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SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

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Hotfoot
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Post by Hotfoot »

UltraViolence83 wrote:Meh. Call me a xenophobe if you must, but I don't like the idea of creating a superior species. I'd rather envision a future where homo sapien sapiens rule, not some damned uber-creatures.
You're looking at it the wrong way. Think of Babylon 5. Everyone is afraid of telepaths. Yet in a million years, every human is telepathic.

Does this mean that mundanes (non-telepaths) are eliminated from the human gene pool? Yes. Does it mean that humanity is gone? No. Your argument is that we shouldn't cure blindness or deafness if we have the ability to.
As for that retarded superintelligent remark, think of it this way: superintelligent baby finds drano, drinks it. Becomes a retard according to the IQ charts for it's species. It may have a higher IQ than a human still, but it wouldn't function very well compared to a human with an IQ of 100
How do you know that? A retarded person (barring very extreme cases) can still function above the level of a dog.
Just because we've done the seemingly impossible before doesn't mean we'll do something completely unrelated yet still seemingly impossible in the future. :?
Just because it seems impossible to you doesn't mean that it is. I know of a friend who had trouble believing that there was such a thing as completely unbreakable encryption, and that we've had it for well over a hundred years.
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UltraViolence83
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Post by UltraViolence83 »

To believe that we can do just about anything we want because we've made so many advances in the past couple hundred years doesn't mean that we'll be as gods someday.

Geez...I hope you're just using that B5 thing as an analogy, and not buy into it...

Blind/deafness are disorders. The normally functioning human brain is not a disorder. The goal of medicine is to cure these problems; not fix what isn't broken. :?

My brother has a titanium rod in his leg because it got broke. His leg can never be broken like that again. Thus: all people should have titanium rods in their legs, to prevent injury. That's what this is like. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
...This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old...ultraviolence.
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Post by Hotfoot »

UltraViolence83 wrote:To believe that we can do just about anything we want because we've made so many advances in the past couple hundred years doesn't mean that we'll be as gods someday.
Who said anything about "as gods"? Of course, if you'd like, being able to geneer ourselves would technically make us "gods" by some definitions.
Geez...I hope you're just using that B5 thing as an analogy, and not buy into it...
What's the difference between a mundane and a B5 telepath? A sense. To the telepaths, humans are deaf and blind. If a mundane and a telepath have kids, the child will be a telepath, though perhaps a weak one. The mundane's genes are still in the gene pool, but after a period of time, they are lost, or so recessive as to never really appear.
Blind/deafness are disorders. The normally functioning human brain is not a disorder. The goal of medicine is to cure these problems; not fix what isn't broken. :?
There are deaf people who don't want to be "fixed". They have a "deaf culture". They see nothing wrong with being deaf, attributing it to being an alternative lifestyle, not a disorder. What if you and I are the disorder, and those 12-year old college grads are examples of a perfectly functional human brain? Are we not then broken?
My brother has a titanium rod in his leg because it got broke. His leg can never be broken like that again. Thus: all people should have titanium rods in their legs, to prevent injury. That's what this is like. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Your example is very poor. Your brother was not born with a broken leg, and as such, the above does not correlate with what we've been discussing.
Do not meddle in the affairs of insomniacs, for they are cranky and can do things to you while you sleep.
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SG-14: Because in some cases, "Recon" means "Blow up a fucking planet or die trying."
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Post by UltraViolence83 »

Well good for them. Having a handicap only makes you stronger. I got to thinking about that. If these deaf people don't mind being deaf, and see it as a type of subculture, then wouldn't they be opposed to wiping out deafness? Parents always want the best for their child, but they can go too far, such as not giving a fetus the chance to live because it may be born deaf isn't very ethical even by my standards of ethics. Such practices could lead to a reemergence of eugenics, which I oppose.

My example may be poor, but what I'm trying to get at is: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And don't try any funny business like labeling the things we improved on that weren't broken. I'm talking about fundamentally changing human life, something that's supposed to be much more important than the machines and artifacts around us that we innovate on. By the way, doesn't the Nurumberg Code outlaw such human experimentation?

I don't watch B5 since it turned to crap.
...This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old...ultraviolence.
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Post by Hotfoot »

UltraViolence83 wrote:Well good for them. Having a handicap only makes you stronger.
What are you smoking? Being blind or deaf makes you stronger? That's the second biggest load of nonsense I've heard today.
I got to thinking about that. If these deaf people don't mind being deaf, and see it as a type of subculture, then wouldn't they be opposed to wiping out deafness? Parents always want the best for their child, but they can go too far, such as not giving a fetus the chance to live because it may be born deaf isn't very ethical even by my standards of ethics. Such practices could lead to a reemergence of eugenics, which I oppose.
Deaf parents don't want their children to be CURED of deafness. We can cure it. Make it so that the children won't be deaf. It's not eugenics. Do you live on strawmen fallacies or something?
My example may be poor, but what I'm trying to get at is: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And don't try any funny business like labeling the things we improved on that weren't broken.
Your definition of "not broke" in this situation doesn't fit either. If science subscribed to your philosophy, we'd never have built computers, cars, airplanes, trains, or anything. Hell, we wouldn't have civilization, much less this conversation.
I'm talking about fundamentally changing human life, something that's supposed to be much more important than the machines and artifacts around us that we innovate on. By the way, doesn't the Nurumberg Code outlaw such human experimentation?
For fuck's sake, I'm not advocating Eugenics, you fool. Stop twisting things around. If you can't argue the point, don't. Learn about it some more, then come back when you have the requisite knowledge base to intelligently discuss it.
I don't watch B5 since it turned to crap.
The Telepath aspect of the storyline was covered throughout the entire series. Season 5 might not have been as good as Seasons 1-4, but it was still interesting, and there were some damn fine shows, but that has nothing to do with the discussion here.
Do not meddle in the affairs of insomniacs, for they are cranky and can do things to you while you sleep.
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"Every time you talk about Teal'c, I keep imagining Thor's ass. Thank you very much for that, you fucking fucker." -Marcao
SG-14: Because in some cases, "Recon" means "Blow up a fucking planet or die trying."
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Post by UltraViolence83 »

Look man, I'm tired, cranky and very opinionated on the subject of changing humans. Many people fucking get stronger with handicaps. They often have to work twice as hard as normal people to get by. The willpower of those individuals is remarkable.

the Nurumburg Code prohibits human experimentation. Increasing genetics-based intelligence requires experimentation.

Ok, I don't even know what the fuck I'm talking about anymore...This thread has degenerated from Tolkien-esque Elf immortality to the ethics and application of genetic engineering. God I'm cranky. :x I can't debate worth shit even when I'm more than semi-conscious so if you want to win, go ahead, though I'll continue to feel I'm right. I've read compelling evidence from geneticists and biologists that my views on genetics are correct. If you want to look it up, go check Google. I'm through. :roll:
...This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old...ultraviolence.
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Post by Hotfoot »

UltraViolence83 wrote:Look man, I'm tired, cranky and very opinionated on the subject of changing humans. Many people fucking get stronger with handicaps. They often have to work twice as hard as normal people to get by. The willpower of those individuals is remarkable.
Yes, it is. But arguing that handicapped people are inherantly better than none-handicapped people and should be kept around because they show incredible will is insane. They overcome adversity because they have no other choice. What you're suggesting is purposefully keeping people handicapped when there is a viable alternative (i.e. not being handicapped). That's babaric. For your next trick, will you advocate genital mutilation at birth because of the strength of will it takes to overcome such a thing?
the Nurumburg Code prohibits human experimentation. Increasing genetics-based intelligence requires experimentation.
No, really? Never mind that much of this could be done without even touching a human being in the first place (animal testing, anyone?). Let's look at the Nuremberg Code though, to see what it says on the subject.

"The experiment should be such as to yield fruitful results for the good of society, unprocurable by other methods or means of study, and not random and unnecessary in nature."

Oh, wait, it doesn't ban this sort of thing at all. Never mind then. :roll:
Ok, I don't even know what the fuck I'm talking about anymore...
I'd hazard a guess and say that trend started a bit earlier than you're letting on.
This thread has degenerated from Tolkien-esque Elf immortality to the ethics and application of genetic engineering. God I'm cranky. :x I can't debate worth shit even when I'm more than semi-conscious so if you want to win, go ahead, though I'll continue to feel I'm right.
Wonderful. So despite the fact that you're ignorant about the subject, you won't bother to educate yourself further, instead just relying on a gut instinct and faith. Brilliant. If you're tired and cranky, there's a simple solution to your problem, it's called sleep, look into it. Nobody is making you post here, least of all me. You are the ruler of your own destiny.

In the meantime, I suggest that you educate yourself. Starting, hopefully, with some reading comprehension courses so you can make sense of what it is others write.
I've read compelling evidence from geneticists and biologists that my views on genetics are correct. If you want to look it up, go check Google. I'm through. :roll:
Argument from authority. Sorry son, but that dog don't hunt. I've studied this sort of thing far more in depth than I'll bet you have.

Love the response though. "I'm right, search on google, it's there." I haven't heard that one since I dealt with kooks over at the JREF forums. :roll:
Do not meddle in the affairs of insomniacs, for they are cranky and can do things to you while you sleep.
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The Realm of Confusion
"Every time you talk about Teal'c, I keep imagining Thor's ass. Thank you very much for that, you fucking fucker." -Marcao
SG-14: Because in some cases, "Recon" means "Blow up a fucking planet or die trying."
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Post by UltraViolence83 »

You know what? I was about to send a reply to that, but fuck it. Fuck you. I can't debate worth shit and I'm not going to change your views on the subject as you won't change mine. I said I give up, what more do you want from me? I'm already going to get my ass handed to me as soon as midday rolls around and most of the board denizens see this and flame the hell out of me. I'm through. Understand this: You Win. You want to know what I really think? What I really fucking think? Frankly I find this shit greatly disturbing. I've only recently gotten over my incredible anxiety and paranoia of it (and many other things) by reading up on what certain geneticists and biologists have to say about it. This may not say much considering I just lost whatever crediblity I had in the past couple hours. But you know what? I don't care. It keeps my fucking head from exploding. It keeps me sane to know there's people like me. I didn't give you any links or names because I knew you would, even if they were very good arguments, just refute them anyway, because you're an optimist on this subject while I am highly skeptical of it. And since I can't prove that my views are correct, I'll just have to trust my gut that they are. I know it's not rational at all, but I have my fucking sanity staked on it.
...This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old...ultraviolence.
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Post by UltraViolence83 »

And I don't want to hear it from anyone else about how I fucked up and am a dumb-fuck. I know. I totally agree with everyone. I fucking give up.



Why the hell can I analyze my own neurosis while I'm going through it? It's like I'm a multi-personality, and one is a psycho and the other is a psychologist. But I'm not a schitzo or anything. At least I don't think so. Maybe bi-polar.


God DAMN IT I haven't had a nervous breakdown in months, now this. :evil: :x :evil:
...This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old...ultraviolence.
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Post by UltraViolence83 »

Oh god I can't believe I said all that. Now that I've calmed down it feels like I'm in a bad hangover and just realized I made an ass out of myself again. Ugh. What a day. Sorry about that for all involved.

Hotfoot, I really don't want to debate this. I'd site my ignorance of the subject but big reason is that I really don't want to be wrong regarding this issue. It freaks me out way too fucking much to even think about it. Gave me nightmares a couple times, too.
Nothing like a good flipping out, eh?

*Edited to make me look like less of a raving madman*
...This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old...ultraviolence.
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Post by Hotfoot »

UltraViolence83 wrote:Oh god I can't believe I said all that. Now that I've calmed down it feels like I'm in a bad hangover and just realized I made an ass out of myself again. Ugh. What a day. Sorry about that for all involved.
Fair enough. Do take in mind though that this is a message board. If at any time you don't feel up to responding, you don't have to. You have the ability to think through your posts before you write them and before you post them. Most importantly, if you aren't knowledgable of a subject, just don't make a huge deal over it. I'm not an expert on a great number of things, and where I find my knowledge lacking, I try to withhold a concrete judgement until I have a better understanding of the subject.
Hotfoot, I really don't want to debate this. I'd site my ignorance of the subject but big reason is that I really don't want to be wrong regarding this issue. It freaks me out way too fucking much to even think about it. Gave me nightmares a couple times, too.
Nothing like a good flipping out, eh?

*Edited to make me look like less of a raving madman*
What you want, I'm afraid, is irrelevant. I can want Spring Break to start now, but the fact of the matter is I've got to hold out until Friday. I can want there to be no class tomorrow so I can sleep in and do some work and relax some, but chances are that my lecture will occur right on schedule. I might want to live forever, but one day I will die. I don't want to die, I don't want to grow old and frail, I don't want to be just another tombstone or jar of ashes to be be forgotten as time marches on without me.

But it will happen. I will die. I will be forgotten by humanity as a whole. I doubt that five hundred years from now that I will be anything but a footnote on some child's family tree project for school, if that. Despite that, my mark will have been made in the world. In order to eradicate my existance from history, one would have to exterminate every single person I have ever influenced in any way, and any person that they had influenced in any way, and so on. It's like ripples in a pond. The only way to get rid of them all is to get rid of the pond.

That's what I believe. My ripples may not be big. They may not be world-shatteringly important, but they may well contribute to some larger wave one day, which is all that I really need.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm willing to argue the point, and if someone else presents a decent argument that uncovers a previously unseen flaw in my belief, then I will go back and revise it accordingly. This current belief structure is nothing like what I believed when I was much younger, when I was much more religious (that being relative, mind you). It's not healthy to not question what you believe, especially out of fear.

If the idea of Geneering really bothers you that much, I suggest that you learn as much as possible about it as you can, from as many different sources as possible. Of course, learning which sources are credible and which are not is going to help immeasurably in that process. Simply sticking your head in the sand will solve nothing.

Ultimately, the power to post is entirely in your hands. If you don't want a debate, then simply don't debate. As I said, nobody is forcing you to post. Nobody is stopping you from leaving, dropping the subject, and moving on. If you're really so disturbed by the concept, I really think it's in your best interests to resolve that problem as best you can. I'm not a qualified psychiatrist by any stretch of the imagination, but if you are having episodes of losing control like this, you should probably look into getting some help. Perhaps anger management or something like that. I know it's not exactly the greatest idea suggesting that in a discussion thread, but if it does affect you as seriously as you are indicating, it warrents further investigation.
Do not meddle in the affairs of insomniacs, for they are cranky and can do things to you while you sleep.
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"Every time you talk about Teal'c, I keep imagining Thor's ass. Thank you very much for that, you fucking fucker." -Marcao
SG-14: Because in some cases, "Recon" means "Blow up a fucking planet or die trying."
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Post by UltraViolence83 »

I'm kinda sick right now, feels like a bad hangover for me...I think whatever the hell compelled me to go nuts and get all incoherent like that may be physical symptoms of something. Actually, I did look into geneering somewhat in-depth (for what I consider in-depth when I look at things I'm interested in), I was fearful of its possiblilities and applications. It took me a long time to find reliable sources that held the same biases (what I was looking for was scientific justifications for my views, which is what I found after some digging around.) For the past year or so I would have bouts of paranoia stemming from my infrequent anxiety attacks...All concerning the future, like the deep future. Since then I've been trying to fit my views to be more consistent with reality, so my mental health has improved in the past few months. I do have a counselor, all I do is talk to him, and I feel better. Since I've spoken with him and been on this board like 90% of my anxiety and paranoia about many things has been killed. I felt like I was always alone, and I was growing more paranoid because I had no one else to talk to about such obscure topics. Now though, I feel much better. Geez I'm such a nutcase. :oops:
...This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old...ultraviolence.
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