UK to possibly hold EU referendum

[EnterpriseSovereign]

As a UK citizen, I hear all the time the UK politicians bashing Europe for one reason or another; but no-one seems to be preaching about the benefits of being in Europe. This is going to turn into something that you'll only miss in/when it's gone, so unless people seriously look at what the EU does for the UK they won't have a clue what's best for the country. Proof if proof were needed that what people want isn't necessarily what's actually best.

Anyone remember Cameron's pre-election quote which said he wanted the UK to be "in, but not run by, Europe"?

[Vendetta]

a border policy more nuanced than "if you're rich and white come on in, everyone else fuck off".

If you're rich, white and speak English as a first language.

The importance of C declines in proportion to how much A you have. Extremely rich Russians, for instance, are more than welcome. No, please, have a football club.

Anyway, it's no coincidence that this comes as the vote share of UKIP is increasing. To forestall Nigel Farage* graduating from picking up the change he drops to actually stealing his lunch money, Cameron is coming out with the "Tough on Europe, tough on the causes of Europe" rhetoric.


* Seriously, I didn't think it was possible to have a more punchable face than Michael Gove. But there he is.

[LaCroix]

If the other EU leaders are feeling merciful, they could engineer a situation in which Cameron can save face; allowing him something symbolically important yet meaningless in practice.

You massively overestimate the goodwill left for Great Britain within the EU. For at least a decade, Britain has not only constantly demanded that its privilleges (e.g. "British Rebate", which is currently about 5 to 6 BILLION Pound, which has to be paid by other member countries) are left untouched, and has constantly thrown its weight around in opposing or outright vetoing necessary decisions until it got its way. Britain had once an important role as there was a rivalry between France and Germany it could exploitn, but they are friends now, while Cameron pissed off almost everyone. Noone would run to his aid.

[Vendetta]

The British Rebate on EU budget contributions still exists because the UK gets a small return from the Common Agricultural Policy proportional to its budget contribution, and without it the net contribution from the UK to the EU's budget would be out of proportion to the net contributions of other major economies who receive more in return from the CAP.

[Thanas]

So what? It still is an extra the British by all rights should not have. After all, nobody is asking if, say, Germany gets a proportionate return on its footing the Greek bill.

[Vendetta]

Germany's return for footing the bill for Greece is that the Euro doesn't collapse.

Without the rebate, the UK's net budget contribution to the EU would be out of proportion to all other contributers relative to the size of the economy (the UK would be contributing roughly the same net as Germany with a 25% smaller GDP), largely paying for CAP contributions to other large economies rather than for development of the poorer EU states (mostly France, which receives 22% of the CAP funds).

That's why at the last negotiation on the subject removal of the rebate was tied to reform of the CAP (and would really need to be part of a general reform of member state budget contributions), because the two are intrinsically linked.

[Thanas]

Germany's return for footing the bill for Greece is that the Euro doesn't collapse.

And British return for her contributions are her continued presence in the EU. See how that argument works?

Without the rebate, the UK's net budget contribution to the EU would be out of proportion to all other contributers relative to the size of the economy (the UK would be contributing roughly the same net as Germany with a 25% smaller GDP), largely paying for CAP contributions to other large economies rather than for development of the poorer EU states (mostly France, which receives 22% of the CAP funds).

And again, so what? The mere notion of a rebate is preposterous and it is only British temper tantrums which got that rebate in the first place. I see no reason it should continue.

[D.Turtle]

Frankly, I'd be happy if the UK left. They are the ones holding back any major political reform efforts. With them gone, the EU can finally continue moving forward.

[Vendetta]

And British return for her contributions are her continued presence in the EU. See how that argument works?

Yes, however the return is lower than the investment due to Britains abnormally low return from the CAP (formerly 80% of the EU budget) due to the UK having significantly less of its GDP composed of agricultural output.

The point of the rebate is that the UK is paying into a system which it does not and can not benefit from nearly as much as the other major EU economies, and so that portion of the UK's contribution is reduced, and it is done as a rebate because it is assessed after the rest of the budget based on what the UK would have received from the CAP if it didn't have an abnormally small agricultural sector. (and this is also why when the rebate was renegotiated down by 20% in 2005 there was a stipulation that the extra money not be spent on the CAP)

As far as the UK is concerned the CAP is like US health insurance, a system paid into which doesn't pay out due to a preexisting condition of no farms.

[LaCroix]

As far as the UK is concerned the CAP is like US health insurance, a system paid into which doesn't pay out due to a preexisting condition of no farms.

http://www.foodsecurity.ac.uk/issue/uk.html

The food and drink supply chain is the UK’s single largest manufacturing sector and accounts for 7% of GDP, employs 3.7M people and is worth £80Bn per year (ref 1).

But although the UK has a thriving farming sector – it exported £12Bn of food and drink in 2007 (ref 2) – Britain is not self-sufficient in food production; it imports 40% of the total food consumed and the proportion is rising (ref 1). Therefore, as a food-trading nation, Britain relies on both imports and thriving export markets to feed itself and drive economic growth.

Comparison of Britain and German Agriculture
Comparison of Britain and French Agriculture

[Vendetta]

A few links do not a point make.

If your point is that the UK should pay into the CAP in order to support itself via food imports, this is rather like saying I should pay you for the privelege of being allowed to buy things from you. It is rather an argument for not paying excessively into CAP because it means that the UK is free to spend its money in any market able to support its needs without subsidising French farmers (the largest recipient of CAP funds at 22%, the UK receives 9% of the CAPs funding) who might sell us back the things we need.