Celebrating 20 Years of DS9

[Havok]

That's the one where she has been dead for like three years right?

[Alyeska]

That's the one where she has been dead for like three years right?

Yeah. The positive impact she had on the crew. Seeing what the crew was dealing with and how they needed that lifeline as much as she needed.

[JME2]

I loved seeing Deep Space 9 go serial; something is almost fatiguing about a bottled universe where by the time the credits have rolled, nothing of importance has happened. (In fact going back to watch TNG almost feels like a waste of time for this exact reason).

Which is why I will never understand why Berman was so hellbent on destroying or torpedoing any sense of continuity or consequences to VOY's stories.

I mean, I know that there was studio pressure to keep the Trek machine going regardless of quality and that we now know Berman was an egotistical asshole. But it's basic storytelling and drama to have characters make a choice or decision and then have to face the consequences. That was why TWOK worked so well, because Kirk leaving Khan on Ceti Alpha VI came back to bite him in the ass and ended up costing him the life of his best friend.

This was, also perhaps the only good thing to come out the Kazon arc. Janeway destroying the Array earned them both the enmity of the Kazon and eventually triggered Seska's defection and all the headaches that came with that for over two years. The execution sucked, but at least Piller (and to an extent Taylor) were making an effort. Once Piller left, though, all bets were off.

The maddening thing about VOY was that the format and premise of the show offered an opportunity that neither TOS or TNG had, to strike a balance between ongoing story arcs and stand-alone episodes. This something that attracted me to SG-1 and SGA as they always did well with this format.

[Havok]

DS9 handled that well as well.

[darth_timon]

Voyager should have given us more depth in terms of how Starfleet officers try to hold to their ideals when thrust so far out of their comfort zones. What do you sacrifice in order to get home?

Imagine the characters of DS9 in Voyager- Would they have been more ruthless perhaps?

[JME2]

Voyager should have given us more depth in terms of how Starfleet officers try to hold to their ideals when thrust so far out of their comfort zones. What do you sacrifice in order to get home?

Imagine the characters of DS9 in Voyager- Would they have been more ruthless perhaps?

If we're going by episodes like "In the Pale Moonlight", then the answer would have been yes.

[Waddles McGee]

I loved seeing Deep Space 9 go serial; something is almost fatiguing about a bottled universe where by the time the credits have rolled, nothing of importance has happened. (In fact going back to watch TNG almost feels like a waste of time for this exact reason).

Which is why I will never understand why Berman was so hellbent on destroying or torpedoing any sense of continuity or consequences to VOY's stories.

I mean, I know that there was studio pressure to keep the Trek machine going regardless of quality and that we now know Berman was an egotistical asshole. But it's basic storytelling and drama to have characters make a choice or decision and then have to face the consequences. That was why TWOK worked so well, because Kirk leaving Khan on Ceti Alpha VI came back to bite him in the ass and ended up costing him the life of his best friend.

Exactly, and for better or worse it's the strength of those consequences that defines the drama. Leaving Khan behind only to have him show up 20 years later with a starship and a bad temper was a terrible what-if come true, for what if the monster of the week learned from his defeat and spent two decades plotting revenge, waiting for the perfect opportunity to steal a ship and kill you? It was a brilliant franchise-saving dice roll on the part of the makers of the Wrath of Khan, something that people didn't mind attempting to replicate (Nemesis... blarg) but few writers in Star Trek drew from.

That's part of the reason Star Trek as we knew it had to die. Even in TNG there was a sense that on some level, actions carried weight; Picard helped define the rights of androids in the Federation in Season 2, a point raised in season 3 when another grubby bureaucrat with an attitude shows up ready to steal Lal and whisk her away to Starfleet. Worf was dishonored for two or three seasons until the Klingon Civil War, which sent the Duras sisters into hiding until their re-emergence during early DS9 and later in Generations as mooks to the main villain, having in the meantime been disgraced and defeated. Gowron becomes leader of the Empire in TNG, and is later deposed when his leadership takes things downhill during the Dominion War. At the end, worf runs off to be an Ambassador.

Then during First Contact, "Ambassador" Worf is seen fighting the borg, in charge of his own Defiant and EVERYTHING! Hey look guys, we watched Deep Space 9, we just didn't give a shit about the way it ended! to be fair the ending kinda sucked

Ironically it was their inability to learn from why Star Trek told good stories that doomed it to tell bad ones accidentally. At the end of the day, it all comes down to characters and their choices.

This was, also perhaps the only good thing to come out the Kazon arc. Janeway destroying the Array earned them both the enmity of the Kazon and eventually triggered Seska's defection and all the headaches that came with that for over two years. The execution sucked, but at least Piller (and to an extent Taylor) were making an effort. Once Piller left, though, all bets were off.

The maddening thing about VOY was that the format and premise of the show offered an opportunity that neither TOS or TNG had, to strike a balance between ongoing story arcs and stand-alone episodes. This something that attracted me to SG-1 and SGA as they always did well with this format.

I didn't really get the sense in Voyager that they were in deep shit, beyond being some 70 years away from the UFP. Again, I haven't watched that much of the show because it didn't really capture my interest. I do have to ask though, do any of the characters become likeable? Torres is a bitch, Janeway's a bitch... the only character I like is Tuvok and he's basically Spock.

O'Brien's suffering was intentional. The writers had decided that once a season O'Brien Must Suffer. And Colm Meaney did an incredible job with the episodes.

Absolutely, and it provided some unintentionally hilarious moments. I laugh a little every time I see O'brien with that big ol' afro and beard in that one episode where he spent 20 years in MINDPRISON.

Well I've got seasons 4-7 on DVD. Currently reaching the end of s7 for the first time since they were on telly on the BBC.

And its really weak ending. I've not even got to the clip show parts of WYLB. Hell the entire season is pretty weak. The two most exciting/entertaining episodes have been the two holodeck episodes and they're much disaparaged for not adding to the arc. Which of course they don't.

I'm surprise that Sloan was only in 3 episodes as well considering the deal fandom makes about Secton 31.

I think Section 31 is easy to love because, if you ignore their appearances outside of Deep Space 9, it's impossible to tell if this is a rogue Federation spy, or an entire agency, or just one dude who's gone off his rocker and decided to take matters into his own hands.

He reminds me of Colonel Flagg, the MASH character.

[DaveJB]

Then during First Contact, "Ambassador" Worf is seen fighting the borg, in charge of his own Defiant and EVERYTHING! Hey look guys, we watched Deep Space 9, we just didn't give a shit about the way it ended! to be fair the ending kinda sucked

First Contact was set during DS9's fifth season, when it made sense for Worf to appear in the way he did. Insurrection on the other hand only gave a token explanation as to why he was there, and Nemesis didn't bother explaining it at all (at least, the finished film didn't; there was an explanation in the script, but again it was a pretty half-assed one).

Which is why I will never understand why Berman was so hellbent on destroying or torpedoing any sense of continuity or consequences to VOY's stories.

From what I gather UPN were the ones insisting on no episode-to-episode continuity (or at least no more than TNG had), though Berman certainly didn't seem to do much to fight them on the matter.

It does kind of illustrate the difference in writing staff on the two shows, though. On DS9 from the third season onwards there was a settled staff of writers who were all familiar with Trek, all respectful of each other, and all working toward the same goal. On Voyager on the other hand you had Berman, who was content to enforce the status quo, Piller, who was starting to go off in some odd New Age directions in his writing (though if "Tuvix" was anything to go by, was the most willing to take chances), Taylor, who seemed disinterested in and even borderline disdainful of the sci-fi genre, and Biller, who just wasn't that great of a writer. Oddly enough, and for all the flack he gets, it seems like Brannon Braga was the one who was most often coming up with good ideas for Voyager, but usually got ignored as a writer, and was probably burned out by the time he became showrunner.

[FaxModem1]

One thing that Voyager had going for it later on in it's later seasons was the hiring of Bryan Fuller. The first episode of Voyager he wrote was, "The Raven", and it shows the new direction Voyager took in its fourth season. There was more focus on the characters, mostly the character of Seven, and the show bounced back a lot because of the arcs they were telling with it.

Consider the next episode that he wrote: "Mortal Coil", while introducing the fact that Seven can basically resurrect anyone on Voyager as long as they're willing to have Seven pumping out nanoprobes, was a well done episode on death and having a crisis of faith, even if it's from the perspective of Neelix.

Of course, I don't think he was ever in major charge of writing decisions, but his work definitely added some quality to the Voyager scripts.

[Metahive]

I find it funny that Khan is brought up as an example of Kirk having to deal with the consequences of his actions since both men parted on amicable terms (well, as amicable as Khan's attempts on Kirk's life allowed) at the end of Space Seed. Ceti Alpha VI spontaneously exploding and turning Ceti Alpha V into an inhospitable wasteland which resulted in Khan's wife's death, the primary motivator for his revenge, isn't actually something that Kirk should have foreseen, is it?

[FaxModem1]

They left on amicapable terms, but Kirk kind of left them on Ceti Alpha V to sink or swim, with not so much as a beacon or probe making a yearly broadcast of what they were up to or for Starfleet to visit them every few years to see how they were faring. I guess it was because they were incapable of leaving the planet that they never did so, but still, it was leaving them behind and never checking up on them that pissed Khan off.

[Metahive]

They left on amicapable terms, but Kirk kind of left them on Ceti Alpha V to sink or swim, with not so much as a beacon or probe making a yearly broadcast of what they were up to or for Starfleet to visit them every few years to see how they were faring. I guess it was because they were incapable of leaving the planet that they never did so, but still, it was leaving them behind and never checking up on them that pissed Khan off.

Why the fuck should Kirk have felt obligated to check on a man who had tried to murder him and steal his ship to start the Eugenic Wars anew?

[FaxModem1]

Why the fuck should Kirk have felt obligated to check on a man who had tried to murder him and steal his ship to start the Eugenic Wars anew?

Aside from it being the decent thing to do with just installing a passive beacon to check up on them annually?

What if a trader or some other kind of civilian ship captain stops by and picked up the Botany Bay crew, if Khan and company fashioned a transmitter or were somehow able to lure a ship there, and hijacked a ship that did not have Starfleet Security on it? You might think that a yearly check might be a good idea, no?

[Batman]

Kirk already let them keep the Botany Bay. He could have dropped them on the planet with nothing more than the clothes on their bodies. Given what he would've been entitled to do to them under Federation law (nevermind what he could've gotten away with if he wanted) I think that was pretty damned gracious.
A 'You really don't want to land on this planet' message buoy in orbit might have been a good idea, but for all we know they did that and it got destroyed along with Ceti Alpha VI.
Besides, Khan isn't that big a threat. He managed to temporarily take over the E-Nil when he was already aboard it mainly thanks to lousy security, and he managed to be a threat to the refit E-Nil thanks to Kirk being a moron. I fail to see why this guy needs monitoring, and I definitely don't see why he warrants caring about. It's a big galaxy and Starfleet only has so many ships. There's people like Trelane and the Organians and Apollo out there. The Klingons. The Romulans. The Tholians, the Gorn, Khan is decidedly small fry by comparison.

[Alyeska]

Just finished "Siege of AR-558" and "Its only a Paper Moon". That made for a very nice arc. Just how bad war could be. Just how hopeless it might be. And then surviving and the guilt and depression survivors feel.

Veterans actually contacted the actor who played Nog and told him his performance in Paper Moon was a perfect portrayal of what veterans go through on trying to get back into their lives.

Nog has been gung ho about war. He grew up on DS9. Surrounded by veterans who have seen a lot of war. Sisko, Worf, Kira, Jadzia, O'Brien, even Garrak and Odo. He has learned from the best. But he has been sheltered from the war. The Defiant saw less action that many ships. He had very little ground combat experience.

Siege of AR-558. He has fought. But now he is with a group of veterans that even Sisko showed respect for. Nog wanted to prove he was capable. And then he gets injured. Loses his leg even. Nog is now scared. The war has become very real.

[Havok]

Nog is one of the best examples of character development on any Star Trek show let alone a lot of TV. I kinda disagree with the "being like humans is better" aspect, but his formidable years were spent around pretty influential and powerful humans so it makes sense in context. It is also more palatable because you have Quark there as a balance saying "Nog you are grossing me out with your Rootbeer love."

[Havok]

As to Khan, he took it as a challenge. The greatest of his life. Even Spock was like, man should we be leaving this guy here to create his own Empire?

[Alyeska]

Nog is one of the best examples of character development on any Star Trek show let alone a lot of TV. I kinda disagree with the "being like humans is better" aspect, but his formidable years were spent around pretty influential and powerful humans so it makes sense in context. It is also more palatable because you have Quark there as a balance saying "Nog you are grossing me out with your Rootbeer love."

Nog and Bashir both had significant growth. Both characters were extremely irritating. Bashir was the least popular main character. And look how much he changed. His episode with the Phage was his turning point.

I liked how they fleshed out Garrak. But he didn't really change. We just learned more about him.

Damar had pretty good character development, but not quite the same level Nog managed to get.

Back to Nog. You should go check out Chuck's review of AR-558. Quark served a different purpose this time. Quark became the human ideal. Someone who avoided conflict and made peace treaties. Quark was very scared of the veteran soldiers and was concerned about Nogs hero worship of these people.

[JME2]

Nog's injury also brings up memories of RDM's IGN interview and the insane argument between Berman and Behr about how much of his leg Nog should lose.

[Havok]

Nog is one of the best examples of character development on any Star Trek show let alone a lot of TV. I kinda disagree with the "being like humans is better" aspect, but his formidable years were spent around pretty influential and powerful humans so it makes sense in context. It is also more palatable because you have Quark there as a balance saying "Nog you are grossing me out with your Rootbeer love."

Nog and Bashir both had significant growth. Both characters were extremely irritating. Bashir was the least popular main character. And look how much he changed. His episode with the Phage was his turning point.

I liked Bashir from the get go. His "frontier medicine" always struck me in a good way. I also think you mean the "Blight", the phage was something from Voyager, but I agree, that was an excellent point in his progress and it bookended nicely with Hippocratic Oath when he tries to cure the Jem'Hadar of their genetic addiction/need of Ketrecel White. His last and best development IMO was coming to terms with his own genetic heritage.

I liked how they fleshed out Garrak. But he didn't really change. We just learned more about him.

I think the Rootbeer got Garek a little too, but yes, for the most part, he didn't change much. His exploration was magnificent though and I can watch his episodes endlessly. His relationship with Tane and Odo are some of the shows highlights to me.

Damar had pretty good character development, but not quite the same level Nog managed to get.

Damar got the broad strokes version. It wasn't quite beat you over the head, but his reasons for doing what he did were pretty transparent and well shown in the show. It was really just up to him to make the decisions that had to be made. Killing Dukat's daughter was the first step in that direction.

Back to Nog. You should go check out Chuck's review of AR-558. Quark served a different purpose this time. Quark became the human ideal. Someone who avoided conflict and made peace treaties. Quark was very scared of the veteran soldiers and was concerned about Nogs hero worship of these people.

I kinda pride myself on not having to have other people breakdown and explain themes of Star Trek episodes for me. Quark's reaction in that episode actually seemed a tad out of place for me, but for what they were doing for the episode and for Nog, they needed it. Quark had no problem with Nog wanting to be an arms dealer where death and imprisonment were facts of life, but for some reason he had issues with him wanting to be a soldier where the same holds true. One could make the argument that being a soldier is more unfamiliar to Quark and Ferengi in general, but I don't think that is true.

[Alyeska]

Other tidbits from DS9. According to Memory Alpha, the actor who played Rom was an actual baseball player. He was good enough he couldn't fake a bad player reasonably. So they switched him to left handed. Suddenly it felt like Rom again.

[Alyeska]

Nog's injury also brings up memories of RDM's IGN interview and the insane argument between Berman and Behr about how much of his leg Nog should lose.

Berman didn't like the Dominion War at all. At first he authorized a 2 episode war. Then allowed it to run for 4 episodes. The writers said "Sure, we can wrap up the war in 4 episodes" and then ran with it knowing Berman couldn't stop them by this point.

I think the original six episode arc in season 6 ending with the taking of DS9 was fleshed from the original restrictions. The way the structure came out, they could have easily ended the war with the victory at DS9. But by this point the writers knew they could keep the war going and explore all the themes they had wanted to.

And as a result we have had some of the most contraversial episodes in Trek. Not because they were stupid. But because they challenged peoples preconceptions about what Trek is.

Section 31 plots
Siege of AR-558
By the Pale Moonlight
Waltz
Its only a Paper Moon
Rocks and Shoals

Each episode challenged the perfect paradise view of the Federation. Pre Dominion War episodes involving the Maquis further drove these themes home. Even Homefront and Paradise Lost.

And Berman hated it all.

[JME2]

There's an excerpt from that RDM interview that's always stood out to me:

And then as the war went on, Rick would weigh in periodically about how heroic the characters are and "Why does this one have to be so depressing" and "This one's too violent…." And we're like, "It's a f***in' war! What do you mean it's too violent?"

Yes, Rick. It's a f****n war. Of course it's going to be violent.

I've always thought that quote offered a key insight into Berman's psychology and how stuck he was in the realm of 'safe' storytelling. And if he thought that way about the Dominion War, then it becomes obvious in retrospect that VOY, with its promise of a crew desperately fighting to get home against overwhelming odds, never stood a chance.

[Alyeska]

And I finally finished DS9 via the Amazon Prime Video. Skipped a handful of horrid episodes.

When "What you leave behind" first aired, I thought it was OK. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't good. Part of the problem was they re-used so much combat footage for the final battle against the Dominion. But on rewatching the finale, I have gained a much greater appreciation for it.

The writers made a point of spending the last 9 episodes to finish the arc to DS9. So it wouldn't have to wrap up in a hurry. Establish elements, give time to flesh it out, start to conclude stories and merge elements together for the final confrontations. The Gul Dukat story arc was the weaker side, but was handled well on the Sisko element with the warnings from the Prophets and his reactions to the warnings. The war itself was reasonably concluded. They established credible threats, shifted and reshifted the tide of the war and created a credible point to which the final offensive could be made. In this we get extensive use of Damar and Garrak as characters with the smart use of Kira as their aid.

I think the final battle of the Dominion War was handled reasonably well. It seemed to end quick, but that is readily seen through time jumps. It takes time, and we saw important highlights of the battle. The revolution of the Cardasian people against the Dominion was also handled well.

Then we have the final elements back at the station. The party. Sisko makes the last sacrifice as the Emissary. Most importantly, Sisko says goodbye to Kassidy. We get small montages and a chance to see everyone say goodbye (No Jadzia, booo!). And then to end the series with Jake looking out the window as they zoom out. Life continues.

I have a much greater appreciation for the DS9 ending now. Its not the same type of story that "All Good Things" turned out to be, but it concluded a story quite well.

[Metahive]

The "decent" thing to do would have been to fling that murderous Augment Hitler Khan and his own personal Schutzstaffel out into space without a space suit. Letting them live on a harsh but hospitable planet was more than that piece of shit deserved.