What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

[Carinthium]

Say you were one of the German high command circa 1936. You have the advantage of hindsight, and for some reason you are genuinely loyal to Adolf Hitler, and are trying to do the best you can for him.

How can you shift German thiking to better deal with the challenges of Britain and the Soviet Union? What people and technology is it best to champion(though this one's probably fairly easy for those who actually know this area)? Finally, assuming you have to act as a genuine loyalist to Hitler, is there any way to get Germany out of the inevitable strategic quagmire this will create and thus save his reigme?

[atg]

The only remote chance Germany has is to not get the Soviet Union or the USA involved. As soon as one of them get involved they can't match the Allies economically. Hitler's racial plans don't really allow for peace with the Soviet Union.

[Thanas]

....and moved.

[Gandalf]

How much influence do I have here?

I'd argue that the better long term plan is to become an economic power, not to be accomplished through military means. Of course, this is dependent on basically having diplomancy.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Tell him that the Slavs and Germans/Nords killing each other by the millions is a plan by the Jews to cripple and weaken both.

Tell him that since millions of Jews live in America, that slaughtering the Jews by the millions will merely give the surviving Jews propaganda to make the Aryan Master Race™ feel ashamed and hate itself and that the best bet is to seclude them all in one place, and once that done, leave them. Just dont slaughter them wholesale. Eventually, give them to America or Israel.

To the first, have communiques with Stalin, warning that the British informing him of an impending invasion is part of the Rothschild's blah blah blah.

BAM.

Peace with the USSR and most of the Jews in Europe survive.

thats...30 million lives saved?

Also, advise against keeping up the war against Britain, continually seek peace through the Ambassadors in America. No raiding at sea or anything. Atleast, in the Atlantic.

In the Med though, advise enforcing the legitimate claims of French north Africa.

In Europe, never fly a single mission over Britain's skies. Not one. Instead, focus on expanding the fighter and antibomber corp. I wont reciprocate, but I advise on self defense. Build bomber sized vessels that have assloads of 20mm cannons for flying broadsides along with the fighters. Same in the Med, only defend ourselves. And use Uboats to smuggle shitloads of American Journalist.

Always seek peace with the USA and pressure to lift the blockade, never bomb Britain, secure and decently defensible border with the USSR and never enact the Final Solution.

1950. Nazi Dominated Europe and Africa with a possibility of the Jews getting the state of Israel to get them out of Europe.

1990-Israel and Nazi Europe have wonderfully close ties and are traditional allies. lolololololol

But seriously, thats like a potential 30 million lives saved. Thats worth it, right?

Turns out its closer to 40 million. And Forgot about the persecution of Gypsies and Homosexuals. Sorry. Its just not brought up as much as the Jews, mostly due to scale IMO.

[Carinthium]

If you don't attack the Soviet Union, they'll build up industrial and military strength. Historically, Stalin's plan was to take advantage of the Allies and Axis fighting each other, build up, then invade Europe. Given Russia's size, he has a good chance of posing a serious threat to German stability.

[Gandalf]

If you don't attack the Soviet Union, they'll build up industrial and military strength. Historically, Stalin's plan was to take advantage of the Allies and Axis fighting each other, build up, then invade Europe. Given Russia's size, he has a good chance of posing a serious threat to German stability.

Hence my idea of avoiding war altogether. If Stalin were to decide to go west, Germany could then be fighting with the west to stop the USSR.

There's a lot of variables in this.

[Dominarch's Hope]

If you don't attack the Soviet Union, they'll build up industrial and military strength. Historically, Stalin's plan was to take advantage of the Allies and Axis fighting each other, build up, then invade Europe. Given Russia's size, he has a good chance of posing a serious threat to German stability.

Without the lessons that Barbarossa drove into them for good, that might just be hilariously illadvised.


Any major build up would be noticed. And wasnt this a myth anyways?


Although there is the horrible possibility that its a repeat of WWI Eastern Front, with the Soviets being beatn back slowly but surely while the Nazis enjoy a logistical steroid boost.

Still.... I doubt that Stalin would do it.

[aieeegrunt]

Germany cannot fight a coalition of almost all of the other Great Powers and expect to win. Trying to refight WWI is only going to end the same way WWI did. Stay on the defensive, let Stalin come to you. Now you get to be the one fighting with the global coalition.

[Zwinmar]

Built up the Luftwaffe, the concept of Aerodromes was published in '41 (have the book at my dad's so don't remember the title) and accelerate the research into new air craft. Approve the research and production of the MP 43 and 44 (Sturmgewehr). Invest in Panzerfäuste line. Of course, try to speed up the V series of rockets.

Provide the Jewish community with their own homeland, well put them there and let them take it, if they can.
Do not double cross Russia though be ready for the inevitable Russian double cross.
If attacking Britain is a must, keep full pressure on until they break, utilize subs to land commandos.

[phongn]

Built up the Luftwaffe, the concept of Aerodromes was published in '41 (have the book at my dad's so don't remember the title) and accelerate the research into new air craft. Approve the research and production of the MP 43 and 44 (Sturmgewehr). Invest in Panzerfäuste line. Of course, try to speed up the V series of rockets.

Provide the Jewish community with their own homeland, well put them there and let them take it, if they can.
Do not double cross Russia though be ready for the inevitable Russian double cross.
If attacking Britain is a must, keep full pressure on until they break, utilize subs to land commandos.

How is any of that feasible?

[Elfdart]

Say you were one of the German high command circa 1936. You have the advantage of hindsight, and for some reason you are genuinely loyal to Adolf Hitler, and are trying to do the best you can for him.

How can you shift German thiking to better deal with the challenges of Britain and the Soviet Union? What people and technology is it best to champion(though this one's probably fairly easy for those who actually know this area)? Finally, assuming you have to act as a genuine loyalist to Hitler, is there any way to get Germany out of the inevitable strategic quagmire this will create and thus save his reigme?

If you have the advantage of hindsight, how in the name of Burl Ives' left nut is any rational person (or any Nazi, for that matter) going to remain loyal to Hitler? From a Nazi point of view the man was going to destroy the country, let alone the viewpoints of non-imperialists. The best you, Field Marshal von Schlongflogger can do for Hitler is to put him out of his misery as soon as possible, even if it means getting killed in the process.

[Metahive]

Say you were one of the German high command circa 1936. You have the advantage of hindsight, and for some reason you are genuinely loyal to Adolf Hitler, and are trying to do the best you can for him.

How can you shift German thiking to better deal with the challenges of Britain and the Soviet Union? What people and technology is it best to champion(though this one's probably fairly easy for those who actually know this area)? Finally, assuming you have to act as a genuine loyalist to Hitler, is there any way to get Germany out of the inevitable strategic quagmire this will create and thus save his reigme?

You know, I find it disturbing that "lead the Third Reich a victory in WW2" thought experiments are so goddamn' popular all around. WTF would anybody want to hand victory to a genocidal, imperialist regime? You could say it's for the strategic challenge, but guess what, that's what shit like Heart of Iron is for.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Nah, its better to kick as much ass as possible then refuse to go to war against the Soviet Union, at least immediately, thereby trolling Churchill and FDR.

Declare the Mediterranea a Hostile Zone where shit gets sunk mercileslly. Pressure the Luftwaffe into early development of an Ohka type thing and reap the harvest of British Surface ships. When the Japanese do their thing, remind Hitler that quite frankly, he has zero treaty obligations to join in.

I wonder how feasible it would be to hold onto French North Africa and use it to base and launch aircraft at the Royal Navy as it passes through?


Also, advocate that Hitler even offer support to the US against this treacherous plot of the Japanese. Because frankly, if all the Nazis have to worry about is the British Empire, its fairly safe barring genocidal use of Anthrax.


I wonder if that would be possible. To essentially trick Congress into pulling Lend Lease and loans from Britain because the Nazis have been mostly just defending themselves. It would have to also involve not chasing after the British at Dunkirk and not harrasing the evacuation to begin with... 1943 and the blockade is over and the Nazi Superstate stays around for a bit?

Metahive, its a pivotal moment in history. One of the most and one that is relatively simple to guestimate about the outcome.


If the Nazi Empire survived the decade with everything pre Barbarossa and trade returning to normal, then by 1990, its hold over the populace would be like Iron. With a possibility of maybe rusting, but nothing guaranteed. If they manage, however impossibly for whatever reason, to succeed at Barbarossa and get peace with Britain and the US, then by 1990, its North Korean levels of fanatacism without the starvation and the Swastika likely would fly for a millenia.


And the results of that are so outrageously different from today as to be nigh-immeasurable.


Note:I once owned the Draka books and I was disappointed that apparently the Nazis kicked down the USSR that quickly singlehandedly. I had thought it was a joint effort but no....thats when I realized it was dystopic to be dystopic.

[Metahive]

Metahive, its a pivotal moment in history. One of the most and one that is relatively simple to guestimate about the outcome.

If you happen to be an ignorant amateur with only a pop-history to fall back onto, sure.

If the Nazi Empire survived the decade with everything pre Barbarossa and trade returning to normal, then by 1990, its hold over the populace would be like Iron. With a possibility of maybe rusting, but nothing guaranteed. If they manage, however impossibly for whatever reason, to succeed at Barbarossa and get peace with Britain and the US, then by 1990, its North Korean levels of fanatacism without the starvation and the Swastika likely would fly for a millenia.

God, how I love the Nazi-Wank. Wait, that's I lie, I fuckin' hate it. Got no idea of how fundamentally dysfunctional the Nazi government was in reality, eh? Yeah, Greater Germany with Belgium, the Netherlands, France, Poland, Norway, Denmark, Yugoslavia and Greece under its knuckle, that for sure is going to stay the new status quo for millenia [/sarcasm].

[Dominarch's Hope]

Its part of the horror. Not the Evil, cause it didnt happen, but the horror.


I mean really, what is anybody going to do to topple it if peace had been declared? Start the war again?

And past a certain point, it just reverts to MAD again.

And you forget that unlike Communism/Capitalism/Democracy, Nazism and Fascism justify themselves explicitly through military victory. Its the means and the ends.


So...with a Nazified Europe, how exactly are the Nazis going to fall except from invasion by force/lolTBO? Any American/British example of being surpassed can be blown of as fellow Aryans doing it or the Jews lying. Win/Win for the Nazi govt.


Discontent? With a state that was in the process of explicitly turning itself into the religion and crushing all dissent?

Thats part of the terror. If the Nazis had won, thats a nigh eternal victory and the bootheel never gets removed.

[K. A. Pital]

Except that the Nazi Empire would start crumbling real quick, since it is based on buffed-up racial prejudice which is "let's opress those lower races even worse than old colonial empires did". Major wars tend to spread (1) weapons (2) indifference towards mass death - making life cheap. This allows for uprisings to forment and colonial empires start disintegrating. World War I was such a conflict, World War II was another. There's nothing which would stop the British or Nazi Empires from either turning into confederation-based nation-state unions with a central state and satellites (WARPAC and the British Commonwealth during early decolonization being the strongest level of control that one could exert) and eventually dissolving.

[Metahive]

Know what, Dummyass Pope? Not going to bother since educating your immature mind is is looking like such a chore that I'd only do it for a hefty fee paid upfront. Go on and wallow in your delusions of White Aryan Fascist Efficiency and Superiority.

[phongn]

Nah, its better to kick as much ass as possible then refuse to go to war against the Soviet Union, at least immediately, thereby trolling Churchill and FDR.

So the German economy collapses under the strain of trying to maintain a war footing against most of the rest of the world. You're done.

Declare the Mediterranea a Hostile Zone where shit gets sunk mercileslly. Pressure the Luftwaffe into early development of an Ohka type thing and reap the harvest of British Surface ships. When the Japanese do their thing, remind Hitler that quite frankly, he has zero treaty obligations to join in.

I wonder how feasible it would be to hold onto French North Africa and use it to base and launch aircraft at the Royal Navy as it passes through?

None of this is feasible.

Also, advocate that Hitler even offer support to the US against this treacherous plot of the Japanese. Because frankly, if all the Nazis have to worry about is the British Empire, its fairly safe barring genocidal use of Anthrax.

He won't.

I wonder if that would be possible. To essentially trick Congress into pulling Lend Lease and loans from Britain because the Nazis have been mostly just defending themselves. It would have to also involve not chasing after the British at Dunkirk and not harrasing the evacuation to begin with... 1943 and the blockade is over and the Nazi Superstate stays around for a bit?

No. Both the White House and Congress are adamantly opposed to the Nazi state and will be happily shipping unlimited war supplies to Britain. You can either let them pass unmolested and lose, or fight the undeclared war with the US Navy and lose.

Metahive, its a pivotal moment in history. One of the most and one that is relatively simple to guestimate about the outcome.

Your predictions are idiotic.

If the Nazi Empire survived the decade with everything pre Barbarossa and trade returning to normal, then by 1990, its hold over the populace would be like Iron. With a possibility of maybe rusting, but nothing guaranteed. If they manage, however impossibly for whatever reason, to succeed at Barbarossa and get peace with Britain and the US, then by 1990, its North Korean levels of fanatacism without the starvation and the Swastika likely would fly for a millenia.

Uh, no.

[Lord Revan]

Aren't we forgetting a major peice of the puzzle here, mainly that Adolf Hitler hated the military elite(aka the generals) and would have never tolerated any effective changes to his plans no matter how sane they might have been.

If this had been discussed and I missed it, I apologize but it's not irrelevant.

[Ziggy Stardust]

So...with a Nazified Europe, how exactly are the Nazis going to fall except from invasion by force/lolTBO? Any American/British example of being surpassed can be blown of as fellow Aryans doing it or the Jews lying. Win/Win for the Nazi govt.

Discontent? With a state that was in the process of explicitly turning itself into the religion and crushing all dissent?

Thats part of the terror. If the Nazis had won, thats a nigh eternal victory and the bootheel never gets removed.

I hate to dogpile, but ... seriously, dude, just read some fucking books. I don't even care what books, just get some actual history books and read them. Based on your comments here, and elsewhere on the site, it seems like your entire perspective on World War II is derived from video games. Hell, I'd settle for you reading the god-damned Wikipedia entry on Nazi Germany, your view is just so horrifically distorted and divorced from reality.

I mean ... night eternal victory? Seriously? How fucking stupid are you?

[CaptHawkeye]

He should start with Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze, but I don't think it would fit his perceptions. He seems largely uninterested in understanding aspects of war that don't entertain him or weren't taught to him in a video game.

[D.Turtle]

I know he is a tempting target, but people - don't dogpile.

[Dominarch's Hope]

At what point was Stalin considering withdrawing resources before Barbarossa? IIRC, he was perfectly content to let the capitalist power kill each other.


And the votes to give Britain Lend Lease? Pre-War Deccing the US, were they always overwhelming votes with no fighting them? And without Germany pressing for war against the British Empire and continously pressing for peace and never sending a single bomber, just how legitimate does Britain's request look? FDR isnt going to live forever, and without the Nazis declaring war on America and possibly always seeking peace, exactly how legitimate does the vote to go to war against Nazi Germany look?


Face it, Stalin was just fine with the current situation, its Britain that will look like the aggressive dickhead. War is done. Any casualties of the RAF happen over Europe. Eventually it would get to the point of the casualties being unsustainable and increasingly more unjustifiable.


Now, I have to go address a rather stupid strawman...

[phongn]

At what point was Stalin considering withdrawing resources before Barbarossa? IIRC, he was perfectly content to let the capitalist power kill each other.

Of course. There is also the pesky problem of the Nazi state, with an avowed aim to invade Russia and use it for living space, and which is heavily armed, highly militarized and has completed its mastery of continental Europe. You think he's going to assume Germany is going to stay peaceful?

And the votes to give Britain Lend Lease? Pre-War Deccing the US, were they always overwhelming votes with no fighting them? And without Germany pressing for war against the British Empire and continously pressing for peace and never sending a single bomber, just how legitimate does Britain's request look? FDR isnt going to live forever, and without the Nazis declaring war on America and possibly always seeking peace, exactly how legitimate does the vote to go to war against Nazi Germany look?

Why would Germany do such a thing? Britain is actively hostile, in your proposed scenario the Med is a "hostile zone" (which, incidentally, has key portions of the British Empire) so your forces are already pressing for war. You have yet to make a coherent strategy.

Face it, Stalin was just fine with the current situation, its Britain that will look like the aggressive dickhead. War is done. Any casualties of the RAF happen over Europe. Eventually it would get to the point of the casualties being unsustainable and increasingly more unjustifiable.

Why would Britain look like an aggressive dickhead? Germany has just invaded and crushed much of Europe. This is a threat impossible to ignore by any of the world's major powers. The USSR shares a huge land border. The UK has traditionally sought to prevent any one power from unifying Europe. The USA has even less interest in a militarist European superstate. The Third Reich is an existential threat to all three powers and will be responded to accordingly.