"What Ifs," And Related Stuff

[Darth Mencken]

As with many franchises, there have been a number of fanfics, and even more "official" publications, that speculate what would have been the result if just one thing had happened differently (a key character making a slightly different choice that they could PLAUSIBLY have made at the time) in the Original Trilogy.

I believe a couple years ago, there was the "Star Wars: Infinities" series (or something like), which postulated just that, a single example for each installment of the 1st Trilogy.

Among other things, the Rebels fail to destroy the 1st Death Star, and later Yoda takes control of it (taking telepathic control of Tarkin in the process), and purposely crashes the 100-mile-diameter battlestation on Coruscant/Imperial Center (All the innocent civilians managed to evacuate the planet just in time, the story tells us - Seriously!).

I was - less than moved by many of the premises in the "Infinities" series (which also included Han spontaneously developing Force Sense, and helping find Yoda on Dagobah), so ended-up putting my money toward Smirnoff Ice and Taco Bell!

Anyway, two (I think more plausible) "What Ifs" I'd like to see explored, in fanfics (preferably halfway-decently-written ones), and otherwise:

1) What if, in "Empire Strikes Back," Luke had listened to Yoda, and stayed and finished his Jedi training, rather than running-off to save Han and Leia (and wound-up needing to be saved himself BY Leia and Lando)?

2) What if, in "Revenge Of The Sith," Anakin's IQ wasn't so selectively reduced during the opera house scene, and having him question how Palpatine knew so much about the Dark Side and the Sith, and why the then-Chancellor chose to steer the conversation in that direction.

In the first case, everything would've remained the same for Han and Leia, and Cloud City in general, up to the point where Luke arrived in the original. Han would still have been frozen presumably. Leia and Lando would still have gotten away w/o Luke's help, and wouldn't have needed to come back to rescue the now-one-handed Luke. But . . . R2D2, who was with Luke the whole time remember, wouldn't have been there to fix the Millennium Falcon's hyperdrive, allowing whichever heroes were there to ultimately escape. Only thing is, Vader was only interested in Leia and Han as bait to draw Luke in. If that hadn't worked, Vader MIGHT not have cared if they escaped (tho probably would've ordered the Falcon destroyed for the hell of it).

Meanwhile, Luke would presumably have progressed as far with his Jedi training as possible with Yoda on Dagobah, and would (presumably) have been told the truth about Vader. Luke would at least have been more capable when he did ultimately face Vader. Han would still be frozen in carbonite waiting to be rescued, and it's anyone's guess what would've happened to Leia and Lando.

As for the 2nd scenario, Anakin plays it cool with the Chancellor, and shortly after reports to the Jedi council, "I just had the STRANGEST conversation with the Chancellor. Seems he knows QUITE A BIT about the Sith, and the Dark Side of the Force! More than can be accounted for even considering he's the head-of-state, with access to all the intelligence resources presumed thereby!"

End of movie, possibly. Still, if one must selectively reduce the IQ of a key character (tho admittedly, Anakin was never the sharpest knife in the drawer to begin with), to make a scene/story/movie/plot work . . .

Still, anyone know of any fanfics, or other publications, that deal specifically with these two points (Luke listening to Yoda; Anakin having a clue in the opera house scene, specifically)? Love to know how these supposedly played-out.

In the 1st case, I think it's key that R2, who was with Luke on Dagobah, winds-up on Cloud City, and fixes the Falcon's hyperdrive, allowing the heroes (whichever ones are present), to escape. Otherwise, there's little question it would've been better if Luke had listened to Yoda!

[Sidewinder]

The best "What if...?" fanfic I've read, is Darth Fanboy's Scars of Mustafar, in which Anakin defeats Obi-Wan during their duel. Considerable effort was put in detailing Anakin's relationships with various characters, particularly his "Master," Sidious.

Other "What if...?" ideas I have (and have yet to put in writing), include:

1) Dooku kills Palpatine aboard the Invisible Hand, before Anakin and Obi-Wan could rescue the Supreme Chancellor. Anakin, having lost a father figure (a role Sidious carefully cultivated for himself), is further devastated when Palpatine's will names him heir to the Supreme Chancellor's fortune- not because of Sidious' charity, but because his newfound (and unwanted) wealth makes the rest of the Jedi Order suspicious of him. After leaving the Order, Anakin finds and begins studying Sith holocrons he inherited- part of Sidious' contingency plans- and founds a rival Order to make the Jedi regret the way they treated him.

2) Luke Skywalker runs away from (Owen Lars') home to join the Imperial Academy, where his piloting skills earn him a posting aboard the Death Star. He (unknowingly) blows away Biggs Darklighter's X-wing during the Rebel attack, attracting Vader's attention. After discovering Luke's identity, Vader states, "I knew your father. He was a Jedi knight, and during the Jedi Rebellion, he alone remained loyal to Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. For this, the Jedi attacked him... betrayed him... destroyed everything he treasured, dooming him to a fate worse than death." Surprised at this, Luke accepts Vader's offer to train him in the ways of the Sith.

[Darth Mencken]

The best "What if...?" fanfic I've read, is Darth Fanboy's Scars of Mustafar, in which Anakin defeats Obi-Wan during their duel. Considerable effort was put in detailing Anakin's relationships with various characters, particularly his "Master," Sidious.

Other "What if...?" ideas I have (and have yet to put in writing), include:

1) Dooku kills Palpatine aboard the Invisible Hand, before Anakin and Obi-Wan could rescue the Supreme Chancellor. Anakin, having lost a father figure (a role Sidious carefully cultivated for himself), is further devastated when Palpatine's will names him heir to the Supreme Chancellor's fortune- not because of Sidious' charity, but because his newfound (and unwanted) wealth makes the rest of the Jedi Order suspicious of him. After leaving the Order, Anakin finds and begins studying Sith holocrons he inherited- part of Sidious' contingency plans- and founds a rival Order to make the Jedi regret the way they treated him.

2) Luke Skywalker runs away from (Owen Lars') home to join the Imperial Academy, where his piloting skills earn him a posting aboard the Death Star. He (unknowingly) blows away Biggs Darklighter's X-wing during the Rebel attack, attracting Vader's attention. After discovering Luke's identity, Vader states, "I knew your father. He was a Jedi knight, and during the Jedi Rebellion, he alone remained loyal to Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. For this, the Jedi attacked him... betrayed him... destroyed everything he treasured, dooming him to a fate worse than death." Surprised at this, Luke accepts Vader's offer to train him in the ways of the Sith.

For the 1st. Why would Dooku kill Palpatine? Dooku was in on the whole "staged war to make it easier to take over the Republic" ploy, and was only pretending to be Palpatine's opposite. Plus, where Palpatine was concerned, Dooku wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer! He was genuinely surprised when Palpatine told Anakin, "Kill him, kill him now!" Plus, Palpatine having a will is a totally new assumption. And Anakin being "devastated" by being named Palpatine's heir (He'd be devastated by Palpatine's death, certainly, but why by being named heir, or by not really needing the Jedi anymore, whom he didn't exactly see eye-to-eye with even before) doesn't seem to make sense. Palpatine dying would surely throw the Republic into utter chaos besides. Tho Anakin would surely be enraged at Dooku, and knowing him would probably fall to the Dark Side in his rage over losing his father figure. He might thus end-up being Dooku's Sith apprentice (with or without the aid of further revelations from Dooku to steer him down this path). It COULD work (with or without Palpatine being revealed as having a will naming Anakin his heir). But need for Dooku to suddenly come up with a good reason to kill Palpatine (other than Dooku suddenly being a LOT more perceptive than he's shown in the movie at that point!)!

For the 2nd scenario. Like, whoa! Only real problem is, Luke makes it quite clear in the first movie that he hates the Empire, and specifically wants to join the Rebellion. Two rules that any "What If" scenario should adhere to: 1) Don't radically adjust a key character's IQ (in either direction); And, 2) Don't suddenly invert, or radically adjust, a character's established views or moral code without a truly compelling explanation!

Otherwise, your 2nd "What If" is compelling to say the least

Other rules any "What If" scenario should follow, in addition to the two I already mentioned: 3) Don't have characters suddenly develop or display capabilities than were never mentioned, displayed, or even presumed previously (i.e. Han suddenly having Force Sense in the "Empire Strikes Back" Infinities variation); 4) Don't just throw in any objects or events (Palpatine being revealed to have a will after unexpectedly being killed, young Anakin being hit by a meteor on Tattooine before Qui Gon and Obi Wan find him, etc); And, 5) Don't just have a character choose to do something different for no reason, or for a reason that isn't already established (Luke listening to Yoda and not charging-off half-cocked to save Han and Leia, may be a borderline case admittedly, but Luke is clearly conflicted in that scene in "Empire," and MIGHT possibly have chosen differently). Ideally, a key character simply makes a different choice, with the same information available, and without their IQ, moral code, etc. being drastically altered for the purpose. A scene an existing canonical work (movie or otherwise) where a key character is CLEARLY conflicted about what they should do, is the point where a convincing "What If' scenario begins.

[Sidewinder]

For the 1st. Why would Dooku kill Palpatine?

Betrayal is in the nature of the Sith. I can justify it as Dooku believing it was time for him to assume the role of master, and deciding to make Anakin his apprentice.

Plus, Palpatine having a will is a totally new assumption. And Anakin being "devastated" by being named Palpatine's heir (He'd be devastated by Palpatine's death, certainly, but why by being named heir, or by not really needing the Jedi anymore, whom he didn't exactly see eye-to-eye with even before) doesn't seem to make sense.

The will is part of a contingency plan, to ensure the Sith would survive the death of its members. Sidious' plan is to use this wealth to alienate Anakin from the Jedi, who aren't supposed to have possessions; with the Jedi already suspicious of his loyalty (remember Obi-Wan's concern about Palpatine's influence over Anakin, and Mace Windu's comment that he didn't trust Skywalker?), this may be "the straw that breaks the camel's back" by making the other Jedi express these suspicions openly and intensely.

For the 2nd scenario. Like, whoa! Only real problem is, Luke makes it quite clear in the first movie that he hates the Empire, and specifically wants to join the Rebellion.

Luke didn't express outright hatred towards the Empire, until he learned his aunt and uncle were killed. As for joining the Rebellion, he was genuinely surprised when Darklighter confessed he planned to defect. My idea is he runs away from home to join the Academy, before either event occurs.

[lPeregrine]

For the 1st. Why would Dooku kill Palpatine?

We know that the force can let you see the future, so Dooku gets a vision of Palpatine's betrayal and decides it's better to act first, kill Palpatine, and resolve the whole crisis to his own benefit.

For the 2nd scenario. Like, whoa! Only real problem is, Luke makes it quite clear in the first movie that he hates the Empire, and specifically wants to join the Rebellion.

Not really. Before the Empire murders his family all we have is that one "I hate the Empire, but it's all so far from here" line, and that sounds a lot more like general whiny teenage rebelliousness than any serious hatred of the Empire. Just like real-world rebellious teenagers outgrow the "I hate the government! Our president is a nazi!" stage, it's not really hard to imagine that Luke attends the Academy, grows up and gets some discipline, and accepts his place in the Empire.



And, to join the trend I'll add a "what-if" of my own. Remember in the first death star battle when Red Leader tells Luke to let him die and start his own attack without delay? What if that scene goes just a bit differently: Red Leader's self-preservation instincts win, he senses a chance of escape, and follows Luke's advice. Meanwhile Luke, impulsive and inexperienced (see his first strafing run for a good example) abandons his mission to save his fellow pilot. So:

1) Vader is focused on getting the kill in front of him and fails to notice the three x-wings pulling in behind him until it's too late. His wingmen are quickly killed before they even know Luke is there, and with a 3:1 disadvantage Vader's desperate last evasive maneuver fails to save him from death at the hands of his son.

2) Without any remaining fighters to make things difficult the rebel fighters have no trouble destroying the death star, but the delay gives it enough time to destroy the rebel base.

So, Vader is dead, the Empire's superweapon is destroyed, but the rebel leadership have just become martyrs for their cause. What now? Or, to make things even more interesting, let's say that Red Leader takes the second shot and destroys the death star, and Luke is, like Wedge, a good pilot and minor hero, but not the great hero of the rebellion he becomes in the original story.

[Darth Mencken]

For the 1st. Why would Dooku kill Palpatine?

Betrayal is in the nature of the Sith. I can justify it as Dooku believing it was time for him to assume the role of master, and deciding to make Anakin his apprentice.

Plus, Palpatine having a will is a totally new assumption. And Anakin being "devastated" by being named Palpatine's heir (He'd be devastated by Palpatine's death, certainly, but why by being named heir, or by not really needing the Jedi anymore, whom he didn't exactly see eye-to-eye with even before) doesn't seem to make sense.

The will is part of a contingency plan, to ensure the Sith would survive the death of its members. Sidious' plan is to use this wealth to alienate Anakin from the Jedi, who aren't supposed to have possessions; with the Jedi already suspicious of his loyalty (remember Obi-Wan's concern about Palpatine's influence over Anakin, and Mace Windu's comment that he didn't trust Skywalker?), this may be "the straw that breaks the camel's back" by making the other Jedi express these suspicions openly and intensely.

For the 2nd scenario. Like, whoa! Only real problem is, Luke makes it quite clear in the first movie that he hates the Empire, and specifically wants to join the Rebellion.

Luke didn't express outright hatred towards the Empire, until he learned his aunt and uncle were killed. As for joining the Rebellion, he was genuinely surprised when Darklighter confessed he planned to defect. My idea is he runs away from home to join the Academy, before either event occurs.

Right about the nature of the Sith. Just Dooku didn't seem all that sharp. Plus, although Darth Maul wasn't with us long, he supposedly had no ambitions to succeed Sidious (admittedly, this would make him less than a "full" Sith, despite the "Darth" title). And of course, once Vader was a Sith, how long was he content to play second fiddle?

As for Luke. In the first movie, BEFORE his aunt and uncle were killed, while talking with Obi Wan, Luke confessed, "It's not that I like the Empire, I HATE IT, but [I can't just leave for Alderaan with you, and leave the drudgery of moisture farming right now]!" Sorry about the paraphrasing toward the end! And tho Luke didn't exactly say it with the strongest conviction, he did say in as many words that he already HATED the Empire even then.

[Batman]

Are we talking about the same Luke who, in the same movie, was pissed his uncle wanted to postpone him going to the Academy? That being the Imperial Academy? Nevermind the entirely possible...possibility (yeah, I know, demerits for abominable english) of that statement just being teenage 'I hate the establishment', it's hardly uncommon even in the real world for someone to say and possibly even think they hate something while at the same time thinking 'Well, it's certainly evil and somebody should try to stop it but I'm a single nobody from the ass-end of nowhere, what can I do?' and just getting on with their lives.

[Darth Mencken]

For the 1st. Why would Dooku kill Palpatine?

We know that the force can let you see the future, so Dooku gets a vision of Palpatine's betrayal and decides it's better to act first, kill Palpatine, and resolve the whole crisis to his own benefit.

For the 2nd scenario. Like, whoa! Only real problem is, Luke makes it quite clear in the first movie that he hates the Empire, and specifically wants to join the Rebellion.

Not really. Before the Empire murders his family all we have is that one "I hate the Empire, but it's all so far from here" line, and that sounds a lot more like general whiny teenage rebelliousness than any serious hatred of the Empire. Just like real-world rebellious teenagers outgrow the "I hate the government! Our president is a nazi!" stage, it's not really hard to imagine that Luke attends the Academy, grows up and gets some discipline, and accepts his place in the Empire.



And, to join the trend I'll add a "what-if" of my own. Remember in the first death star battle when Red Leader tells Luke to let him die and start his own attack without delay? What if that scene goes just a bit differently: Red Leader's self-preservation instincts win, he senses a chance of escape, and follows Luke's advice. Meanwhile Luke, impulsive and inexperienced (see his first strafing run for a good example) abandons his mission to save his fellow pilot. So:

1) Vader is focused on getting the kill in front of him and fails to notice the three x-wings pulling in behind him until it's too late. His wingmen are quickly killed before they even know Luke is there, and with a 3:1 disadvantage Vader's desperate last evasive maneuver fails to save him from death at the hands of his son.

2) Without any remaining fighters to make things difficult the rebel fighters have no trouble destroying the death star, but the delay gives it enough time to destroy the rebel base.

So, Vader is dead, the Empire's superweapon is destroyed, but the rebel leadership have just become martyrs for their cause. What now? Or, to make things even more interesting, let's say that Red Leader takes the second shot and destroys the death star, and Luke is, like Wedge, a good pilot and minor hero, but not the great hero of the rebellion he becomes in the original story.

Erm, PLENTY of instances where the ability to see into the future, seemed strangely disabled in recognized Force users. Most noteworthy, how come NOT ONE OF THOUSANDS OF JEDI foresaw "Order 66" before it was put into effect? If Palpatine's power was so great he could keep ALL the Jedi from foreseeing a betrayal involving millions of Clone Troops, then all the political maneuvering seems superfluous!

As for Luke, well right about him being almost casual saying "I hate the Empire." Still, seems just a little . . . odd for him to go from that, to joining the Imperial Academy, etc. Maybe not TOTALLY implausible, just doesn't seem likely.

As for the last. That's at least 3 separate "What If's" in one! 1) Red Leader decides to at least try to save himself from imminent death (Maybe he succeeds, with or without help, maybe not). 2) Luke decides to help him (Again, maybe he succeeds here, maybe not). 3) Vader gets gang-banged from behind, and dies heroically fighting for Emperor and Empire trying to save the Death Star (YEAH!!!). 4) The Rebels destroy the Death Star all the same, more easily perhaps now that Luke & Co. took-out Vader & Co, but because Luke took the time to save Red Leader (again, successfully or otherwise here), the Death Star MAY have had enough time to destroy the Rebel base this time (It was pretty close in the movie, actually!), a Pyrric victory for each side! Or, 5) Red Leader survives and makes the killing shot, possibly destroying the Death Star before it destroys the Rebel base. He's the big hero, whilst Luke just helped him a little.

Buncha different "What If's" (not all of them mutually incompatible, but could be mixed and matched a number of ways)! I say, pick one (or a combination that works), and go with it

[Darth Mencken]

Are we talking about the same Luke who, in the same movie, was pissed his uncle wanted to postpone him going to the Academy? That being the Imperial Academy? Nevermind the entirely possible...possibility (yeah, I know, demerits for abominable english) of that statement just being teenage 'I hate the establishment', it's hardly uncommon even in the real world for someone to say and possibly even think they hate something while at the same time thinking 'Well, it's certainly evil and somebody should try to stop it but I'm a single nobody from the ass-end of nowhere, what can I do?' and just getting on with their lives.

Just possibly. But he sure seemed more sympathetic to the Rebellion than the Empire from the start. Heck, looks like I gotta dig-out my DVD of "A New Hope"!

[lPeregrine]

Erm, PLENTY of instances where the ability to see into the future, seemed strangely disabled in recognized Force users. Most noteworthy, how come NOT ONE OF THOUSANDS OF JEDI foresaw "Order 66" before it was put into effect? If Palpatine's power was so great he could keep ALL the Jedi from foreseeing a betrayal involving millions of Clone Troops, then all the political maneuvering seems superfluous!

I didn't say "plenty", I just said that it's possible. Luke sees his friends being tortured, the Emperor foresees the rebel attack (including Luke's involvement) and prepares a trap, etc. Obviously it's not so frequent that Dooku's failure to have a vision of his death is surprising, but it's also not so unusual that a "what if" involving such a vision is implausible.

If you want more of a reason you can just look at it as a focus thing. The Jedi didn't see Order 66 coming because they weren't expecting to be betrayed and wouldn't spend time trying to read the future and look for possible hints of one. Dooku, on the other hand, is already part of a conspiracy AND knows that the dark side loves betrayal and selfish manipulations so even if he wasn't already planning to overthrow Palpatine at a convenient time he'd have to be an idiot to fail to even consider that Palpatine wouldn't be loyal to him.

As for Luke, well right about him being almost casual saying "I hate the Empire." Still, seems just a little . . . odd for him to go from that, to joining the Imperial Academy, etc. Maybe not TOTALLY implausible, just doesn't seem likely.

But we know that Luke wanted to go to the Academy. Maybe his most important goal was getting off his dead-end farm life, maybe he did dream of learning how to fight and taking the first opportunity to join the rebellion, but in the end he was eager (obsessed, really) to go and be part of the Empire. His "I hate the Empire" rant sounds a lot more like whiny teenage rebellion by a bored farmer than true passionate hatred and determination to destroy the Empire or die trying.

And really, just look at what Luke did when he had the opportunity to join the rebellion. When Obi-wan tried to recruit him (complete with tales of his heroic father) Luke's response was the equivalent to "yeah, I guess I'll drop you off downtown, you can probably catch a cab to the airport from there". His determination to fight instead of just whining about how much the world sucks didn't appear until the Empire murdered his family, and the premise of the "what if" is before that happens.

[Sidewinder]

5) Red Leader survives and makes the killing shot, possibly destroying the Death Star before it destroys the Rebel base. He's the big hero, whilst Luke just helped him a little.

Impossible. Remember Obi-Wan's spirit advising Luke to "use the Force"? 'Incredible Cross-Sections' notes the X-wing's targeting system suffered from problems that limited its accuracy. Without the Force, there's no way the Rebels could take advantage of the Death Star's infamous Achilles' heel.

[Ahriman238]

The best What If I've read in Star Wars, now lost to the vast internet, was one that starts on Mustafar, where after chopping off Anakin's legs Obi-Wan decides to take him prisoner and basically sits on him the whole flight away until they've talked out their differences and Anakin is tentatively on the side of good again.

Amusingly, instead of dying while saying that Anakin still has good in him, Padme lives and decides she wants a divorce and for him to never, ever come near her children.

Anyway, instead of becoming hermits Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin become very active in organizing the Rebel Alliance and finding/rescuing other Jedi who escaped the initial Purge.


As for some other ideas (though the few Jedi masters not hiding from the universe while the galaxy goes to shit would be a major change in and of itself) how about Padme gets an autopsy that reveals she had given birth, (maybe even that she had twins) and Vader obsessively searches for his heir?

If you want to stick to the OT, Han never jettisons his cargo (that Jabba was bitching at him for) and gets pinched by the Empire, Luke and Obi-Wan charter a different ship to Alderan, perhaps one less reliable or willing to storm the Death Star with them. Leia breaks under torture and gives up the Rebel Base, now she and her rescuers have to build a new rebellion from the ground up, with the last one's failure hanging over their heads. Vader recognizes that Leia's resistance to truth serum springs from powerful, but untrained force potential and tries to turn her to the Dark Side to use against the Emperor, your choice whether or not he succeeds, because even Leia having correspondence course level understanding of her powers could seriously change things.

Han is deep in debt, not to Jabba, but to the more interesting EU villain Prince Xizor (or an original character) who uses that debt and a bit of blackmail to convince Han and Chewie to be his inside man in the Rebellion.

[Batman]

5) Red Leader survives and makes the killing shot, possibly destroying the Death Star before it destroys the Rebel base. He's the big hero, whilst Luke just helped him a little.

Impossible. Remember Obi-Wan's spirit advising Luke to "use the Force"? 'Incredible Cross-Sections' notes the X-wing's targeting system suffered from problems that limited its accuracy. Without the Force, there's no way the Rebels could take advantage of the Death Star's infamous Achilles' heel.

Yet the Rebels thought they could do it without ever knowing about Luke's Force abilities, and even Luke did think he could make the shot.
It may have been a highly improbable one, but that's not the same as impossible.

[aussiemuscle308]

That being the Imperial Academy? ... they hate something while at the same time thinking 'Well, it's certainly evil and somebody should try to stop it but I'm a single nobody from the ass-end of nowhere, what can I do?' and just getting on with their lives.

It has a lot to do with him wanting to get out of a remote, isolated town, and as a lowly farmer, he's likely only going to be accepted into the Imperial Academy. i live in a small village, 90% of the students in my class moved away as soon as high school finished. we all wanted to get out of there asap. (i only moved back because a job opened up).

[lPeregrine]

That being the Imperial Academy? ... they hate something while at the same time thinking 'Well, it's certainly evil and somebody should try to stop it but I'm a single nobody from the ass-end of nowhere, what can I do?' and just getting on with their lives.

It has a lot to do with him wanting to get out of a remote, isolated town, and as a lowly farmer, he's likely only going to be accepted into the Imperial Academy. i live in a small village, 90% of the students in my class moved away as soon as high school finished. we all wanted to get out of there asap. (i only moved back because a job opened up).

Sure, but he was certainly eager to set aside his "hate" for the Empire and join the Academy if it was his way out of a dead-end farming life. Luke, before his family is murdered, is that whiny kid who blogs about how Bush/Obama is a nazi and then goes off to college, gets a real career, and forgets all about that nonsense. If the Empire wasn't around Luke would be saying the same things about the Republic and dreaming of the day he can finally get off Tatooine and go to the Republic Academy.

And, as I said, when Obi-wan tried to recruit Luke to join the rebellion his response was to offer the bare minimum and get back to work, not "awesome, finally I can go and fight the hated Empire!". That is not a sign of real hatred for the Empire.

5) Red Leader survives and makes the killing shot, possibly destroying the Death Star before it destroys the Rebel base. He's the big hero, whilst Luke just helped him a little.

Impossible. Remember Obi-Wan's spirit advising Luke to "use the Force"? 'Incredible Cross-Sections' notes the X-wing's targeting system suffered from problems that limited its accuracy. Without the Force, there's no way the Rebels could take advantage of the Death Star's infamous Achilles' heel.

Yet the Rebels thought they could do it without ever knowing about Luke's Force abilities, and even Luke did think he could make the shot.
It may have been a highly improbable one, but that's not the same as impossible.

Plus there's the TIE fighter threat to consider. Luke needed the force to make the shot under serious time pressure while desperately trying to evade multiple enemy fighters in perfect killing position behind him. Take away the fighters and the rebel pilots have all the time to fly a nice straight approach and give the targeting computer plenty of time to set up a perfect shot. It's reasonable to think that the x-wing's targeting computer was capable of making the shot (otherwise why even make an attempt), but not capable of compensating for less than ideal circumstances.

[Batman]

That being the Imperial Academy? ... they hate something while at the same time thinking 'Well, it's certainly evil and somebody should try to stop it but I'm a single nobody from the ass-end of nowhere, what can I do?' and just getting on with their lives.

It has a lot to do with him wanting to get out of a remote, isolated town, and as a lowly farmer, he's likely only going to be accepted into the Imperial Academy. i live in a small village, 90% of the students in my class moved away as soon as high school finished. we all wanted to get out of there asap. (i only moved back because a job opened up).

My point exactly. He may not particularly like the Empire but he's willing to use their institutions if it gets him off Tattooine. The 'RAR! Fight the Empire!' doesn't happen until his foster parents are killed. Heck I'd argue it didn't happen until sometime between ANH and TESB. In ANH, Luke wasn't fighting against the Empire so much as he was fighting to save Leia and avenge Ben.

[fordlltwm]

Plus there's the TIE fighter threat to consider. Luke needed the force to make the shot under serious time pressure while desperately trying to evade multiple enemy fighters in perfect killing position behind him. Take away the fighters and the rebel pilots have all the time to fly a nice straight approach and give the targeting computer plenty of time to set up a perfect shot. It's reasonable to think that the x-wing's targeting computer was capable of making the shot (otherwise why even make an attempt), but not capable of compensating for less than ideal circumstances.

It's quite possible the fact that Luke and co where flat out down the trench rather than at a slightly more sedate (y-wing speed) bombing speed had an effect on the accuracy of the computer.

[Ahriman238]

Eh, at least one character says it can't be done, and is immediately contradicted by Luke. So clearly in-universe opinions differ. Luke's argument was that he and his friends used to do something similar in his shitty speeder, but there might be a slight difference between strafing womp rat burrows in a speeder and a full-speed attack run in a fighter.

I thought the Empire was throwing out some kind of jamming/interference that messed with the targeting computers, thus necessitating Luke's eyeballing it. It isn't supported by the movie, but I think it may have been in the ANH novelization, or it was some other EU tidbit.

[Batman]

I don't think it was explicit about messing with the targeting computers but the ANH novel definitely mentions jamming.

[Elfdart]

1) What if, in "Empire Strikes Back," Luke had listened to Yoda, and stayed and finished his Jedi training, rather than running-off to save Han and Leia (and wound-up needing to be saved himself BY Leia and Lando)?

<snip>

In the first case, everything would've remained the same for Han and Leia, and Cloud City in general, up to the point where Luke arrived in the original. Han would still have been frozen presumably. Leia and Lando would still have gotten away w/o Luke's help, and wouldn't have needed to come back to rescue the now-one-handed Luke. But . . . R2D2, who was with Luke the whole time remember, wouldn't have been there to fix the Millennium Falcon's hyperdrive, allowing whichever heroes were there to ultimately escape. Only thing is, Vader was only interested in Leia and Han as bait to draw Luke in. If that hadn't worked, Vader MIGHT not have cared if they escaped (tho probably would've ordered the Falcon destroyed for the hell of it).

If Luke never comes Vader has no reason to keep Leia and Chewie alive (a plenty of good reasons to kill two Rebels who caused him so much headache). He handed Han over to Boba Fett, so he's also screwed, though Fully Trained Luke might be able to rescue him later. Or not: remember that Han gets frozen to test out the freezing chamber which is going to be used on Luke. If Luke never shows up, no need to freeze Han, and an unfrozen Solo has a good chance of being fed to the Rancor rather than being displayed as a trophy.

Meanwhile, Luke would presumably have progressed as far with his Jedi training as possible with Yoda on Dagobah, and would (presumably) have been told the truth about Vader. Luke would at least have been more capable when he did ultimately face Vader. Han would still be frozen in carbonite waiting to be rescued, and it's anyone's guess what would've happened to Leia and Lando.

<snip>

Lando's ploy of using his policemen to ambush the stormtroopers marching Leia and Chewie to Vader's ship doesn't seem likely to work when Vader isn't preoccupied with Luke.

In the 1st case, I think it's key that R2, who was with Luke on Dagobah, winds-up on Cloud City, and fixes the Falcon's hyperdrive, allowing the heroes (whichever ones are present), to escape. Otherwise, there's little question it would've been better if Luke had listened to Yoda!

Rewriting their escape from Bespin wouldn't be that hard. Maybe Lando's aide has more tricks up his sleeve than just getting the drop on a few Imperial troops. Once on board the Falcon, it could simply be a matter of Lando flipping the same switch R2 did.

[Darth Mencken]

The best What If I've read in Star Wars, now lost to the vast internet, was one that starts on Mustafar, where after chopping off Anakin's legs Obi-Wan decides to take him prisoner and basically sits on him the whole flight away until they've talked out their differences and Anakin is tentatively on the side of good again.

Amusingly, instead of dying while saying that Anakin still has good in him, Padme lives and decides she wants a divorce and for him to never, ever come near her children.

Anyway, instead of becoming hermits Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin become very active in organizing the Rebel Alliance and finding/rescuing other Jedi who escaped the initial Purge.


As for some other ideas (though the few Jedi masters not hiding from the universe while the galaxy goes to shit would be a major change in and of itself) how about Padme gets an autopsy that reveals she had given birth, (maybe even that she had twins) and Vader obsessively searches for his heir?

If you want to stick to the OT, Han never jettisons his cargo (that Jabba was bitching at him for) and gets pinched by the Empire, Luke and Obi-Wan charter a different ship to Alderan, perhaps one less reliable or willing to storm the Death Star with them. Leia breaks under torture and gives up the Rebel Base, now she and her rescuers have to build a new rebellion from the ground up, with the last one's failure hanging over their heads. Vader recognizes that Leia's resistance to truth serum springs from powerful, but untrained force potential and tries to turn her to the Dark Side to use against the Emperor, your choice whether or not he succeeds, because even Leia having correspondence course level understanding of her powers could seriously change things.

Han is deep in debt, not to Jabba, but to the more interesting EU villain Prince Xizor (or an original character) who uses that debt and a bit of blackmail to convince Han and Chewie to be his inside man in the Rebellion.

Dunno. Seems Padme divorcing him, and warning him to stay away from the kids, would drive Anakin/Vader right back to the Dark Side, if he did try to do a face-heel-face turn. Also, even with Obi Wan giving Anakin a good talking-to (while sitting on him!), Anakin would still have done the things he did (butchered a bunch of trusting children with his lightsabre, and Force-choked his own pregnant wife). Be almost like Gadaffi chairing the UN Human Rights Council.

And I always wondered why/how Vader (supposedly stronger in the Force than any being ever) didn't/couldn't have sensed the level of Force (half his own) in Leia when he was in the same room with her, while she was being tortured.

We don't see Leia being tortured (No question it was brutal). It's not clear how close she came to breaking. Chances are, if she did "break," she would've just told Vader then, "Dantooine, they're on Dantooine!"

And Han's first priority (at least until the last 1/3 of "A New Hope") was self-preservation. If he calculated he could better deal with the consequences of dumping his cargo than getting caught with the goods by the Imperials, then he would've dumped the cargo all the same.

The best "What If's," IMO, simply presume a character makes a different choice at a point in the original where they were CLEARLY conflicted. Luke, on Dagobah, upon seeing a vision of Han and Leia in jeopardy, is a textbook example. IMO, he COULD have chosen differently.

Also, it wouldn't have involved suddenly making Anakin a genius in the opera house scene to have him question, "How does the Chancellor know so much about the Dark Side, and the Sith? And why did he choose to steer the conversation in such an odd direction?"

[Dominarch's Hope]

What if Anakin helps Mace, or simply lets him, kill Palpatine?

[Darth Mencken]

1) What if, in "Empire Strikes Back," Luke had listened to Yoda, and stayed and finished his Jedi training, rather than running-off to save Han and Leia (and wound-up needing to be saved himself BY Leia and Lando)?

<snip>

In the first case, everything would've remained the same for Han and Leia, and Cloud City in general, up to the point where Luke arrived in the original. Han would still have been frozen presumably. Leia and Lando would still have gotten away w/o Luke's help, and wouldn't have needed to come back to rescue the now-one-handed Luke. But . . . R2D2, who was with Luke the whole time remember, wouldn't have been there to fix the Millennium Falcon's hyperdrive, allowing whichever heroes were there to ultimately escape. Only thing is, Vader was only interested in Leia and Han as bait to draw Luke in. If that hadn't worked, Vader MIGHT not have cared if they escaped (tho probably would've ordered the Falcon destroyed for the hell of it).

If Luke never comes Vader has no reason to keep Leia and Chewie alive (a plenty of good reasons to kill two Rebels who caused him so much headache). He handed Han over to Boba Fett, so he's also screwed, though Fully Trained Luke might be able to rescue him later. Or not: remember that Han gets frozen to test out the freezing chamber which is going to be used on Luke. If Luke never shows up, no need to freeze Han, and an unfrozen Solo has a good chance of being fed to the Rancor rather than being displayed as a trophy.

Meanwhile, Luke would presumably have progressed as far with his Jedi training as possible with Yoda on Dagobah, and would (presumably) have been told the truth about Vader. Luke would at least have been more capable when he did ultimately face Vader. Han would still be frozen in carbonite waiting to be rescued, and it's anyone's guess what would've happened to Leia and Lando.

<snip>

Lando's ploy of using his policemen to ambush the stormtroopers marching Leia and Chewie to Vader's ship doesn't seem likely to work when Vader isn't preoccupied with Luke.

In the 1st case, I think it's key that R2, who was with Luke on Dagobah, winds-up on Cloud City, and fixes the Falcon's hyperdrive, allowing the heroes (whichever ones are present), to escape. Otherwise, there's little question it would've been better if Luke had listened to Yoda!

Rewriting their escape from Bespin wouldn't be that hard. Maybe Lando's aide has more tricks up his sleeve than just getting the drop on a few Imperial troops. Once on board the Falcon, it could simply be a matter of Lando flipping the same switch R2 did.

IIRC, Han was frozen before Luke arrived. Everything on Bespin remains the same up to the point where Luke arrives in this scenario.

Not sure how long Vader would've waited for Luke to show-up, if he hadn't when he did in the original. I'll need to rewatch "Empire," to see exactly when Lando's "policemen" save Leia and Chewie.

As for Lando's aide helping them escape in the absence of R2. Maybe, maybe not.

[Darth Mencken]

What if Anakin helps Mace, or simply lets him, kill Palpatine?

Another one I thought about, but forgot to mention! Well, I imagine Anakin would've asked, "What have I done?" as he did in the original. But this time, it would've been Mace telling him, "You've fulfilled your destiny." Then Anakin would bring-up the little issue of, "How do we explain to the Senate, and everyone else, why it was necessary for us to kill the Chancellor?" Somehow, I doubt it would all have worked-out smoothly. Plus, there's still the little problem of Padme possibly dying in childbirth (Jeez, when I first watched it, I thought, "That's still a problem in a galaxy-spanning civilization?!? What are they, preindustrial?!?").