Missing Primarchs (40K)

[Manus Celer Dei]

Okay! So, the two missing Primarchs have been a long-running mystery in 40K lore, and the Horus Heresy books have dropped a lot of clues about them. The hints in Angel Exterminatus, I think, make it pretty clear what happened.

To review what we know:

• The records of the two Primarchs and their legions were expunged some time before the Heresy, possibly still while the Great Crusade was in it's infancy.
• The First Heretic mentions following the two legion's erasure the Ultramarines got a sudden upswell in recruits, implying that some or all of the expunged legions warriors - or at least their in-training recruits - were absorbed into Rowboat Girlyman's legion.
• In The Lightning Tower Rogal Dorn visits a gallery of statues of the Primarchs on Terra and, looking at the empty plinths belonging to the missing Primarchs, wonders whether what happened to them should been thought of as "a warning". Note that later on in the The Lightning Tower the concept of Chaos is explained to Rogal by Malcador, so he couldn't have been thinking of Chaos corruption or similiar.
• Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons both make mention of the Emperor keeping the Space Wolves specifically for hot sweaty Astartes-on-Astartes action, and that he's used them before in matter - I believe in Prospero Burns Russ says he's used them as "executioners".
• In Angel Exterminatus there's a flashback to when Perturabo was climbing the Emperor's tower in order to swear loyalty to him.The narrative says that the climb was a test of willpower and loyalty to the Emperor's ideal, that each of Perturabo's Primarch brothers had made the same climb, and that some had been found wanting

In conjunction with the other information, I think the last one shows what happened: whoever the missing Primarchs were, they must have decided they didn't want to go along with the Emperor's plan and turned against the Imperium, possibly along with their legion, requiring the Space Wolves to put them down. It makes me wonder as to how it happened twice, however, unless the two happened at the same time.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Is there not also some quote from Malcador to Dorn along the lines of "they are never spoken of; their terrible and seperate tragedies are unknown to all but the Emperor."

[Simon_Jester]

They may have both dissented from the Emperor. Some possibilities come to mind here.

[wautd]

Where there any hints on the sex of the missing Primarchs? Or have they always been male? (I just think a 40K Primarch version of Maria Magdalena would be cool ).

[Simon_Jester]

The default would be male- canon references in 40k always point to males.

Since (so far, happily) they haven't published any direct facts explaining exactly what was going on with those two primarchs, though... there's enough room to imagine such a thing if you like. It has some appeal, just for making the background history less of a boys' club.

[cuts off further speculation, no time. Darn]

[Black Admiral]

The First Heretic mentions following the two legion's erasure the Ultramarines got a sudden upswell in recruits, implying that some or all of the expunged legions warriors - or at least their in-training recruits - were absorbed into Rowboat Girlyman's legion.

As I recall, ADB's since stated that that was intended simply as the Word Bearers talking cock, and wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Besides, if that was going to happen to bolster any Legion, it'd be the Failure Marines, who are also known as the Word Bearers - the Ultramarines actually have a decent recruitment infrastructure.

[J Ryan]

They must have been removed or destroyed really early in the Crusade as the point is made when the Emperor found Corax, he specifically states there are 17 other primarchs, when Corax asks how he was number 19 then, the Emperor got all misty eyed.

However they may not be gone completely though as there was the mention in Mechanicum, to Dorn contemplating that there were a possible 2 other legions he could call on, before Malcador told him not to bother as they were lost.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I still say that one of the two pulled a tristan, and is banbing some farseer out there somewhere...

my current theory on the otehr one is that he's gone and taken his boys and his toys out of the galaxy on some sorta 40k long walk. He's probably what the Nids are running from....

[Dr. Trainwreck]

The whole Ultramarines conspiracy theory is quite stupid if you think what it actually entails. The Emperor sent the Space Wolves to destroy two rebellious Primarchs, and quite possibly whoever was loyal to them, then ordered a damnatio memoriae which actually succeeded in hiding the operation from all but the Astartes (who also, two million of them, kept it a secret even with thousands of remembrancers and millions of auxiliaries running around). And then, not only he kept the warriors of the purged legions alive, he returned them to active service.

That, and he gave them all to the one Legion who had the least problem with... well, everything. Seriously, the Ultramarines must've been set up the best. Why not give the assholes to the Wolves so the story is as contained as possible? Or the Night Lords, or the World Eaters, whose legions would have been saved if they had a few non-psychopathic people? The Sons of Horus were led by the chosen son and also fought the most; the Iron Warriors were breaking themselves apart in siege after siege; the Thousand Sons never went more than ten thousand by themselves...

[Zinegata]

They could have also mass mind-wiped the survivors from the two legions. It's being done in "present" 40K on Astartes deemed to have seen too many daemonic things.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Well they mug classic myth for storylines so I could just see nothing worse in the Emp, or the Imperium's eyes than if one of their primarchs put down the bolter, and shacked up with somebody, living a nice quiet life.

[Kojiro]

There is a picture of Malcador the Sigillite, sitting on some sort of throne. In the arm rests of the throne, one on each side, there is a skull. The skull on the right has a II on it and the one on the left XI. Coincidentally the numbers of the missing legions. The skulls do look to be normal human sized, far smaller than a primarch, but it seems to be a connection.

[Ahriman238]

Also in the First Heretic (surprised people didn't mention this earlier) Magnus turns up to comfort Lorgar after Monarchia, he mentions that there was serious discussion over whether or not to outright purge the Word Bearers, and Lorgar asks if we would have winded up like the two lost ones.

It is also revealed that at least both Lorgar and Magnus know exactly what happened, but were sworn to such secrecy they dare not even discuss it between themselves in private. I think (can check) that they were sworn to never speak of it again, ever.

Oh, and whatever happened with the Lost Primarchs went down long before Ullanor, which was itself decades before the creation of the remembrancers.

In Mechanicum, Malcador catches Rogal Dorn staring wistfully at the missing plinths, thinking how much they could use the extra manpower now, and tells him such wishes are foolish and what happened, happened, and for good reason.


Out of universe, IIRC, GW first wrote it that way to leave it open to interpretation and imagination, having two Primarchs, one Chaos, one Loyal you could claim your army descended from if you didn't like any of the ones they had.

[Kojiro]

Out of universe, IIRC, GW first wrote it that way to leave it open to interpretation and imagination, having two Primarchs, one Chaos, one Loyal you could claim your army descended from if you didn't like any of the ones they had.

That's long been the general idea, but ultimately I think it's just a consequence of a lack of forethought (though honestly I can't blame them). In reality, Rogue Trader in its introduction to marines states there are over a thousand, that those shown are just a sample and that players should feel free to create their own. Back when those two legions were declared 'expunged' I really think they were just supposed to be lost in the past, a casualty of time like so much technology and knowledge. In fact I'm having trouble locating the first reference to the two expunged chapters, as the original Space Marine rulebook doesn't mention them, nor does the Rogue Trader Compilation (except to say that only 7 of the original 20 remain, though it is doubtless including the Heretic Chapters among those).

At the end of the day, there has to be a reason they were expunged, and it must be a sin greater than renouncing the Emperor and joining Chaos. What that is is hard to guess.

[PainRack]

Wasn't the missing legions in canon since 2nd edition though? Or rather, missing chapters.

[The Yosemite Bear]

yes, though there is also fun about chapters that just plain dis appeared and reappear when needed, forces lost in time and space, I'm still waiting to find the world full of non ork red neck kitbashers that the AM exterminatused because the 8 barreled Hefenwerfer Basilisks were too Here-Techial for them.....

[Kojiro]

Yeah I'm sure it does show up there, but I think it was only then they published a list of the first founding. If you look at the old Space Marine rules (a game specifically about the marine vs marine conflict of the Heresy, and where many characters like Loken originate), there are stories/references about all the chapters. I'm not sure that they didn't just look at that stuff and go 'well there's 18 mentioned here... but that's an odd number so we'll say 20 and make two a mystery' with no idea the level of scrutiny the idea would receive 20 years later.

Near as I can tell the Codex Imperialis is the first mention of the expunged chapters. Though it's curious that no one on the Chaos side of the fence has spilled the beans or knows (I would think the traitor primarchs would certainly have an idea). Or that that information isn't worth making public- presumably it's damaging to the Imperium.

[Kojiro]

Wasn't the missing legions in canon since 2nd edition though? Or rather, missing chapters.

Earliest mention I can find of it is in the 2nd Edition Codex Imperialis, which I had an actual reread of. Man, 40k has changed a lot... but that's a whole other rant. The CI states that the records of the two chapters was expunged after the Horus Heresy. That doesn't preclude them being lost/destroyed before the Heresy but it certainly conflicts with the current information. If they were expunged after the Heresy they're presumably still common knowledge before/during it. I assume that this is simply a retcon though, like the Ultramarines chapter number going from 3 to 13 (which some people suggest is why they received the left overs from 2 and 11).

[Broken]

Perhaps knowledge of the 2 lost legions was largely restricted to only some of the Astartes to begin with, taboo amongst them and later forbidden before the Hersey, but after when the Inquisition starts going full swing they start axing entire branches of knowledge out of the collective memory. IIRC, one of the Dark Hersey rpg books mentions the immediate aftermath of the Hersey as a massive cleansing of humankind's society to resist Chaos in the future.

[Azazal]

Personal theory, so please enjoy with plenty of salt.

40K fluff old and new states that all 20 legions were re-united with their Primarchs. Fluff also shows Loyalists as being horrified by Horus and other Primarchs turning traitor, something that was unthinkable. So that rules out one or both legions turning on the Emperor or never being united with their Primarch.

So my theories are:
1.) One of the legions was always under-strength during the Great Crusade, always fighting with a larger legion, much like the Emperor's Children fighting under the wing of the Luna Wolves until they were strong enough to stand on their own. Said unnamed legion once deemed strong enough were sent o their own with their Primarch, but found them in a fight they could not win. Facing overwhelming odds, the Primarch surrendered and earned the eternal shame of the Emperor.
2.) One of the unnamed legions fought fine during the Great Crusade while under the leadership of the Emperor, a diffierent Primarch whose legion they were supporting, or even their own internal marine leadership. Once their Primarch was found, he was given leadership of the legion. Sadly said Primarch was horrible at leadership and or tactics. He wasted his resources and troops in pointless endevours or used tactics that just ground his legion down into worthless meat. Same end result, purged from history.

[Kojiro]

Facing overwhelming odds, the Primarch surrendered and earned the eternal shame of the Emperor.

While surrender would definitely be a mark of shame, I can't see it being worse than turning traitor. And if an expeditionary fleet encountered something that managed to deceive them into thinking it was something they could handle, but couldn't (and killed a primarch), I would imagine the Emperor's wrath would be extreme and well known. During the Great Crusade 'overwhelming force' seems to be the operational standard, with Astartes walking over most resistance. If something smashed a fleet and the entire legion with it, it needs to be dealt with and it needs dealing with now. Even so, that'd hardly be a reason to expunge a legion, just for having the bad fortune to run into something so overwhelmingly powerful.

He wasted his resources and troops in pointless endevours or used tactics that just ground his legion down into worthless meat. Same end result, purged from history.

It's hard to see a primarch doing such a thing given their design, intellect and ability. Such a primarch (or even normal human commander) would be judged incompetent and removed from command. But then if the Emperor can tolerate Angron even that seems dubious.

It just seems odd to purge the records of the chapters but not the existence of them. Claiming only 18 were founded would be much less suspicious, even say 2 of the planned 20 never matured/were found. Anything but 'yes we found them, made a legion, then. mhmrmhm.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Another thought would be imagine a legion going: Sorry dad, but were hear these dark wispers talking to us, and they get worse when we spill blood, we have to stop fighting for a while....

[Kojiro]

It might be as simple as they refused to join a xenocidal dictatorship bent on galactic domination. Back then, perhaps traitors could be just disappeared... but centuries later Horus is just too high profile (to say nothing of the real imminent threat of him) to make go away with an information purge.

[Rogue 9]

I'm a fan of the Blank primarch theory, existence hidden as a trump card against Chaos. I'm working on ways to convincingly represent the Reasonable Marines/Knights Inductor on tabletop with existing rules, and in the meantime represent my Guard army as chapter auxiliaries. Not having Commissars is a handicap, but I can usually manage.

[Kojiro]

I like the idea of a hidden chapter, or ones tasked with some secret duty that would necessitate their removal from general circulation.

The likes of Reasonable Marines/Knights Inductors have no place in 40k. Not because of any fault on their part, they're just so... logical and realistic.