very difficult day".

President Barack Obama has promised to push for action on gun control while the National Rifle Association (NRA) has called for armed security in all American schools.

Source

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Paroled murderer committing multiple felonies by illegally acquiring weapons decides he's not going back to jail and goes out in a blaze of glory. This actually happens quite frequently.

[Broomstick]

Yes, but it's usually more of a spontaneous "Oh, crap, I just got pulled over for a traffic violation and I'm not going back to jail" shoot-out with cops, not so much an obviously premeditated arson trap targeting firefighters.

[StarSword]

And another nail in the pro-gun lobby's coffin...

[Broomstick]

The argument there would be, again, "this person should not have access to guns" being a convicted felon.

[Wing Commander MAD]

My guess is that Spengler had a grievance with one of the firefighters and set the fire knowing that his target would show up.

[Alyeska]

And another nail in the pro-gun lobby's coffin...

Oh shut up. That has practically nothing to do with this tragedy.

[Kamakazie Sith]

And another nail in the pro-gun lobby's coffin...

More like an in your face reason why people who illegally take a life should never be paroled.

[RogueIce]

My guess is that Spengler had a grievance with one of the firefighters and set the fire knowing that his target would show up.

This article does state that one of the killed volunteer firefighters was also a police lieutenant and PIO. So that might be the case, though of course we need to wait for the facts.

It might be more along the lines of what Duchess said, though. The fire was on the same street his house was and where he killed his grandmother back in 1980, and apparently his sister is still unaccounted for. So it may well be a muder-suicide with a "blaze of glory" as Duchess said.

[JLTucker]

And another nail in the pro-gun lobby's coffin...

More like an in your face reason why people who illegally take a life should never be paroled.

Are you liking your objection to rehabilitation?

[Zaune]

Yes, but it's usually more of a spontaneous "Oh, crap, I just got pulled over for a traffic violation and I'm not going back to jail" shoot-out with cops, not so much an obviously premeditated arson trap targeting firefighters.

That struck me as well. I could understand him having issues with the police, but what the hell did he have against the local fire department? Sky News (can't find the link right now) said one of the volunteer firefighters on scene was a police officer in his day job, but I can think of easier and more reliable ways of settling an old score with a particular volunteer fireman than torching your own house and hoping he's in the first appliance on-scene.

Ah, hell. The guy bludgeoned his 92 year-old grandmother to death with a hammer, he clearly wasn't the poster boy for soundness of mind. Maybe it just seemed like a good idea at the time.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Insomuch as this has any connection with gun control, it's very strictly an unproblematic issue of banning sales where a background check is not run. Private sale? You both visit a gun store and pay ten bucks to the licensed FFL dealer to run the background check on the buyer. Gun show? Same thing, let the organizers have a booth for it. There are only a few wingnuts who think this will become a de facto gun registry who oppose it.

[Highlord Laan]

And another nail in the pro-gun lobby's coffin...

Keep talking, nimwit. I'm sure that people that think like you would agree. While the 50 or so million gun owners that didn't hurt anyone will continue to disagree.

[StarSword]

And another nail in the pro-gun lobby's coffin...

Keep talking, nimwit. I'm sure that people that think like you would agree. While the 50 or so million gun owners that didn't hurt anyone will continue to disagree.

Look, I'm entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that the second amendment is a consistently misinterpreted anachronism that dealt with ensuring an organized militia, not private citizens having blanket permission to own firearms regardless of all other concerns. I don't have a problem with responsible citizens owning guns for recreational shooting, hunting, etc., but it needs to be tightly regulated. And assault weapons shouldn't be allowed outside of the military and police, period.

But see above; I've already been told off by a mod so that's all I'm going to say on the subject.

[ryacko]

So it was consistently misinterpreted from the point it was written? I don't quite follow.

Maybe we should wait a week, act as if we have cooler heads, and wait and see how he got his gun before we propose gun reform? It is a tragedy, but your reform proposal may not work for a given situation, such as this. Which doesn't really work too well if you want to prevent it from happening again.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

The argument there would be, again, "this person should not have access to guns" being a convicted felon.

Pardon my ignorance but why did this convicted felon get access to a gun (assuming he secured one legally)?

[StarSword]

The argument there would be, again, "this person should not have access to guns" being a convicted felon.

Pardon my ignorance but why did this convicted felon get access to a gun (assuming he secured one legally)?

Still a question mark, at least as far as ABC News is concerned. (Warning: Video at link.*)

* It auto-plays and my data cap can't support it. Warning just in case anyone else has the same problem.

[Enigma]

The guy may have taken it from his sister, killed her then torched the house. If he was going all out, why bother acquiring a gun the legal way?

[Ahriman238]

First a school full of kids, now firefighters. What's up with all the crazies coming out and shooting up the last people they should have a grudge against this month?

My condolences to the families, and to the 5 wounded.

Incidently, I loved the tactlessness of the reporter who asks the police chief how hard it is that men he knew were shot and killed.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

First a school full of kids, now firefighters. What's up with all the crazies coming out and shooting up the last people they should have a grudge against this month?

My condolences to the families, and to the 5 wounded.

Incidently, I loved the tactlessness of the reporter who asks the police chief how hard it is that men he knew were shot and killed.

The media gives it so much attention that it helps motivate copycats. This effect is very well known for suicides, for example there was a marked decrease in subway suicides in Austria when the media there was legally banned from reporting them. If there was a ban on reporting these kinds of massacres in the US, I suspect that would actually be the most effective strategy for reducing their occurrence. That is, however, just as unconstitutional here as banning guns is.

[Terralthra]

So it was consistently misinterpreted from the point it was written? I don't quite follow.

You may want to check your facts on that before you repeat it somewhere people might believe it. The 2nd Amendment being held as protecting an individual right to bear arms, unconnected with a regular militia or common defense, is relatively recent jurisprudence. It has no historical basis past the last 40-50 years of jurisprudence, past say, the Reagan administration.

E.g.:

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to any preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.

[Questor]

Terralthra,

I'm just going to play devil's advocate here (almost literally) and point out that the sentence "Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense." is going to be a bit of an issue for the banning of military style assault rifles or even handguns in the modern era.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Terraltha is, of course, twisting and misinterpreting that decision. Miller upheld a personal right to possess firearms which had military use.

Technically under Miller we could own assault rifles as a protected constitutional right, but not hunting rifles. Sawed off shotguns were explicitly banned because citizens only had a right to possess militarily useful weapons so they could perform their militia duties.

[ryacko]

Terralthra: What exactly are you trying to prove by citing that? It only mentions shortbarrelled shotguns. Historically, there were no federal gun control laws, thus there wouldn't be any jurisprudence related to them before the civil war, to my knowledge.

It isn't until Miller that a federal gun control law is brought to the Supreme Court, and it states that there is no right to bear certain sorts of arms. Not that individuals do not have a right to bear any sort of arm.

[Terralthra]

Terraltha is, of course, twisting and misinterpreting that decision. Miller upheld a personal right to possess firearms which had military use.

Technically under Miller we could own assault rifles as a protected constitutional right, but not hunting rifles. Sawed off shotguns were explicitly banned because citizens only had a right to possess militarily useful weapons so they could perform their militia duties.

Indeed, and as we've covered many times, assault weapons are not the guns used in the vast majority of gun crimes. I'd be fine with ceding assault weapons under reasonable registration laws, if you want to cede short-barreled shotguns, pistol collections, etc.

And if you have a problem with my citing that case, I could also cite:
Lewis v. United States: "...the Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep and bear a firearm that does not have "some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia"", or
Adams v. Williams: "There is under our decisions no reason why stiff state laws governing the purchase and possession of pistols may not be enacted. There is no reason why pistols may not be barred from anyone with a police record. There is no reason why a State may not require a purchaser of a pistol to pass a psychiatric test. There is no reason why all pistols should not be barred to everyone except the police.", or
United States v. Johnson: "Johnson's argument that section 922(g) is an unconstitutional violation of his Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms is not new. See, e.g., United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174, 59 S.Ct. 816, 83 L.Ed. 1206 (1939). The courts have consistently held that the Second Amendment only confers a collective right of keeping and bearing arms which must bear a 'reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.' 307 U.S. at 178, 59 S.Ct. at 818. Johnson presents no evidence that section 922(g) in any way affects the maintenance of a well regulated militia."

Shall I go on? The idea that the 2nd protects the individual right to bear arms other than in connection with a militia is a fairly new one.