Am I immoral?

C.S.Strowbridge · Post by **C.S.Strowbridge** » 2002-08-23 12:13am

Today I heard muslims extremists in the Philippines beheaded two people for being infidels. My first thought was, 'Damn religious fundementalists.' (Ok, that wasn't exactly my first thought, but I don't know what the rules are over language here, and I don't want to be kicked off the forum.) Then I found out the infidels were Jehovah's Witnesses ... And I had to pause and think if that was really a bad thing. I still haven't decided.

On the one hand, people getting killed over what they believe is bad. On the other hand, Jehovah's Witnesses is, at best, an intolerant religion, at worse a wackjob nutty cult. (And I know nutty cults, I run one.)

So is it immoral to think, 'At least there's two less Jehovah's Witnesses to wake me up on Saturday just to tell me I'm going to hell.'

Mr. B · Post by **Mr. B** » 2002-08-23 12:23am

C.S.Strowbridge wrote: Today I heard muslims extremists in the Philippines beheaded two people for being infidels. My first thought was, 'Damn religious fundementalists.' (Ok, that wasn't exactly my first thought, but I don't know what the rules are over language here, and I don't want to be kicked off the forum.) Then I found out the infidels were Jehovah's Witnesses ... And I had to pause and think if that was really a bad thing. I still haven't decided.

On the one hand, people getting killed over what they believe is bad. On the other hand, Jehovah's Witnesses is, at best, an intolerant religion, at worse a wackjob nutty cult. (And I know nutty cults, I run one.)

So is it immoral to think, 'At least there's two less Jehovah's Witnesses to wake me up on Saturday just to tell me I'm going to hell.'

Wrong, probably. Immoral, no. In my opinion they deserved it, considering how they try to convert the locals and crush their culture. Or what the missionaries did to the natives of S. America.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-08-23 12:37am

It's "immoral" only in the same sense that it's "immoral" to make light of Islamic extremists getting blown up by US Special Forces. If you want to be as morally pure as the driven snow, all life is precious and one should never be pleased at the death of any human being.

However, once we return from la-la land and plant our feet firmly on solid ground, they were idiotic religious extremists who (to put it bluntly) asked for it. If stupidity is a crime, they deserved (and received) the death penalty for it, by plying their trade in the vicinity of Muslim extremists. Their fanatical zeal is the sort that makes men throw away their lives for an ideology, and that is a terrifying sort of zeal. If you devalue your own life, there is little to stop you from devaluing the lives of others as well.

In other words, I nominate them for the Darwin Awards and I won't weep over them, any more than I do over any other Darwin Award winner. Stupidity is the only crime in the world that tends to exact its own justice.

Mind you, if you had actually killed those two people instead of failing to feel sorrow over their deaths, you would be immoral.

Raziel · Post by **Raziel** » 2002-08-23 03:46am

They asked for it. Plain and simple. What they were probably doing can be likened to bear-baiting, only with two broken legs and a slab of meat tied to your chest.

Are you immoral for thinking that? I say no, but there are many people who'd call you an awful person for thinking that. These are the same people who insist that dwarfs be called "vertically challenged people" and fat slobs "big boned"; cry-babies who take it upon themselves to make the world a happier, more sensitive place where kittens and retarded children can play on the street without having to be afraid of crime, nuclear war, name-calling and bad table manners. These are the same people who say that my Saturday morning cartoons and computer games have shaped me into a lethal human weapon, on par with the best special forces ops in the world.

*cough* sorry, that rant was building for a while. But my point is that what Mr. Wong says is 100% correct. There's Happy Funtime Nice World and there's Real Life, where people die and endings are rarely happy.

A slight tangent: Last year a particularly hot-headed Christian zealot in the US said something about the next world-war being not between nationstates, but Christianity and Islam. He's partially correct. The next world-war will be between the religious extremists and everyone else (religious moderates included).

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-08-23 07:11am

Maybe we'll get lucky and all the fundamentalists from various religions will kill each other off...

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-08-23 07:54am

C.S.Strowbridge wrote:Am I immoral?

Not in this case. You're simply watching a spectator sport. It's like extreme sports - people doing idiotic suicidal things of their own volition. Enjoying it may be a bit twisted, but so is the rest of life.

But your linking sprees (not to mention your choice of links) on ASVS certify that you are indeed immoral. May the Green Flame consume you first.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2002-08-23 08:39am

Fundamentalists have their own funny set of rules. I bet you that sometime, somewhere along the way to their deaths, one of those Jehovah's Witnesses thought to himself, "I'm going to be a martyr!"

Hell, Amish people are fundamentalists, but they don't hijack horses at pitchfork-point and run them into the side of barns.

ArthurDent · Post by **ArthurDent** » 2002-08-23 08:58am

Hmmm...so now its OK to kill people simply because they believe something different than you. This place just keeps getting better and better.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-08-23 09:04am

ArthurDent wrote:Hmmm...so now its OK to kill people simply because they believe something different than you. This place just keeps getting better and better.

Yes, it is. As more idiots like yourself crawl out of the woodwork, the rest of us get to have more fun than ever.

I can only assume you missed the numerous people stating that it's wrong to kill people, but not to watch them die. In fact, I doubt there was a single post among those above that said it was right to kill Jehovas Wittnesses.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-23 09:07am

Hmmm...so now its OK to kill people simply because they believe something different than you. This place just keeps getting better and better.

Is it me or do some people get a little slower every day?
Tell me if I where to jump into a lion cage with steaks attached and punch a lion in the nose would it be wrong for you to laugh and point and say
Idiot?

Then whats the diffrence between that and hopping into a Country where they pratice what they preach(IE-Attempting to make the people worship other gods is punsible by DEATH)
This is not hidden, any idiot could call up the State Deparment and find out there are a ton of Laws in these Countrys that say if you try and convert Islamic people to another religion they CAN and WILL kill you

So whats the diffrence between that the Lion and Marching around Times square with a Sign on your back saying I hate Blacks, Jews, and the NYPD?

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2002-08-23 09:15am

ArthurDent wrote:Hmmm...so now its OK to kill people simply because they believe something different than you. This place just keeps getting better and better.

CLUE: You are metaphorically getting out of the safari jeep and kicking the lions. Guess what that means, metaphorically?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » 2002-08-23 09:22am

ArthurDent wrote:Hmmm...so now its OK to kill people simply because they believe something different than you. This place just keeps getting better and better.

*BOL* You really are fond of your strawmen, aren't you?

Let's take it in slow, simple steps even you might be able to follow:
1. It is a fairly obvious fact that these Muslim extremists don't like people who proselytise for other religions (and I mean really don't like them. "Let's kill them dead" kind of don't like them).
2. These Jehovah's Witnesses decided to go proselytise anyway (this is commonly referred to as "walking up to a wide awake lion, kicking it in the head and then putting your head in its mouth while you wait for it to eat you")
3. Surprise, surprise, the extremists from point 1 behaved exactly as expected and killed the JW's from point 2

The position of the extremists from point 1 is extremely immoral and has not been defended in any way. However, given the situation in point 1, the actions of the JW's from point 2 could quite accurately be described as deliberately suicidal. And so, the person writing out the death certificate in point 3 would be justified in writing: "Cause of Death: TSTL (To Stupid To Live)". I've never had much sympathy for people who die for that reason.

How much sympathy would you have for a guy who dies because he thought it would be fun to play Russian Roulette with a Glock 9mm? Try visiting http://www.darwinawards.com/ - the extremists may be immoral, but they certainly improved the gene pool.

ArthurDent · Post by **ArthurDent** » 2002-08-23 09:31am

Last I heard the Phillipeans was not a fundamentalist Islamic state, so your claims that the JWs knew what they were getting into holds no water. Indeed the official religion there is Catholicism, not Islam. The first post contained no links to news stories and no specific information about the event. Yet you guys are claiming all sorts of things that, so far, are completely unsupported.

But its OK to feel good about people getting killed because they deserved it.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2002-08-23 09:33am

Some thoughts

The government of Thailand has the death penalty for drug trafficking.

Do anyone really feel sorry for people that try to traffic drugs and to cash in big if the succeed?

Their gamble, they are aware of the rules so don’t come crying when the rules bites back.

The Jehovah's Witnesses might be doing this for their own reason. IE I converted some infidels now I am going to heaven.

But they got caught and sentenced to death for a death penalty crime in that country.

Mind I am not saying that the death penalty for the Witnesses where an appropriate sentence but it’s the law of Philippines.

They where aware of the law and wilfully broke it so they had to pay the bill for breaking the law.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2002-08-23 09:41am

ArthurDent wrote:Yet you guys are claiming all sorts of things that, so far, are completely unsupported.

Okay. That's a bit of a diversion, but let's address it. Let's say we *change* the nature of the discussion to a hypothetical situation wherein two JW's went to confront KNOWN hostile Islamics to try to convert them, and ended up getting executed as infidels. At that time, most of the people in this thread would STILL probably suggest that the JWs got what was coming to them.

It would be like you walking into a Columbian drug lord's plantation and telling him that drugs are bad. You may have the right reasons, but you're still going to get a bullet in the eye. And at that time, anyone with any bloody common sense is going to roll back and laugh because it is humorous to think of ANYONE being so dumb as to try a stunt like that, not the fact that they died doing it.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-23 09:59am

Last I heard the Phillipeans was not a fundamentalist Islamic state, so your claims that the JWs knew what they were getting into holds no water. Indeed the official religion there is Catholicism, not Islam. The first post contained no links to news stories and no specific information about the event. Yet you guys are claiming all sorts of things that, so far, are completely unsupported.

Acutal they are not Fundmentalist but guess what? THEY STILL HAVE SIMILAR LAWS AND OH YEAH DONT FORGET THE REBELS ON THE ISLAND WHO ARE TRYING TO KILL ALL FORGINERS!

Is it my fault if a Grown Man goes and plays hop-skotch in a Marked Mine Field?
No he was the idiot who walk over the fence and started jumping...

Kindly take your head out of your arse Dent, I've seen better reasnoing from Drunken Hobos then you
(Espcial when you can't quote where anyone says that we should kill Jws)

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-23 10:04am

And a further point Both the Koran and Bible Contain passage mandating death to anyone who trys to convert people away from the one True faith

What honselty do you think is going to happen if you try and covnert these people?

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-08-23 10:08am

ArthurDent wrote:Last I heard the Phillipeans was not a fundamentalist Islamic state, so your claims that the JWs knew what they were getting into holds no water. Indeed the official religion there is Catholicism, not Islam. The first post contained no links to news stories and no specific information about the event. Yet you guys are claiming all sorts of things that, so far, are completely unsupported.

But its OK to feel good about people getting killed because they deserved it.

You still perpetuated a strawman by stating we thought it was okay to kill, oh wellspring of ignorance.

ArthurDent · Post by **ArthurDent** » 2002-08-23 10:37am

Faram wrote:But they got caught and sentenced to death for a death penalty crime in that country.

Mind I am not saying that the death penalty for the Witnesses where an appropriate sentence but it’s the law of Philippines.

It is not against the law in the Phillipeans to proseletyze one's religion. These people were killed by Muslim extremeists acting on their own, not under government sanction. Indeed I have yet to see any evidence that they were working in a Muslim area. The two American missionaries that were held for over a year were kidnapped from a predominantly Catholic area of the country, not on a Muslim seperatist island.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2002-08-23 10:46am

ArthurDent wrote:
Faram wrote:But they got caught and sentenced to death for a death penalty crime in that country.

Mind I am not saying that the death penalty for the Witnesses where an appropriate sentence but it’s the law of Philippines.
It is not against the law in the Phillipeans to proseletyze one's religion. These people were killed by Muslim extremeists acting on their own, not under government sanction. Indeed I have yet to see any evidence that they were working in a Muslim area. The two American missionaries that were held for over a year were kidnapped from a predominantly Catholic area of the country, not on a Muslim seperatist island.

Ehh

Sorry guess I should have read up on Philippines some more...

ArthurDent · Post by **ArthurDent** » 2002-08-23 10:47am

Eleas wrote:You still perpetuated a strawman by stating we thought it was okay to kill, oh wellspring of ignorance.

Quote where I made that specific claim.

But I'll quote some jewels from this thread for you:

So is it immoral to think, 'At least there's two less Jehovah's Witnesses to wake me up on Saturday just to tell me I'm going to hell.'

In my opinion they deserved it, considering how they try to convert the locals and crush their culture.

However, once we return from la-la land and plant our feet firmly on solid ground, they were idiotic religious extremists who (to put it bluntly) asked for it. If stupidity is a crime, they deserved (and received) the death penalty for it, by plying their trade in the vicinity of Muslim extremists.

They asked for it. Plain and simple.

Maybe we'll get lucky and all the fundamentalists from various religions will kill each other off...

You're simply watching a spectator sport. It's like extreme sports - people doing idiotic suicidal things of their own volition.

And then you said:

I can only assume you missed the numerous people stating that it's wrong to kill people, but not to watch them die. In fact, I doubt there was a single post among those above that said it was right to kill Jehovas Wittnesses.

Apperently you haven't read the thread.

And the crown jewel of them all:

Mind you, if you had actually killed those two people instead of failing to feel sorrow over their deaths, you would be immoral.

So its OK to cheer when somebody gets murdered so long as you didn't do the killing yourself.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-08-23 11:08am

ArthurDent wrote:
Eleas wrote:You still perpetuated a strawman by stating we thought it was okay to kill, oh wellspring of ignorance.
Quote where I made that specific claim.

By all means. This is what happened:
* Strowbridge asks if it's immoral to be amused by suicidal annoying people getting their wish (i.e., death)
* Mr B says no.
* Wong says no.
* Raziel says they asked for it, which they did.
* Crazy_Vasey expresses the desire that all of these people kill themselves.
* I say jump on the bandwagon and say that no, it's not immoral to be amused by the death of an idiot.
* Lagmonster laments the sad facts of martyrdom
* You say:
"Hmmm...so now its OK to kill people simply because they believe something different than you. This place just keeps getting better and better."

See, this is a strawman, as you're clearly misrepresenting our position. This is where you stated we thought it was "...OK to kill people... [who] ...believe something different...", even though none of us thought the act itself - the killing - was okay.

Hint: when being dishonest, try to be less obvious about it.

ArthurDent · Post by **ArthurDent** » 2002-08-23 12:01pm

See, this is a strawman, as you're clearly misrepresenting our position. This is where you stated we thought it was "...OK to kill people... [who] ...believe something different...", even though none of us thought the act itself - the killing - was okay.

Guilty as charged I guess. Have fun reveling.

Hint: when being dishonest, try to be less obvious about it.

I'll certainly devote my best efforts to that endeavor.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-08-23 12:49pm

ArthurDent wrote:
See, this is a strawman, as you're clearly misrepresenting our position. This is where you stated we thought it was "...OK to kill people... [who] ...believe something different...", even though none of us thought the act itself - the killing - was okay.
Guilty as charged I guess. Have fun reveling.
Hint: when being dishonest, try to be less obvious about it.
I'll certainly devote my best efforts to that endeavor.

All your sheep are belong to me.

C.S.Strowbridge · Post by **C.S.Strowbridge** » 2002-08-23 02:28pm

Lagmonster wrote:Hell, Amish people are fundamentalists, but they don't hijack horses at pitchfork-point and run them into the side of barns.

I would pay money to see that!

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