Who CAN the Federation Ground Troops beat?

[John]

I've seen pictures of a neanderthal skeleton (a real neanderthal, not just a Texan ) showing sharp-object damage indicative of being stabbed in the back.

Out of idle curiosity, can you say when and where the subject was discovered, along with any info on the age of the remains?

[Darth Yoshi]

C'mon guys Paleolithic warriors?!?!? I'll have you know that over at Section31 the Trekkies say that Imperial stromtroopers would be easily overwhelmed by "thousands of battle hardened crack Federation marines."

Like those marines exist. I've never seen Fed marines. Plus, how do they get thousands?

[Master of Ossus]

And that's at Section 31. Remember, though, to consider the source when you get ridiculous claims like that. Stormtroopers are highly disciplined, trained, and very well equipped. Starfleet has no comparable forces, and its weapons and armor are inferior.

The oldest known remains with a spear/stab wound in it (that I have heard about) is more than 30,000 years old and was found in Israel. There are probably even older ones, but I have not heard about them.

Incidentally, it was only recently discovered that Otzi (the iceman from the Italian/Austrian border) was murdered. He never recovered from his injuries, and very little is known about the circumstances surrounding his death because of the age of the find and the small amount of evidence that was recovered.

[TheDarkling]

What do we really know about Fed ground troops, we have never seen them in a full on invasion where they would show all their power (if they have any).

[Master of Ossus]

What do we really know about Fed ground troops, we have never seen them in a full on invasion where they would show all their power (if they have any).

We saw the one guy that died, but your point is well taken. I was assuming that their capabilities were roughly analogous to those we have seen other SF officers use on the ground.

[TheDarkling]

Well we know that Klingons have assault vehicles of some kind and we also have reference to the Cardies having Mech Inf and since the Feds fought a ground war against the Cardies (Twice, Fed-Cardy war and the FKR-Dominion war), it would seem that the feds must have some anti-armor weapons if not Mech Inf of their own.

[Master of Ossus]

Well we know that Klingons have assault vehicles of some kind and we also have reference to the Cardies having Mech Inf and since the Feds fought a ground war against the Cardies (Twice, Fed-Cardy war and the FKR-Dominion war), it would seem that the feds must have some anti-armor weapons if not Mech Inf of their own.

In spite of the fact that Riker and Picard complained about even doing exercises regarding basic tactics? In spite of the fact that the Federation has never shown anything remotely like what you are saying? In spite of the fact that Worf's little bazooka did extraordinarily little damage, you still hold the belief that the Federation has Mechanized Infantry? And the Klingons are always the ones who actually attack ground targets.

[TheDarkling]

I dont think that the crew of starships fight in ground wars, my point was we havent seen the other side using these devices so we have never seen a fullscale war.

You claim the Feds have nothing that can defend against Mech Inf yet they were involved in a ground war against the Cardies who do have Mech Inf.

[Master of Ossus]

I dont think that the crew of starships fight in ground wars, my point was we havent seen the other side using these devices so we have never seen a fullscale war.

You claim the Feds have nothing that can defend against Mech Inf yet they were involved in a ground war against the Cardies who do have Mech Inf.

When were they involving themselves in a ground war with the Cardassians? Most of the time the Klingons did the rough stuff for them.

[TheDarkling]

Im talking about the United Federation of Planets Vs The Cardassian Union.

They had a war before the FKR Vs Dominion war.

We know that O'Brien was involved in this war on he ground, we also have reference to Janeway being involved on the ground during this war.

[Master of Ossus]

Im talking about the United Federation of Planets Vs The Cardassian Union.

They had a war before the FKR Vs Dominion war.

We know that O'Brien was involved in this war on he ground, we also have reference to Janeway being involved on the ground during this war.

So, you start this debate by talking about how starship officers do not serve on the ground during conflicts, and now you give me two examples of starship officers who did serve on the ground during conflicts? You are making my case for me, Darkling, thank you.

BTW, the Cardassians are hardly a power in the AQ. The MAQUIS had them on the ropes, and they were just a rebel group from SF! A splinter of SF's actual force. You are correct, though, it would be unusual for a group who is vastly outgunned on the ground to start a war on the ground.

[TheDarkling]

Well O'Brien was protecting a colony thus it may have just been a holding action until the heavy hiters arrived.

Janeway was on an away team and thus not part of a major ground war.

My point is he Cardies were invading on the ground and since they used Mech Inf to take control of Bajor it would seem likely that they would use it against th Federation.

As for the Cardassians not being a major power - where did you get that from?

Check your ST history - the Cardies werent engaged fullscale against the Marquis for some time, they were arming their colonists thats all.

By the time the Marquis became a threat it was only because the colonists had been over run and the mainstay of the Cardassian fleet was fighting the Klingons.

[Mr Bean]

Simple Darkling they do what the've normaly been show to do

Orbital Bombardment

The realy are comepletly lacking any and all heavy weaponry, Not since TOS and Kirks Morter have they had any artillery
Not since Worfs gernade launcher have they had any exposive weaponry(Well besides the warp-core )


Federation power rests in space, They don't have a Navy, Nor does it seem they have a dedcated Army, Or Airforce for that matter

They simply have and are
Starfleet.

[Darth Wong]

Well we know that Klingons have assault vehicles of some kind and we also have reference to the Cardies having Mech Inf

Based in dialogue only, and with no indication as to effectiveness. For all we know, the Klingons' idea of an "assault vehicle" is nothing but a dune buggy with a rifle bolted on the back, much like the Federation's idea of a military ground vehicle (see ST:X).

And Cardie mech infantry? You'll have to do better than a vague reference. Mechanized units can mean anything from a man in a jeep to a powered battlesuit. Obviously, you would prefer the latter explanation, but there isn't a shred of evidence for that, and you know it.

[Darth Wong]

What do we really know about Fed ground troops, we have never seen them in a full on invasion where they would show all their power (if they have any).

They have never conducted a full-on invasion. There is no record anywhere of a Federation full-scale land invasion anywhere, for any reason. The only time they had a need for one (Chin'toka), they had to ask their screaming-idiot Klingon friends to do it for them (you know, the pathetic morons who drop their guns and charge screaming into melee range with bat'leths, and who would get annihilated by a Roman legion).

I don't see why you should assume that the Federation should magically have proficiency in something that, as far as we know, they have never done. Their complete lack of useful ground forces (and the fact that ground troops answer to Starfleet instead of a dedicated branch of their armed forces; see AR-558) is clearly indicative of a military organization which has simply ignored the entire question of ground combat. The fact that their capital world Earth has no standing army, and could only respond to a crisis by beaming down troops from an orbiting ship (see "Paradise Lost") is proof of that.

[Typhonis 1]

What everybody seems to be forgetting is this that yes you can bombard em from orbit ,blow em to the stone age with an Air Force BDZ the place or ven blow said planet to the four winds with a DS however to trully claim it as yours you need ground troops to go in and clean it out .Not once have we seen visual evidence on screen of StarFleet Marines to do the job .All they have are there uber policemen Starfleeet security .Which is why a true army would eat them alive .Imagine if the Federatuion had to fight the Battle of the Bulge without starships and shuttles.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Fed marines and working ground forces only exist in Starfleet Battles expansion rules.

[Master of Ossus]

Stormtroopers are excellent for taking control of planets. Federation MP's clearly are not.

[Isolder74]

Stormtroopers are excellent for taking control of planets. Federation MP's clearly are not.

And Stormtroopers have the benefit of being totally loyal as a function of their training.

PS Stormtroopers are CONSRIPTS not clones. just because the armor is similar does not make the man inside the same!

[Darth Gojira]

The Fed's couldn't beat Roman Legions? Hah! Given the Federation's tactics I'd say paleolithic tribesmen could beat them with stone axes.

may be too true

Surprisingly, there is evidence of paleolithic warfare, and training for warfare. There are cave paintings of archers preparing flanking maneuvers while being protected by other people carrying spears. There are also some pictures of people throwing spears at one another, and even a skeleton that was clearly and intentionally stabbed with a spear. Paleolithic people were no stupider than people today, they just did not have all of our knowledge to draw on. In actuality, they used reasonably developed tactics and were not fools on the matters of warfare.

Hey! That sounds like Feds to me!!!!!

[jegs2]

I'm fairly certain that Fed ground troops would put up a respectable fight against those Rebels we saw stormtroopers waxing in the opening scene of ANH.

[SirNitram]

I'm fairly certain that Fed ground troops would put up a respectable fight against those Rebels we saw stormtroopers waxing in the opening scene of ANH.

Allow me to note what the Federation Ground Troops lack that the Stormtroopers had:

Powerful weaponry(No Phaser ever knocked a chunk out of a wall or killed from a near miss).

Armour.

Discipline.

[TheDarkling]

What the hell is this? who resurrected this long dead thread? jegs2 and no facts either just a statement, sigh oh well time for sleep I guess.

Night og the living dead thread - its funny because it rhymes oh never mind.

[The Yosemite Bear]

A plastic army of minitures. although my friends that do Civil war reenactments might be beatable by the federation, however the time it would take for them to load some real ammo into their weapons would be a crucial factor. They could not hope to win against my SCA frineds who are armed with swords.

[jegs2]

The Fed marines could overwhelm a small SW-based opposing force so long as they used the principle of mass, much as the Chinese soldiers during the Korean War did against UN forces (also called the "human wave") -- similar to what the Soviets did against German forces in WW2. A better than three-to-one advantage would be necessary, and given the offset abilities of weapon systems, that advantage would likely require at least five-to-one (current SOSE operations conventionally call for a nine-to-one advantage).

That would require a significant advantage in numbers of troops and the will of those troops to sacrifice themselves for a cause, heedless of casualties. An interesting example was when Turkish soldiers would wrap themselves completely in leather in order to charge machine guns and deliver a grenade. the leather wrappings served only to maintain integrity of the soldier's body, while machine gun bullets ripped into his organs, just long enough for him to reach his objective.

Additionally, if the marines could achieve total tactical surprise, they could engage an opposing force before they were prepared for combat.