New York Legislature screws up language, bans all guns

[Aaron MkII]

Depends how its written right? Our laws are all based on the magazine, so I could have six or eleven in my semi auto rifle (11 is only legal because LAR mags count as a pistol mag). If they said something like "its illegal to have more then x rounds in the firearm" (not mag) then yeah, your screwed.

Enforcement is going to be interesting. We essentially don't enforce them, the cops have better things to do then check mags at a traffic stop. But then, most of ours are totally ignorant on our firearms laws. *shrug* Have fun.

[TOSDOC]

I was speaking with my father-in-law on this, who is retired corrections in NY, so we are both affected. He said we keep everything, just have to go down to a PD and fill out a registration form proving that we bought the 7+ mag before the law was signed into effect. Then we promise not to load more than 7. But we have a year to do so--the wording of the law at present is such that it still needs a little work, not considering challenges and such.

I get the feeling the enforcement you might see at a range would be from alert owners and patrons listening for more than 7 shots fired at once. An owner might face severe penalties for spotting such a person and not kicking them out. But would a traffic cop have probable cause to check a motorist's weapon for more than 7 rounds if he stops them for speeding and finds they have a CCW?

[weemadando]

I don't see why it wouldn't be a standard check to be carried out if someone is found to be carrying while stopped by the police. After all, they've accepted the responsibilities that go with the right...

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

The argument that spree killers will simply bring high-capacity mags only tells part of the story. Granted, the day after the law goes into effect, any random psychopath can probably get his hands on a 17-round mag, but what about 10 or 20 years down the road? Magazines wear out over time, and eventually most of the mags in circulation will be of the low-cap variety, which means most spree killers won't have the resources or connections to acquire a hi-cap one, and will have to reload more often and bring fewer rounds to the massacre, thus reducing the body count. The fact that pre-ban and law enforcement hi-cap mags will still exist does not change this equation, nor does the fact that it won't have a large effect on the difficulty of obtaining a hi-cap mag until a number of years have passed.

[Stark]

As people have said, its arguable if it would make any difference at all (especially since very large magazines are often unreliable, which might actually save lives) and that regular old magazines are the sort of thing that could be manufactured at the cottage industry level.

Its possible laws like this are motivated by the ease of passing them (compared to other gun control legislation) rather than their efficacy at the stated aim of reducing gun violence.

[Aaron MkII]

The argument that spree killers will simply bring high-capacity mags only tells part of the story. Granted, the day after the law goes into effect, any random psychopath can probably get his hands on a 17-round mag, but what about 10 or 20 years down the road? Magazines wear out over time, and eventually most of the mags in circulation will be of the low-cap variety, which means most spree killers won't have the resources or connections to acquire a hi-cap one, and will have to reload more often and bring fewer rounds to the massacre, thus reducing the body count. The fact that pre-ban and law enforcement hi-cap mags will still exist does not change this equation, nor does the fact that it won't have a large effect on the difficulty of obtaining a hi-cap mag until a number of years have passed.

10-20? Man, I have some here that are brand new, that I expect my grandchildren will have. It's a metal box with a spring, a light coat of oil to keep rust off and if you don't beat the shit out of it, it will easily out live me.

My glock mag, I expect to be around forever (essentially).

Its one of the reasons why gun owners oppose this stuff, other then it's an attempt to do something, anything. In general guns are very simple, rugged devices. If you wait for things to wear out...you'll still be at this spot in a hundred years.

[Mr Bean]

The argument that spree killers will simply bring high-capacity mags only tells part of the story. Granted, the day after the law goes into effect, any random psychopath can probably get his hands on a 17-round mag, but what about 10 or 20 years down the road? Magazines wear out over time, and eventually most of the mags in circulation will be of the low-cap variety, which means most spree killers won't have the resources or connections to acquire a hi-cap one, and will have to reload more often and bring fewer rounds to the massacre, thus reducing the body count. The fact that pre-ban and law enforcement hi-cap mags will still exist does not change this equation, nor does the fact that it won't have a large effect on the difficulty of obtaining a hi-cap mag until a number of years have passed.

10-20? Man, I have some here that are brand new, that I expect my grandchildren will have. It's a metal box with a spring, a light coat of oil to keep rust off and if you don't beat the shit out of it, it will easily out live me.

It does not even have to be metal, in fact one of the demonstrations of 3D printing recently was an 30 round AR-15 magazine, it's a metal box with a spring, you might have to replace the spring in 50 years but it's not complicated. The dimensions of guns are published online, anything that has a spring and fits the end of a gun will work. You can literally make an extended magazine out of two milk cartons layered together if you wished.

One box, one spring, carve to match the gun of choice. Magazine made.
It's drums and banana clips where things get complicated but even then only drum mags require a few power tools.

[Aaron MkII]

Yeah I saw that one. And I'm pretty sure the Glock mag I have here is made out of some funky polymer/plastic.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

I understand that a properly cared-for magazine can last much longer than 10-20 years, but most people simply do not have the tools and knowhow to manufacture a box mag that will clip into an existing pistol, stay in, and feed reliably, even if it is just a box with a spring. Since most of the existing hi-cap mag owners would not be willing to sell or lend to a stranger, this would make it considerably more difficult and expensive to acquire hi-cap mags than it is today, particularly in the quantity a mass-murderer would desire. A restriction does not have to approach 100% effectiveness to be a good idea.

[Aaron MkII]

I'm not arguing that, or anything really. Just pointing out that it will take longer then you initially said.

[Alyeska]

I don't see why it wouldn't be a standard check to be carried out if someone is found to be carrying while stopped by the police. After all, they've accepted the responsibilities that go with the right...

Probable cause. Having a CCW doesn't automatically grant police the right to search you.

[Alyeska]

There's nothing wrong with a very low magazine limit like 5 rounds for detachable magazines. Having the same limit for fixed magazines is ridiculous, since you can't pop out an empty magazine and pop in a new one, you have to load each bullet one at a time. So I don't see why they needed to fix the limit at 7 rounds for both. I'm fine with severe limits on detachable magazines.

Don't be so sure.

Loading an SKS
Loading a M1 Garand

With a little practice you can reload those guns in only a few seconds.

Internal magazine capacity semi autos in the 20 round range are going to become quite popular in New York very soon.

So I'm in the position of opposing the New York law as it applies to en bloc clips and fixed magazines, but also oppose your effort to defend 20-round magazines, because there's no way a workaround for the balance couldn't be had, and a really small limit for detachable magazines will genuinely help. If you want to fire off a lot of ammo without reloading, get one of those Red Star 20 fixed mags for your SKS and then reload the thing with stripper clips. We're all adults here and detachable magazine restrictions, even sub-10 round ones, are very reasonable compromises.

*sigh*

You are arguing that a 5 round magazine will save lives. You say that internal magazines take forever to load. Then you suddenly remember the SKS and M1 Garand and even advocate continued use of these guns. Doesn't the SKS and M1 Garand invalidate the whole hi-cap ban on rifles in the first place? A spree shooter can do a lot of damage with an SKS.

[weemadando]

I don't see why it wouldn't be a standard check to be carried out if someone is found to be carrying while stopped by the police. After all, they've accepted the responsibilities that go with the right...

Probable cause. Having a CCW doesn't automatically grant police the right to search you.

No, but why wouldn't they be allowed to check you were within the legal restrictions of your CCW permit?

Kinda like how having a car means that you are legally obligated to keep it maintained in line with certain standards and the police can check this at any point.

[Alyeska]

I don't see why it wouldn't be a standard check to be carried out if someone is found to be carrying while stopped by the police. After all, they've accepted the responsibilities that go with the right...

Probable cause. Having a CCW doesn't automatically grant police the right to search you.

No, but why wouldn't they be allowed to check you were within the legal restrictions of your CCW permit?

Kinda like how having a car means that you are legally obligated to keep it maintained in line with certain standards and the police can check this at any point.

A cop doesn't pop the hood and make sure you got it tuned up last week.

They need probable cause to search you. Checking the gun is searching you.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Loading stripper clips still takes longer, and for those 20-round Red Star Mags on the SKS, stoking the mag with the second 10-round stripper clip is a total bitch and a half. Generally people who have actually shot them regard it as "a 10 round magazine with a head start". The Garand is also notorious for chewing thumbs when trying to stoke the mag with a new clip when you're not taking care and are in a great deal of hurry. It's still a quite different and noticeably slower process;

I'd suggest 5 rounds for detachable rifle magazines; 8 rounds for pistol magazines, auto-reloaders for revolvers, and rifle en bloc clips; and 10 rounds for stripper clips; fixed magazines unlimited or else 20 rounds. I'd be willing to compromise with gun control advocates on also having 5 round detachable mags for pistols, as long as the other limits were as above.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

And of course, it wouldn't be a ban on magazines, belts, drums and clips with higher capacity, but rather that they'd have to be Class III registered like a Silencer is today (this would remove the circulation issue).

[Alyeska]

The Garand is also notorious for chewing thumbs when trying to stoke the mag with a new clip when you're not taking care and are in a great deal of hurry.

Have you loaded an M1 Garand? I keep hearing stories about getting the thumb slammed by the bolt. But I have never had a problem loading mine. Honestly sounds like a training issue.

It's still a quite different and noticeably slower process

I would argue that the M1 Garand loads more quickly than the M14. At least from my experience. Some enblocs or stripper clips load quickly. Some external magazines load more slowly.

[Alyeska]

And of course, it wouldn't be a ban on magazines, belts, drums and clips with higher capacity, but rather that they'd have to be Class III registered like a Silencer is today (this would remove the circulation issue).

The Class 3 restrictions on the silencer always made my shake my head. They don't silence a weapon. They reduce the noise level. Sound level wise, a silenced but still supersonic 9mm is as loud as a Jackhammer.

Class 3 on magazines is an interesting idea. It would reduce circulation, but people who wanted them could still access them.

However, something to consider. Class 3 items may be transferred to Corporations. Then members or employees of the corporation may have legal access to said items.

[weemadando]

A cop doesn't pop the hood and make sure you got it tuned up last week.

They need probable cause to search you. Checking the gun is searching you.

No, but they can perform a roadside safety inspection and check your tires, lights, brakes, seatbelts and other features.

And asking you to relinquish the gun you have a license to carry is searching you now? You have a right to have the gun, which means you have fucking responsibilities to uphold regarding it.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I don't see why it wouldn't be a standard check to be carried out if someone is found to be carrying while stopped by the police. After all, they've accepted the responsibilities that go with the right...

Probable cause. Having a CCW doesn't automatically grant police the right to search you.

Correct. However, depending on the appearance of the weapon it could give the officer reasonable suspicion to inspect your weapon.

Here's an example. In the video below a citizen who has decided to exercise his right to open carry is carrying a semi-automatic MP5. Such a weapon is legal to open carry in the state that this is encounter is taking place. However, the officer is familiar with this type of weapon and knows it has a fully automatic variant which gives him reasonable suspicion to inspect the weapon.



Now if a person is stopped with a handgun and the magazine appears larger or comes in variants that allow for more rounds then then weapon can be inspected.

[Alyeska]

Here's an example. In the video below a citizen who has decided to exercise his right to open carry is carrying a semi-automatic MP5. Such a weapon is legal to open carry in the state that this is encounter is taking place. However, the officer is familiar with this type of weapon and knows it has a fully automatic variant which gives him reasonable suspicion to inspect the weapon.

Is open carry of fully automatic weapons illegal in this state?

Now if a person is stopped with a handgun and the magazine appears larger or comes in variants that allow for more rounds then then weapon can be inspected.

In the example previously given, that would be a blanket suspicion in the case of 99% of semi automatic handguns. Since the discussion was going for 5 round magazines.

[weemadando]

I don't see how police seeing someone with a weapon and pulling over to make sure they are licensed to carry and aren't fucking crazy is a bad idea.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Is open carry of fully automatic weapons illegal in this state?

I'm not sure. It sounded like you could if you had the proper documentation.

In the example previously given, that would be a blanket suspicion in the case of 99% of semi automatic handguns. Since the discussion was going for 5 round magazines.

Haha five rounds is ridiculously tiny for a standard handgun. I was thinking ten round.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I don't see how police seeing someone with a weapon and pulling over to make sure they are licensed to carry and aren't fucking crazy is a bad idea.

Well, it is a good idea. However, good ideas don't trump civil rights in the eyes of the court. At least that's the idea. In Utah it is legal to open carry but you can't have a round chambered. Just because you are openly carrying a pistol doesn't mean that I can inspect it to ensure that you don't have a round chambered. I can come and talk to you but I can't detain you.

[weemadando]

That makes no fucking sense.

1) You can carry in public with a license.
2) But you mustn't have a round chambered.

So, how is it not allowable for an officer to confirm that you are complying with the restrictions that apply to you carrying said weapon?

Again, it's the vehicle principle, an officer can confirm that you are licensed, your vehicle is registered and make basic checks as to it's legitimacy and safe function.

Why not for a goddamn gun?

Or is this just more nonsensical "INTRUDES ONTO MY GOD GIVEN BILL OF RIGHTS!" craziness?