Tolerance versus Bigotry? Easy!!!

Justforfun000 · Post by **Justforfun000** » 2002-08-19 02:24pm

I have popped in a few times to browse through some posts here, and I haven't had much time to participate. I came across Mike's site last year and was highly impressed with his creationism VS science dissertations.

I credit him with making me a much better debater as I used a lot of the information presented there, along with the understanding of how arguments can be classed as strawmans, red herrings, etc. You start recognizing the patterns people start using with their arguing, and you spot the cop-outs and lack of validity so much easier.

Anyhow, I just wanted to comment particularly on one part of a thread I saw that seems to be a really big issue with people.

The people that seem to be in sympathy with the religious minded folk suggest that we should be tolerant of everyone's views and beliefs, and hench we are being bigoted by criticizing their faiths. They even ask directly, Why? What does it hurt? Who are there beliefs affecting?

I'll tell you who. EVERYONE.

This seems to be something people aren't quite getting through their heads. Anything that you accept as true, and give any form of expression to, whether verbal or demonstrative, will affect other human beings.

Anyone who expresses the view that something is morally "sinful" to someone else, is then responsible for their actions and the subsequent response they are evoking in people. So that being the case, how can anyone say that we do not have the right to judge people's beliefs and actions? I had this argument ad nauseum with someone regarding the Marc Hall issue that was going on here in Toronto, and he just couldn't seem to get this. He kept screaming "hate-mongers" and "bigotry" anytime someone made the slightest criticism of the Church or it's teachings. To his mind, being Catholic is an identity and not a chosen set of beliefs. But that's where he was wrong. Homosexuals, blacks, asians, women, etc. These are all differing classes of human beings that are innate characteristics. No changing of them, ( well except the women some would argue.

). So that is where TRUE prejudice or bigotry would be displayed if someone judged them for simply BEING one of those things.

But it is NOT bigotry to judge someone for CHOSEN beliefs and labels that are contrary to what most people would consider moral and just. Not to mention reasonable.

So we all have the right to jump down anyone's throat who cannot justify their beliefs and actions by anything other than "I believe it". Especially when they are reprehensible to well-educated and humanistic individuals of society.

I refuse to BE tolerant any longer of people who are espousing hate with a smiling face. They may be ignorant, but I don't have to be tolerant of it. If you want to live in this world as a human being with rights, then you should have to LIVE like a human being and not a brainwashed puppet with a pull string that repeats the same tired old Biblical drivel of 2000 years ago.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2002-08-19 02:44pm

HERE HERE!

I pretty much agree with you completely. So far as I can tell, religion in any form is something someone chooses to believe in or is brainwashed into doing so. Not that religion is all bad, but the bad vastly outweighs any good I've seen.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-19 02:54pm

To put it another way

If religion is a matter of choice

What does that say about you?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-08-19 03:01pm

Agreed. Beliefs are a sacred cow, and I'm sick of it. We should be able to question and criticize them just as easily as religious people question and criticize secular laws or professional ethics.

Intolerance is a bad thing when it's violent, or the blind, unreasoning intolerance of the "you're different than me so you're evil" kind. But when someone can provide logical reasoning for criticizing a chosen belief, it's not unreasoning intolerance; it's legitimate criticism.

For example, Christian Scientists (a laughable self-description if I ever heard one) refuse to let their kids undergo life-saving surgical procedures. Is it "intolerance" to step in and forcibly take their kids? I don't think so. Many white supremacists believe that it's "God's Will" that the "sons of Ham" (read: dark-skinned people) should be subjugated under the white-skinned people of God. Is it "intolerance" to say they're full of shit?

Many intolerant Christian sects have become expert at appropriating the language of religious tolerance to their own ends. In effect, they ask us to accept the perverse idea that it is "intolerant" of us to resist their intolerance, because their intolerance is religious, while ours is based on mere humanitarian ethics.

Justforfun000 · Post by **Justforfun000** » 2002-08-19 03:28pm

Yes, one of the things I despise the most are people who act like your views are on a completely equal footing with theirs, even though you are wielding facts and evidence, while they throw out nothing more than appeals to authority and "I believe".

How they can think it's logical for their ideas to be possible as valid boggles me. They don't even feel they have to defend their point. There really has to be a serious lack of education at a person's basic level for them not to recognize irrationality that blatant.

IDMR · Post by **IDMR** » 2002-08-19 09:31pm

Christian Science is not just laughable, it's down right scurrilous. I wish we could sue them under the trade discription act.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2002-08-19 09:53pm

Most of these people whining about criticism and "bigotry" on this board ought to be slapped. Every thread pertaining to religion brings out at least half a dozen athiests, three of the four websites at Stardestroyer.net (the main site, the Creationism site, and Mike's home page) take repeated swipes at fundamentalism in particular and religion in general, and the damned webmaster and board admin has LOUDLY, and REPEATEDLY proclaimed both his athiesm and his poor tolerance for irrational, stupid, and bigoted people. Of COURSE if you dance around on this board proclaiming your belief in Creationism you're going to get criticized! And if you start talking about your religion in a science and LOGIC forum, you're going to have uncomfortable questions thrown at you.

If you want to talk about your faith in a warm and cuddly "Everyone's right!" forum, go somewhere else. I'm not an athiest. I've got my private beliefs, I'm comfortable with them, and I keep them private because NOBODY ON THIS BOARD CARES. If you're surprised and offended that people on this board would criticize your beliefs, you're a lint-headed idiot and you deserve what you get.

Rhadamanthus · Post by **Rhadamanthus** » 2002-08-19 10:02pm

I am proud to be bigoted against bigots

Especially the Christian bible-thumping kind

Justforfun000 · Post by **Justforfun000** » 2002-08-20 12:41pm

Right on. I think it's time we say we're proud to fight against religious creeds that are immoral.

Meghel · Post by **Meghel** » 2002-08-21 11:03am

Darth Wong wrote:Agreed. Beliefs are a sacred cow, and I'm sick of it. We should be able to question and criticize them just as easily as religious people question and criticize secular laws or professional ethics.

Truly, I agree with you completely!

It is everyone's right to critisize religion, science and whetever they want, as long as the critics do not become intolerant themselves.

I point this directly at you, Mr. Wong. I have no problem if you critisize my religion. But do not get intolerant.

Intolerance is a bad thing when it's violent, or the blind, unreasoning intolerance of the "you're different than me so you're evil" kind. But when someone can provide logical reasoning for criticizing a chosen belief, it's not unreasoning intolerance; it's legitimate criticism.

True; it is resonable to question a belief, That is completely legitimate.

However, it is preferable to keep the critics and discussion at least somehwhat civil. That keeps down the flamewars.

For example, Christian Scientists (a laughable self-description if I ever heard one) refuse to let their kids undergo life-saving surgical procedures. Is it "intolerance" to step in and forcibly take their kids? I don't think so. Many white supremacists believe that it's "God's Will" that the "sons of Ham" (read: dark-skinned people) should be subjugated under the white-skinned people of God. Is it "intolerance" to say they're full of shit?

True, completely outdated concepts.

I thought nobody believed in the "Sons of Ham"-concept anymore. Who does

Many intolerant Christian sects have become expert at appropriating the language of religious tolerance to their own ends. In effect, they ask us to accept the perverse idea that it is "intolerant" of us to resist their intolerance, because their intolerance is religious, while ours is based on mere humanitarian ethics.

Well, luckily I am not a member of such a sect, even though I am a Christian.

I myself am a member of a very moderate Christian group, the protestants.

But make no mistake; I too will try to convert people if given the chance. But if you tell me that you are not interested, I will not pursue the matter.

With regards,

Meghel

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2002-08-21 03:25pm

Meghel wrote:Well, luckily I am not a member of such a sect, even though I am a Christian...
...But make no mistake; I too will try to convert people if given the chance. But if you tell me that you are not interested, I will not pursue the matter.

Clue: You have the proper amount of zeal to be a Christian, but you are metaphorically getting out of the safari jeep and kicking the lions. Know what that means, metaphorically?

Basically, by approaching people with the intention to insist on a change in perspective or opinion for them, you probably don't consider the *opinion* they are forming of you for even trying to convert them. What's in it for you to convert other people to your faith anyway, when you know flat out that most people already either a) already have faith of their own or b) don't want it?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-08-21 08:15pm

Meghel wrote:I point this directly at you, Mr. Wong. I have no problem if you critisize my religion. But do not get intolerant.

Then why are you pointing this directly at me? I have not advocated any laws designed to make your religious beliefs illegal, nor have I stated that all Christians are evil. Are you trying to suggest that my aggressive attitude toward fundie morons is somehow tantamount to intolerance? Sorry, but that's not going to change. I see no reason to be polite when confronted with religious bigotry or scientific ignorance.

However, it is preferable to keep the critics and discussion at least somehwhat civil. That keeps down the flamewars.

I disagree. In fact, I feel strongly that people who are opposed to the fundies must get out there, get in their faces, and tell them exactly what we think of them, because they have grown quite comfortable in their little fantasy-world where they have the authority to dictate morality to all of us, the unsaved sheep. They have become quite comfortable insulting everyone who isn't Christian, and not expecting to be insulted in return. They have become quite comfortable claiming that immorality and evil are a direct result of "turning away from God", and not expecting anyone who doesn't believe in God to get angry at being called the source of evil in society. In short, they are accustomed to shitting all over everybody else and not having anyone stand up and say "fuck you" in return.

True, completely outdated concepts.

I thought nobody believed in the "Sons of Ham"-concept anymore. Who does

The founder of icr.org does, as do most white supremacists. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell have also spoken about the subject.

But make no mistake; I too will try to convert people if given the chance. But if you tell me that you are not interested, I will not pursue the matter.

If you ask someone "do you believe in God?" and he says "no", do you understand that this is a pre-emptive instruction not to try to convert him? If you persist after hearing that he is not a Christian, then you are being pushy. But this begs the question: who else would you try to convert, if not a non-Christian?

Sorry, but while you may deny it, any attempt to convert a known non-Christian to your religion is, in and of itself, pushy and intrusive, even if he hasn't told you to fuck off and leave him alone yet. By telling you that he does not believe in your God, he has already told you that he is not interested in having you try to convert him. Don't be an asshole and try to convert anyone who does not express interest on his own.

Justforfun000 · Post by **Justforfun000** » 2002-08-22 01:44pm

I disagree. In fact, I feel strongly that people who are opposed to the fundies must get out there, get in their faces, and tell them exactly what we think of them, because they have grown quite comfortable in their little fantasy-world where they have the authority to dictate morality to all of us, the unsaved sheep. They have become quite comfortable insulting everyone who isn't Christian, and not expecting to be insulted in return. They have become quite comfortable claiming that immorality and evil are a direct result of "turning away from God", and not expecting anyone who doesn't believe in God to get angry at being called the source of evil in society. In short, they are accustomed to shitting all over everybody else and not having anyone stand up and say "fuck you" in return.

Absolutely correct. I am tired of people who think it's perfectly fine to espouse their religious beliefs with the attitude of "I have the right to say whever I want to you as long as I quote the Good book, and you should always be polite and never criticize me back. That's rude, intolerant and persecution of Christians."

Well fuck you and the horse you rode in on. Or maybe I should say donkey.

Let me make it clear right off the bat that I am not in any way intolerant of Christians for being Christian. I have many views that would still fit in comfortably with SELECTED parts of Christianity. But I have NO tolerance for fundamentalists, or people that refuse to be honest with themselves, or evidence. People turning a blind eye, or an indifferent eye to contrary evidence about life in relation to their religious thought are being selfish, irresponsible fools. Truth and reality are what they are. Our views do not make them so.

Oh, I'm sure some of you have heard this quote before, but I'll throw it out in case you missed it. I love it.

"Do you ever notice how people so eager to share their religious views with you are almost never interested in hearing yours"?

I just wish that it was mandatory to have people attend a classroom for a week once a year. Simply for the purpose of feeling out their knowledge, updating them on what is truly FACT now, and seeing if they learned their logic and reason skills well enough to be considered rational.

The problem with adulthood is there is very little further learning except for what is chosen to be learned. So all the people we have missed when they were younger, especially in regards to poor educational curriculum, are now for the rest of their lives part of society with limited knowledge that affects every other person they are in contact with.

It's sad there isn't enough effort placed on preventing and correcting root causes of human ignorance and intolerance.

Oh, one more quote I love:

"When I was younger, I prayed to God for a bike. Then I realized that God didn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness."

Raziel · Post by **Raziel** » 2002-08-23 04:42am

I disagree. In fact, I feel strongly that people who are opposed to the fundies must get out there, get in their faces, and tell them exactly what we think of them, because they have grown quite comfortable in their little fantasy-world where they have the authority to dictate morality to all of us, the unsaved sheep. They have become quite comfortable insulting everyone who isn't Christian, and not expecting to be insulted in return

THANK YOU!!!! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! It's about bloody time someone said it. I go to school with a number of Christians, and I consistently find myself rubbing them the wrong way. Conversations often work something like this...
Me: "So how do you know the bible is preaching truth?"
Them: "Because the bible is God's word."
Me: "Yes, but how do you know it's god's word?"
Them: "Because the bible says so."
Me: "Kill me now. Please."

I used to feel somewhat guilty for shaking the foundations of their entire world, but I eventually realised that they NEED to have their beliefs challenged. They sure as hell aren't going to do any critical thinking by themselves. When they cry 'bigotry!' I respond with either 'oh, so denouncing my beliefs as heretical is ok, but challenging yours isn't?" or "blow me", depending on my mood.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2002-08-23 08:32am

Not that long ago, I went to this Christian youth service/bible study group (mostly at the persuasion of a Christian friend of my, and I usually don't have anything better to do on a Sunday), and at first it seemed okay. Everything seemed okay, the "leader" and the "regular" were friendly enough, and the thing seemed persuasive yet pretty sensible and enjoyable...
Then about the fourth time I went, the leader was starting to talk about external influence, and somehow lead into him talking about "Buffy the Vampire Slayer". And how at first Willow was using a little bit of magic to help fight evil, and then as the show goes on Willow goes into Wicca and lesbianism, and yaddi yaddi yadda. I thought to myself: "Come on, don't tell me he is going to go into all that kinda ignorant Christian Bible Thumping crap!"

Anyway, as you might have guessed, I just shook my head and said fuck it to ever going to that bible study group again. I still don't know what ever thinking, going there... Maybe my dad being one of the few sensible Christian influenced me more than I thought...

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-08-26 08:56pm

Just to say that the bigotists are only part of the problem. They are a bunch of ignorant/misguided/opportunists who have always existed. Their power has varied from high to very low and it seems to be rising again. Why?
Education, education, education. Every time some quick thinking politician reduces math/science classes in favour of useful (for his career) subjects like civic/religious/sports/etc (I don't know about the States, but here we now have..sexual education for the young) ignorance increases. It is just hard to believe how badly the majority of superior degrees handle science. Science is not just for scientists, and no one should be allowed to leave college without at least some real knowlege of the scientific method and how it works. Or we are doomed to be ruled by people who say the best way to prevent fires is to cut down the trees (oops,already happened).
Television, television, television. It is very easy to watch a program about abductions/witches/miracles/etc. But how many times they put a credulous stupid being narrating and conducting interviews as opposed to someone actually with a brain? Hell, most programs should be x-rated and be forced to have a warning about being potentially hazardous to the brain.
Ignorant people are easy to subdue. Without proper scientific training, people with problems are prey to organizations which promise this world and/or the other. And they grow in power and start dictating therms to all the others.
That is what must be stopped.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-26 09:07pm

When he was asked if he was ruler of the world what Confusious would do he said simply

Feed them

When ask what he would do after that he said

Educate them

Why has it taken the rest of the popluation 2500 Years to Relise what an Old Chineese Man knew all the way back then?

Bryan · Post by **Bryan** » 2002-08-27 01:39am

Just to say something here:

After reading some threads here the atheists here are quite intolerant of Creationism and Christians in general, which is either hypocritical or a mild form of bigotry.

I always hear that atheists get the shit end of the stick for their beliefs, yet is that an excuse to give Christians a shitty time? And ridiculing some basic beliefs becuase you don't happen to agree with them?

I find atheism to be wrong, but I don't go out and insult everything about it. I mrley say it is wrong in my *opinion* and leave it at that. I have no need to go and insult them up the ying yang like some atheists insult Christians here.

Antediluvian · Post by **Antediluvian** » 2002-08-27 03:40am

Bryan wrote:Just to say something here:

After reading some threads here the atheists here are quite intolerant of Creationism and Christians in general, which is either hypocritical or a mild form of bigotry.

I always hear that atheists get the shit end of the stick for their beliefs, yet is that an excuse to give Christians a shitty time? And ridiculing some basic beliefs becuase you don't happen to agree with them?

I find atheism to be wrong, but I don't go out and insult everything about it. I mrley say it is wrong in my *opinion* and leave it at that. I have no need to go and insult them up the ying yang like some atheists insult Christians here.

Christian Fundamentalists are insulted here, Bryan, not all Christians. There's a difference.

And yes, we ridicule the Bible and Creationism. Both are highly illogical and ridiculous.

Why shouldn't we give Fundamentalists a hard time? They are constantly harassing and slandering those of a secular bent, other religions, and even other Christians. Then they start whining when their victims retaliate. That's too bad.

If they don't want to be attacked, then they shouldn't attack others.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-08-27 06:36am

Bryan wrote:Just to say something here:

After reading some threads here the atheists here are quite intolerant of Creationism and Christians in general, which is either hypocritical or a mild form of bigotry.

Not of moderate Christians, but of creatonism certainly. Evolution is not a theory, is a fact, and denying it resembles denying gravitional attraction. Creatonist ideas are simply a proof of ignorance, and ignorance is not evil by itself. But when we have several people (including presidents) proudly broadcasting their ignorance and trying to impose it on everybody else, then we have a Big Problem.

And the way to expose frauds is not being silent about it, but fighting whenever possible. Not to make fun of hard headed creationists (though they seem to ask for it) but to make sure the others are fully informed about the facts.

Bryan · Post by **Bryan** » 2002-08-27 01:52pm

I always thought evolution was called the Theory of Evolution becuase it was a theory, isn't that so?

When you insult creationists you insult moderate Christians like myself. I don't believe in total evolution nor do I believe in total creationism. Now I will probably be insulted and ridiculed for this, why I do not know.

Religion plays a large role in the lives of billions of people on this planet. Billions. So if President Bush wishes to say Jesus is his hero or role model, what is wrong with this? If I recall America is supposed to be all about letting other express their opinions and thoughts freely. You don't have to accept them at all, I don't accept many opinions from many people.

But it all comes down to it that when you insult creationists you insult hundreds of millions of Christians, moderate, non fundamentalist Christians. I'm a Catholic, and proud to be one. I'm not an evangelist, nor do I support enangelism or funamentalism.

So I'd appreciate it if many people here would stop expressing bigoted or hypocritical opinions on Christians.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-08-27 02:48pm

Bryan wrote:I always thought evolution was called the Theory of Evolution becuase it was a theory, isn't that so?

It's a theory and a fact. Just a thought, can you even properly define a scientific theory?

When you insult creationists you insult moderate Christians like myself.

Creationist are fucking idiots because their belief that an ancient Babylonian myth is more valid than modern science is itself a fucking idiotic belief.

I don't believe in total evolution nor do I believe in total creationism. Now I will probably be insulted and ridiculed for this, why I do not know.

That is the Golden Mean fallacy. And yes you will be insulted because you're an indecisive twit who can't seem to get the fence pole out of his ass and decide between modern science and old tribal myths. Just save yourself the effort of logical thought and side with creationism. You know you want to.

Religion plays a large role in the lives of billions of people on this planet.

Large role, not necessarily good role. Do you know what the appeal to popularity fallacy is?

So if President Bush wishes to say Jesus is his hero or role model, what is wrong with this?

He did it to buy votes from morons like yourself. Gore did the same thing. It is the moderate Christians who should be mad over this. They're the one's being pandered to and having their faith trivialized.

If I recall America is supposed to be all about letting other express their opinions and thoughts freely.

You can say the sun revolves around the earth all you want without fear of being thrown in jail. However you're still a fucking idiot.

But it all comes down to it that when you insult creationists you insult hundreds of millions of Christians, moderate, non fundamentalist Christians.

When you insult creationist, you are insulting creationist. If the moderates don't want to be seen as scientiffically ignorant, they would move to have the first part of Genesis removed form the Bible. I don't see them doing that. Do you?

So I'd appreciate it if many people here would stop expressing bigoted or hypocritical opinions on Christians.

Anyone who believes in creationism is a literal moron. Deal with it.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-27 02:52pm

You can say the sun revolves around the earth all you want without fear of being thrown in jail. However you're still a fucking idiot.

Heh I still remeber the first time I met people who think thats true

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2002-08-27 03:06pm

quote:

Originally posted by Bryan:
I always thought evolution was called the Theory of Evolution becuase it was a theory, isn't that so?

It's a theory and a fact. Just a thought, can you even properly define a scientific theory?

A theory in science is not the same as a theory in regular life, like "my theory is the rabbits are eating my tomatoes and not the moles."

At least thats what I remember. If Im wrong someone help out.

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-08-27 03:51pm

USAF Ace wrote:When you insult creationist, you are insulting creationist. If the moderates don't want to be seen as scientiffically ignorant, they would move to have the first part of Genesis removed form the Bible. I don't see them doing that. Do you?

Why haven't you removed references to phlogiston from ancient science literature?