Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by UnderAGreySky »

Armstrong was a bully
...Armstrong as he told doctors that he had taken an array of performance-enhancing drugs including EPO, testosterone, growth hormone and cortisone.

Armstrong made the confession having recently undergone surgery after being diagnosed with cancer. Andreu had been present because her fiancé (now husband) Frankie was a professional cyclist and one of Armstrong’s most valued team-mates.

For several years, the confession was known only to the six people who heard it. But when Andreu, who was so fiercely opposed to drug-taking that she had told Frankie she would not marry him if she found he had doped, helped to make the story public, she was subjected to sustained abuse and bullying by Armstrong and those around him, who sustained the myth of his heroism until it was so dramatically exposed over the past few weeks.
she found a Thermos of EPO in Frankie’s fridge. She would later recount: “I thought it was best for him to get off Lance’s team. Frankie promised me he would not use EPO anymore. Frankie then refused to go on the extensive doping programme written for most of his team-mates by [disgraced doctor] Michele Ferrari. Indeed Frankie’s refusal to follow Ferrari’s methods meant he was cast off the team in 2000.”

The relationship with Armstrong became even more bitter as he sought to persuade her to sign a false statement, denying the hospital confession had taken place.

“The more dismissed I got, the more Frankie got dismissed in cycling and when it affects Frankie, it affects me,’’ Betsy said. “Frankie didn’t try and stifle me, he respected me to be the vocal person. You have to do the right thing, imagine if I had lied, how would my reputation be now?”

Prompted by his wife, Frankie admitted doping. That was when the harassment and attempted intimidation by Armstrong ramped up. In an email, Armstrong warned Frankie he should keep Betsy quiet: “By helping to bring me down is not going to help y’alls situation at all. There is a direct link to all of our success here. I suggest you remind her of that,” Armstrong wrote.

Armstrong ridiculed Betsy at every opportunity. "The worst day was in 2006 when my deposition [about the hospital evidence] was leaked and Frankie had left that day to go to France so I was left here alone,” she said. “I was being described by Lance as fat and ugly. That doesn’t matter, but the crux of the matter is people believed him that I was crazy and unhinged and they just bumped me.
More at the site.

This gets worse with each new article coming out. Sometimes, it is a witch hunt only because it is a witch that is being hunted.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by mr friendly guy »

Victims of Lance Armstrong's intimidation
Doping might sometimes be a victimless crime, but not in the case of Lance Armstrong, whose drug abuse and illicit blood transfusions created a phony empire of wealth, adulation and power that had to be protected at all costs.

The Armstrong myth was so lucrative that suppressing the truth came to require an endless behind-the-scenes campaign to bully and intimidate people into silence. Some of it bordered on gangsterism. Some of it was dressed up in the respectable wardrobe of elite law firms. But mostly it was just hot air - a fact that by 2010 had become clear enough to Floyd Landis that he stepped up and burst the bubble, blowing the whistle on the whole big fraud.
A lot of times Armstrong himself didn’t have to lift a finger. Enough people were invested in his lies that they became foot soldiers in his deceptions. We published on our website a voicemail where an Armstrong friend — a representative of one of his most loyal sponsors — tells one of his accusers, Betsy Andreu, the wife of a former Armstrong teammate, that she hopes “somebody breaks a baseball bat over (her) head.” We published transcripts of a deposition in which Armstrong’s ex-wife isn’t allowed to answer questions about Armstrong and doping because Armstrong’s lawyer won’t allow her to.
Here is the relevant threat, in the first few seconds of the video. The original video is from the link I put up in this post.

Here is the thing. Whether Armstrong had an exemplary lifestyle outside of cycling is besides the point of whether a) he doped and b) whether he made other people dope / helped them dope

But if people want to play that "exemplary" lifestyle card, then his examples of witness intimidation from threatening to sue (and then doing nothing except wasting the court's time) and having friends who threaten to assault others to protect Armstrong's reputation surely must cast doubt on his "exemplary" lifestyle.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Interesting that video was uploaded two years ago, just shows you how long they've been fighting to keep the truth from getting out.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

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According to CNN the neutral arbitrators will be chosen in the following manner.

1. Armstrong chooses his arbitrator.
2. USADA chooses their arbitrator.
3. Each of the chosen arbitrators chooses a third arbitrator.

A quick search seems to back it up as the court of arbitration for sport describes this process as well.

So USADA gets to choose one third of the arbitrators, Armstrong gets to choose one third as well. Someone else chooses the final arbitrator. Somehow this is unfair to Armstrong? :wtf: Notice how Armstrong's supporters never mention this little detail on choosing the arbitrators just endlessly droning on how it would be unfair wah wah wah and try and distract from the evidence presented against him with an obvious ad hominem.

I think that shatters the last myth of Armstrong apologists.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by amigocabal »

I never understood why performance enhancing drugs should be banned. I would not have banned them from any sport. As Washington Post columnist Braden Allenby wrote,.
Braden Allenby of the Washington Post wrote:To perform consistently, 21st-century athletes enhance legally with better gear, specialized diets, physical trainers, vitamin B, and energy drinks and gels. Why not add drugs and other technologies to the list of legal enhancements, especially when most of us are enhancing our workplace concentration with a morning coffee or energy shot?

In my engineering and sustainability classes, I ask my students how many have played sports in high school or college. Usually, at least half raise their hands. Then I ask how many know people who enhanced illegally. The hands stay up, even if I limit the question to high school athletes. Enhancement — legal or illegal, according to confused, arbitrary and contradictory criteria — is pervasive. Indeed, surveys show that significant numbers of non-athletes, especially in high school and college, use steroids to try to improve their appearance rather than to augment their play on the field. This should not be surprising, given the popularity of other cosmetic-enhancement techniques such as discretionary plastic surgery, even among young people.

Armstrong’s alleged doping in the Tour de France is just more evidence that human excellence is increasingly a product of enhancement.
To be sure, I do not agree with everything Allenby wrote. In particular, "[w]hether Armstrong cheated" is "the core consideration" in this issue. Armstrong explicitly agreed to a set of rules, and then not only willfully violated them, he assisted others in doing so, thus aggravating his own cheating. But on the issue of whether these drugs should be illegal, I agree with him.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by Irbis »

amigocabal wrote:I never understood why performance enhancing drugs should be banned. I would not have banned them from any sport. As Washington Post columnist Braden Allenby wrote.
How about these reasons, for a start? :roll:

Supposed columnist "engineer" who doesn't understand difference between providing richer air mix and better oils in order to gain better engine performance from "giving it better performance" by running it past point of seizure, especially when "engines" in question are human beings, is, frankly, an imbecile.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by Simon_Jester »

Another reason- the whole point of athletes bothering to compete at all is that it's about them, not about who's taking the most steroids. Food and vitamins are one thing; drugs that alter your physiology to make you outcompete anyone who doesn't similarly alter themselves are another matter. If you do that, then your 'victory' in the competition doesn't mean anything. Any more than it would mean something if I won the Tour de France by using a motorcycle where everyone else was using a regular bicycle.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by Alyeska »

Fuck you Lance. He should be stripped of every title. The advertisers should sue him into the grave to recover their money from this liar.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Even when the USADA case became public. And he is still a fucking cheater.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

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To be honest, in regards to EPO, if Lance didn't suffer a pulmonary embolus or a heart attack while he was using it, it most probably isn't going to be the cause if he has one later in life, since it works by increasing red cells, and red blood cells has a half life of around 3 months. With too many red cells the blood won't flow properly (think of it like muddy water, where the red cells are the mud), which causes these diseases. You could most probably thank the UCI rule of limiting haematocrit count for that blessing, otherwise I wouldn't be surprised if people starting riding with dangerous levels of red blood cells without realising it.

Growth hormone is a bit of a tough one. People with chronic growth hormone excess like Sun Mingming or Robert Wadlow could run into potential problems, but thats because they have a freaking tumour in their brain causing the secretion of growth hormone. I doubt Lance would get acromegaly symptoms but he will most probably get some of the blood pressure and cardiac problems from growth hormone.

Steroids of course remain the most problematic, although Lance's doctors were smart enough to prescribe low amounts. Still I wouldn't take it nor prescribe it without a medical reason to.

My view of prescribing drugs to win sports could be summed up in that Simpson's episode where Homer visits Dr Hibbert to tell him how to gain weight so he can work from home instead of at the nuclear power plant. Dr Hibbert tells him its immoral because its causing harm to Homer's health, so Homer goes to Dr Nick Riveira instead. It seems like there are some doctors who are willing to do a Nick Riveira and prescribe drugs for non medical reasons, potential health consequences be damned. Because winning the Tour de France is really that important apparently. If an athlete wants to take the risk of harm to win an event, then they can take responsibility for it and do it themselves without involvement of medical staff.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

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Lets do a thought experiment. Lets say the UCI decides fuck it, let athletes dope as much as they want. Assuming enough people like Braden Allenby or some Armstrong apologists are still willing to watch, fine and dandy right? They lose a bit of revenue, but then its cheaper to run as they don't run anti doping programs any more.

What happens if athletes try and push it. IIRC steroids were banned because they were associated with the premature death of athletes. So lets say an athlete pushes the EPO and runs dangerous levels of haematocrit. What happens if they die. Will people still want to watch such a competition? Sure people have died participating in sports before, but generally they try to minimise the risk. Here we are doing the opposite to some degree. Wouldn't the bad publicity force the UCI to again go bank to an anti doping stance? Or at least adopt measures like limiting the acceptable haematocrit levels, which leads them back to square one.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

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mr friendly guy wrote:What happens if athletes try and push it. IIRC steroids were banned because they were associated with the premature death of athletes. So lets say an athlete pushes the EPO and runs dangerous levels of haematocrit. What happens if they die. Will people still want to watch such a competition? Sure people have died participating in sports before, but generally they try to minimise the risk. Here we are doing the opposite to some degree. Wouldn't the bad publicity force the UCI to again go bank to an anti doping stance? Or at least adopt measures like limiting the acceptable haematocrit levels, which leads them back to square one.
Seeing a lot of people want "blood" (say, these watching racing sports for flashy crashes) I'd say that while a lot of decent people would be turned off, you'd gain audience wanting people collapsing during race. For them, it wouldn't be a bug, but feature, so to speak, morality and similar silly questions be damned. It's just TV picture, not real people suffering, right?
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

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mr friendly guy wrote:If an athlete wants to take the risk of harm to win an event, then they can take responsibility for it and do it themselves without involvement of medical staff.
To expand a bit more, keeping children from doping is already hard enough as it is and these drugs have much larger adverse effects on developing bodies. By having a sports system that says "doping is ok" is just going to lead kids into doping at earlier and earlier ages (and/or parents and coaches giving them the ::wink wink nudge nudge::) so they can get a leg-up on the competition. No aspiring professional athlete is going to give two shits about "it's ok for adults, but not for you."

If pro-sports wasn't so deeply ingrained into society, people might be able to justify the "let athletes use themselves up" route. But as it stands right now, there's much more going on than just athlete safety.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by Darth Yan »

damn it. I wanted to defend him, but those threats....yeah that makes it hard. I mean I respect that he tried to raise cancer awareness and respect him surviving it, but god damn it lance? did you have to be a dickbag?
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

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Darth Yan wrote:damn it. I wanted to defend him, but those threats....yeah that makes it hard. I mean I respect that he tried to raise cancer awareness and respect him surviving it, but god damn it lance? did you have to be a dickbag?
If you read into it further you see that his Live Strong organization did not spend its money very wisely and you start to wonder how much it actually did help cancer research.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

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mr friendly guy wrote:Lets do a thought experiment. Lets say the UCI decides fuck it, let athletes dope as much as they want. Assuming enough people like Braden Allenby or some Armstrong apologists are still willing to watch, fine and dandy right? They lose a bit of revenue, but then its cheaper to run as they don't run anti doping programs any more.

What happens if athletes try and push it. IIRC steroids were banned because they were associated with the premature death of athletes. So lets say an athlete pushes the EPO and runs dangerous levels of haematocrit. What happens if they die. Will people still want to watch such a competition?
Cyclists actually did die in numbers in the early days of EPO use before they got things figured out. Back then they didn't have a test for EPO and the teams didn't quite have a handle on the drug yet and didn't know how far they could push hematocrit levels. There was a rash of unexplained deaths where cyclists dropped dead in their sleep as their blood clogged up, soon after that the teams dialed things back a bit and put in a procedure where the athletes would wear heart rate monitors to sleep. If their heart rate dropped below a certain number, it would set off an alarm and the athlete would have to wake up & exercise to get their circulation going fast before their bloodflow clogged and killed them.

From talking to friends into road cycling, this was all fairly well known back in those days and it didn't hurt the popularity of the sport. It was just another one of those unspoken things.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

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It gets better. An excerpt from Cycling News
The drug erythropoietin — better known as EPO – has been splashed across headlines lately, bringing down Tour de France legend Lance Armstrong and exposing the cycling world's biggest doping scandal. But less well known is the fact that EPO's drug maker, Amgen, is fighting several lawsuits about its alleged illegal drug deals, including pushing high doses on cancer patients. Indeed, the title sponsor of the Tour of California will soon pay nearly $1 billion to settle charges that it gave "free" EPO to doctors and encouraged them to bill for the extra doses.

The company has spent more than a year trying to resolve 10 whistle-blower lawsuits with prosecutors from 15 different states. Sometime in the next few months, it's expected to pay up and, when it does, it'll put a capstone on EPO's remarkable commercial run.

In a way, Amgen lucked into selling what became the first biotech blockbuster. A researcher named Eugene Goldwasser had spent 20 years trying to isolate this protein, and his 1972 breakthrough was considered one of the great scientific contributions in the 20th century. Goldwasser wanted to work with a company to develop EPO's potential and, in the early 1980s, approached a high-tech start-up in California. As it was, financier Franklin "Pitch" Johnson, investment banker Bill Bowes and Abbott Labs' executive George Rathmann had just formed Amgen and needed a "hot" product. When Goldwasser offered to share his cache of the world's only supply of purified EPO, Amgen jumped. U.S. taxpayers may have spent decades and a king's ransom helping Goldwasser unlock the secrets of this protein. But Amgen grabbed the rights to it for a song.

The company spent years trying to clone the gene. In late 1983, Amgen raised $40 million in an initial public offering underwritten by Smith Barney, Dean Witter and Montgomery Securities, founded by amateur cyclist Thom Weisel, who also financed the U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team led by Armstrong.
Gotta love what happens when you follow the money. The person who financed the USPS cycling team had a significant financial involvement in the company that makes EPO. You can't make this shit up.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by Dalton »

BREAKING: Early reports of the content of Oprah's interview say that Armstrong admitted to doping. The interview airs Thursday.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by mr friendly guy »

Yeah I heard about it too, but I was going to wait for the actual interview before posting, just in case the leaked content turns out to be a hoax. How long until the interview turns up on youtube?
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by Flagg »

I told you so. Everyone who claimed Armstrong didn't do it owes me a donation to the NRA.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by aerius »

In preparation for the Oprah interview.
Or you can toss the phrases in a hat, pick 3, and have a drinking game.

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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

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Alyeska wrote:Fuck you Lance. He should be stripped of every title. The advertisers should sue him into the grave to recover their money from this liar.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Even when the USADA case became public. And he is still a fucking cheater.
This. I believed him for a long time, for a number of reasons. I thought it was about taking down an American who had the audacity to set a Tour de France record, and some regulators getting a big trophy. I said many times that I thought he was clean.

Well, don't I feel like an asshole now? Turns out it was about a small, derided group of people who just might be able to restore some standards to their sport, but not as long as its biggest icon was a cheat and a liar.

Coming clean now gets Lance no points now, after a decade of lying. AMF, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by Darth Yan »

I feel like an asshole to somewhat, but largely because he turned out to be a bully. I could overlook the drug use (since for all intents and purposes, in a race full of dopers he was still technically the best), but the fact that he tried to get others in on it and bullied people who threatened to expose him is beyond forgivable.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by LaCroix »

That's one of the reasons why I'm in favor of a jail sentence for doping. It is fraud, plain and simple. Once it becomes clear that you not only face disqualification, but jail and lawsuits for refund of all sponsor money and prices won, sports will clean up quickly.
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by SomeDude »

Frankly, I don't see a qualitative difference between the unhealthy special diets that professional cyclists have and chemicals. They're both going to screw around with your health and improve your performance. It's an arbitrary line (which doesn't necessarily mean that such a line needn't be drawn, ofcourse).
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Re: Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

Post by ChaserGrey »

I don't think I'd feel this way if he'd owned up with all the other cyclists, when it came out that doping was endemic in the sport a few years back. Then I might say hey, look, everyone did it, he was still the best in a field where everyone was doped, let's acknowledge that the sport as a whole hit a low point and just move forward.

But he didn't do that. Instead, Armstrong spent years insisting that he was special, that everybody else may have been doped but he didn't, and that he'd won based on natural talent alone. He didn't lie by omission, or passively cultivate that impression. He said it, over and over, reaped millions of dollars in endorsement deals, and convinced a lot of people to defend him.

And it was all a lie.

I know he won't go to jail. Maybe the law should be changed and maybe not, I'm not going to judge that in the heat of the moment. But I am done believing anything the man says or supporting any of his endeavors. How can I tell if anything he says is true or not?
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