What should the German generals have done? (RAR)

[Dominarch's Hope]

Except that the Nazi Empire would start crumbling real quick, since it is based on buffed-up racial prejudice which is "let's opress those lower races even worse than old colonial empires did". Major wars tend to spread (1) weapons (2) indifference towards mass death - making life cheap. This allows for uprisings to forment and colonial empires start disintegrating. World War I was such a conflict, World War II was another. There's nothing which would stop the British or Nazi Empires from either turning into confederation-based nation-state unions with a central state and satellites (WARPAC and the British Commonwealth during early decolonization being the strongest level of control that one could exert) and eventually dissolving.

Stas, youre forgetting. Its the Nazis. Uprisings can and most likely will be dealt with utmost brutality and really, as long as a certain standard of living is upheld and the peopls are lining up in bread lines, then fhe insane levels of indoctrination and propaganda will play its part.

And besides, if America goes on a similar sociological development, then it literally becomes the Nazis greatest propaganda resource.


I mean just the tragedy of the Crack Epidemic, Nazis go "lololololol". AIDS? "lololololololol" Any race riots ever? "See that? Thats what you get with Juuuuuden".


This isnt a Europe that has seen the Nazis be stomped into the ground, it would be a Europe that has seen Germany conquer it right after pulling off a stupidly good economic recovery. Thats all the proof the Nazis need of their own superiority.


For them, just witnessing multiculturalism in America will be enough to make them beleive themselves correct. This is a Europe which has walked down the opppsite path. For us, knowing what the Nazis were is enough to avoid even approaching them again, and rightfully so. But for the atl Nazis? Otherway around. And after 40 years of propaganda of what would boil down to European Superiority being exalted and etc, the only way they would disbeleive themselves is to be defeated.

So what if America ends up with a slightly better standard of living? So what if a handful of "untermenschen" claim to do science? Just a bunch of Jewish lies. And then it gets outright silly by 2000, assuming social equality isbon par with our America. Thats literally 95% of the living population in Europe that was born and raised under the Swastika with history apparently proving the Nazi philosophy entirely correct. With America showing what happens with the alternative.


Now, if its only partial victory, like what would be realistically achievable in any sense, then there might be issues with German/Slavic tensions if Hitler cant convincingly patch that over by blaming the Jews for trying to instigate it. There would also be the darkly hilarious issue of Nazi Europe being as reliant on Soviet oil and gas as the EU is reliant on Russia today. But if that just smooths over, then some issues may arise later on.



But as far as uprisings? Whose doing this, Tito and the happy fun gang in the Balkans?


Sorry Tito, the Werhmaht isnt hammering itself against the USSR at thus time, so youre double fucked.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Stalin actually was content to let Hitler be for the time being. Germany has done nothing up to this point other than the effective rebuilding of its German Empire plus revenge against France for Versailles and secured the Balkans against the British*. Its literally just Western Europe getting the shit beat out of it in round two of a conflict that had dismembered both the German Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Plus its of Western Europe to secure against a potential British raid.


Oh, Vichy France? Nothing but payback.


And in fact, a VERY large chunk of American people have no desire to get involved again and just barely give a shit. Congress might care, but might care, but the general feel was to leave Europe to its own mess.


The fight over the Mediterranean? Self defense against the British raiding legitimate traffic and preventing the Axis from legitimate travel and admimistration of lands and colonies considered theirs.


The fighting the Med barely if at all involves the USN and as long as the US stays out of the war, it stays that way.

Its actually more of a challenge to assume that Roosevelt can keep sending Lend Lease and can keep Congress up to it, especially once the war eith Japan kicks in. I mean, if the Fuhrer abandons Japan, which he could have without breaking any treaty obligations this time around, will Congress really be willing to WarDec them just because? Will
they be willing to continue Lend Lease?


Especially with the Luftwaffe only getting stronger as time goes on in a peace


with Stalin scenario.


*The majority of people in America didt much care about what was happening to the Jews. Then again, they may nit have known the exact plan.

And of course Barbarossa and Ost changes a lot. But thats not being discussed.

[phongn]

Here's the deal which you keep ignoring: the prewar economy of Nazi Germany is totally unsustainable. They could only keep going by looting the rest of Europe, which they promptly did so in a way that more or less wrecked the entire continental economy. There is going to be real unrest when the living standard inevitably drops. (By the way, you still haven't addressed how you're going to persuade Hitler not to go down the path he's longed planned for. You know, the whole extermination of the Jews and conquest of Russia thing.)

But lets look at your latest post, which can more or less be distilled into a few points.

Firstly, you argue that the American populace has no interest in re-fighting the Great War, no matter the aims of the President and Congress. While that may be true, you still have the world's largest and most productive economy that sees Germany as a serious threat. At the least the US will seek economic containment and that is something Germany cannot afford. Even the peacetime Two-Ocean Navy represents a terrible threat, or the projected strategic bombing force. Germany cannot afford to ignore the American military buildup - and they can't afford to contest it, either. And every bit of lend-lease that goes to the UK is another resource that can be used to hurt Germany (and yes, lend-lease will pass, as it was in the real world.)

Secondly, you've changed your definition of the war in the Mediterranean. Your transparent propaganda is not going to be believable; you've just announced your intent to blockade important portions of the British Empire. You also are entering a fight you cannot win, there. It's ludicrous to expect Germany to develop and produce suicide aircraft (and what drove Japan to do it was a vastly different situation) and you can't assume that they'll even be effective! Instead, you are fighting against the strengths of the RN, in an area they must contest if only to keep the lines open to their own territory! This is not the act of a peaceful nation.

Your posts all read of ridiculous fantasy - "lets remove the worst parts of Nazi Germany by fiat and we get a mighty totalitarian state over Europe everyone would fear and respect!"

[Carinthium]

It's suprising how many of my posts lead to one guy fighting against everybody, isn't it? (Though at least this time it's not me...)

phongn, what would you do in the situation anyway? Say that for some reason you're actually loyal to Hitler and his goals but have your real-world level of objectivity about how feasible they are.

[phongn]

phongn, what would you do in the situation anyway? Say that for some reason you're actually loyal to Hitler and his goals but have your real-world level of objectivity about how feasible they are.

Hitler's goals are not winnable. He wants to pick a fight with too many people and he can't get lucky enough times to actually succeed. Starting the war later gives more time for his opponents to prepare; starting it earlier puts the Germany military in a worse position (and one that is not ready). Oh, sure, I might give a few salient pieces of random advice but then what? The war goes better and then nuclear weapons start dropping every so often from B-29s out of Scotland? The Red Army is even angrier on their eventual counter-offensive? Bomber Command deletes a few more cities? The only way to win is not to play - and Germany is on an unalterable course towards war.

[Dominarch's Hope]

With nothing changed, something must be done to prevent Barbarossa. Like anything. If that happens, then(abandon certain issues with the Med that i suggested. Assume the Uboats are assigned escort duty for defense purposes of convoys) the best thing to do would be to pester on about peace with Britain, never declare against America and be an annolying and awkward cheerleader of Americans.

Focus on expanding the Luftwaffe as much as possible and putting all those 88s to blasting flah instead of blasting at Russians, and basically put all that metal against the RAF, and by 1944, the RAF simply CANT keep it up any more. And it looks stupid to the public with no blitz and Germany constantly pressing for peace and the only casualties are from Germany defending itself.


1944-Britain says Fuck It. And either uses anthrax or relents the blockade. Lend Lease or not. The people in America just arent going to give a shit and if they do, will be fairly tired of the war continuing solely because Britain cant stand an United Europe.


Thats basically the only way a heavy chunk of war aims are met and the Nazis remain in power. Alternatively, Britain ends up allied with Nazi Germany, or the USSR has about as much growth percentage wise as Germany did up to Trotsky being kicked out, at which point instead he plays his hand and another civil war happens with Stalin dead and Trotsky on the run anyways.


Or Trotksy does get control, but since he's ethnically Jewish...and was very much pro-world wide communism unlike Stalin to a degree....


But without hanging outside factors, thats really the only way. And its a slim fucking shot at that.

Oh and its notvthe worst aspects. It the stupidest. There in fact, is a difference.
the worst aspects were, you know.


The Holocaust. And the thing that would have made the Holocaust look like a small lake of blood, General Plan Ost, which would have made the Rus run red with oceans of slavic blood. Those are the worst parts.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Stas, youre forgetting. Its the Nazis. Uprisings can and most likely will be dealt with utmost brutality and really, as long as a certain standard of living is upheld and the peopls are lining up in bread lines, then fhe insane levels of indoctrination and propaganda will play its part.

How will this standard of living be upheld with an inefficient economy drained by constant warfare against partisans in conquered territories? You know that Tito in Yugoslavia was not the only anti-Nazi uprising in Europe during the war, yes?

The German economic engine will grind to a halt as soon as there are no lands left to conquer. They didn't have a sensible long-term economic strategy, and in the short term their entire system relied on the looting of occupied territories. Once they loot everything, and have their bloated military mired and weakened by conflicts in Poland, Czechoslovakia, the Balkans, France, the low countries, and possibly even in Germany depending on how dire the situation is, they will collapse in short order.

Just saying, "OMG DER DA NAZIS!!!!!!" does not hand-waive away the logistical impossibility of attaining their goals with the system and resources they had.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Partisans? Being a significant drain? Forever? Against the goddamn Nazis!?

Tito will throw in the towel as soon as the GODDAMN NAZIS get tired of Yugoslavia's bullshit and start cutting a bloody swathe in response. Unless a conventional force comes to kick the Nazis out, Yugoslavia and the worst areas(Especially the non-germanic population and non-nordics) will end up getting depopulated until resistance ends.

Either through giving up, or simply being nonexistent. Because everybody who resisted or sheltered resistance is dead. Probably Croatia or some other people receive the land.

In reality, the partisan efforts were pissdrops compared to the Bombing campaign and the Eastern Front. Especially against the Eastern Front. Partisan efforts alone arent going to do jackshit to the Nazi economy.

And in France? La Resistance`? It was a joke, barely a drain at all. Everywhere else? There wasnt enough resistance to care about. Like at all.

Here is a question. IF the Soviet Union had tried to actually commit total genocide upon Afghanistan after they invaded, and nobody threatened nuclear war over it and etc etc, do you think the Mujahaddeen would have still won?

What if the Coalition/US tried the same from 2002 onwards, do you think there would have been any survivors in Afghanistan?

The reason that shit doesnt occur today, aside from it being evil, atleast on the industrial scale with 1st/2nd world perpetrators, isnt because it doesnt work, its because it politically unviable in the extreme. You would literally have the world at your throat and for damn good reason. The only exception to this is if a nuclear power has used their nuclear weapons offensively in anger without sufficient justification. Then the original perpetrator is more than likely to have nuclear genocide committed upon them. The only exception to this is the USA, because we had a nuclear monopoly at the time.

But thats Nuclear War. The rules are different.

[phongn]

Congratulations, you've killed much of the labor force needed to keep things running and totally alienated the remaining local population. You've also wasted tremendous resources in the endless counter-insurgency campaign. These are not resources Germany can afford to spend lightly.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Much of the labor force? You really think Tito had enough supporters to not get ratted out? Is there any proof that resistance in the Western European countires was anything more than a farce, a vague annoyance?


You really think that Tito will last at all? What with the tremendous amount of spare manpower the German have on hand since Barbarossa didnt happen? You really think that nobody in Yugoslavia has a beef eith him?



Jesus Christ on a fuckstick, you are really dumb.


Most people just got on with their lives or fucking collaberated. Especially in the Western European countries. The Balkans? Just pick an ethnic group, arm them and let them go to town on the others.


The whole point is that against an occupying power like the Nazis, everybody knows what happens in response to serious partisan activity.

And the Nazis main concern for standard of living were...themselves, the Nordic countries, maybe Belgium/Netherlands/Luxembourg, France, everybody else.


Its just funny to see some people whine about some of this shit. Sad but funny.


So, if the war ends in 44 with Barbarossa cancelled and never happening and Britain just giving up in futility, then thr US Govt will take....what, 4 more years to resume normal relations with Europe? Meanwhile, partisans are crushed fairly brutally and are getting sold out left and right. FDR wont live forever and Truman will have to follow the will of the American people to get reelected, an American people who dont see the Nazis as existential enemies, just some Germans getting revenge for Versailles and making sure that France cant pay them back. Oh and they are holding bravely against the Commie Horde just waiting to burst forth. Or not. Stalin? Is generally ok what with avoiding a catastrophic war that did horrendous damage in otl and making his nation stronger and a fair amount of money too.


Colonialism? Who knows for Britain, probably the same as OTL as they are now broke. Its gets worse. And more disturbing. Because they failed to stop the takeover of the continent, and spent years just getting men killed for nothing against a Germany that wanted peace with Britain. Doesnt matter much in the immediate future...


But what about the generation that was ten or younger? Thats a British generation raised on the existence and apparent triumph of Nazi Germany. And Nazi Germany that begged for Britain to see them as brothers. And continue to do so....

[Metahive]

Hey, if I ever wanted to write a doctoral thesis about the Dunning-Krüger effect, your posts would provide all the material I need. Saying that you got all your info from video games is insulting video games. Even Wolfenstein 3D, the one with mecha battlesuit Hitler, had more clue about the Third Reich than you.

[Carinthium]

Metahive, perhaps you should actually try refuting Dominarch's argument? If you know enough to do so, you should be able to...

[Metahive]

Metahive, perhaps you should actually try refuting Dominarch's argument? If you know enough to do so, you should be able to...

O you mean like the argument that the Nazis will manage to keep all those occupied countries FOREVAH AND EVAH under their thumb because they're, like, Nazis and brutal and shit? If you find that to be a compelling argument it's probably because you're as much of an ignorant Nazi-wanker as him.

[Carinthium]

Not really- I just figure that if it's as ridicolous as you say you should be able to refute it.

[Stark]

Look, if you've ever read alt-history you know that the story always ends once the map is coloured in, and 'everyone lives happily ever after'. The idea that the maintenance of large empires with possibly hostile populations is an ongoing task with many challenges that often fails has no place in such stories.

I mean, once the Romans conquered Europe that was the end of the story, right? AND THE ROMANS RULED FOREVER DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN.

[Carinthium]

AS I SAID, I was NOT taking sides on the issue. It's just a point of principle- even if the person you're dealing with is claiming that 1 + 1 = 3, if you have neither a logical nor empirical argument to use against him you shouldn't simply say "That's ridicolous" and be done with it.

[Metahive]

Not really- I just figure that if it's as ridicolous as you say you should be able to refute it.

And repeat what a dozen posters on this very thread have already said? That continuously antagonizing lots of people doesn't make for a stable rule? That an exclusivist ideology like Nazism isn't much good for forging a lasting empire?

You know what? The Total War series isn't accurately representing real life, shock of all shocks! Conquered provinces don't become automatically pacified after a set amount of years.

Read a book.

AS I SAID, I was NOT taking sides on the issue. It's just a point of principle- even if the person you're dealing with is claiming that 1 + 1 = 3, if you have neither a logical nor empirical argument to use against him you shouldn't simply say "That's ridicolous" and be done with it.

Don't fucking lie. Dummyass got his his dummyass handed to him by so many posters, yet you act is if their posts don't exist.

Go play in traffic, Nazi-wanker.

[phongn]

I don't think you know very much about insurgencies and counter-insurgencies. You have Germany going on a reign of terror that is guaranteed to ensure that the hearts and minds of the population have turned against Germany, permanently. More force isn't going to stop the resistance. Germany has to actually offer something to the populace that's a better alternative, and Nazi Germany is institutionally incapable of doing so.

The US government? They'll most likely to begin a campaign of pressure and containment (see: prewar Japan, postwar Soviet Union, etc.) As before, the existence of the German superstate is a serious threat to the United States. It is a militarist state that is going on a reign of terror across the continent. The US citizenry might not want to go to war, but they certainly aren't going to like Germany. Why do you think relations will be normalized? And as for the Communist threat ... that panic comes out of a very different situation in OTL. Try again.

Finally, no, the war doesn't end in 1944 with no invasion of Germany. You can't persuade Hitler not to achieve his dream of lebensraum. The Eastern Front is going to start and it will end with the destruction of the Nazi state. Similarly, you somehow think that you can persuade Hitler not to do the Holocaust. Good luck with that (also, hint, Israel doesn't exist at this point in time).

But lets just assume by fiat that the British Empire accepts peace, there's no war with the Soviet Union, the United States isn't entering the European Front, etc. Then what? The world's largest economies are hostile to Germany and will seek to contain it. Germany cannot compete in any way: they are too inefficient, too incompetent and too murderous. The rest of the world is not going to give Germany an inch.

[Lord Revan]

The main problem with rule of fear is that people MUST fear you in order to funtion, if the people don't fear you (or simply hate you more) no amount of force is gonna maintain your rule.

You say that nazis would so ruthless that this wouldn't happen, I guess that's why there was no german resistance for the nazi goverment, no wait there was, several resistance movements in fact though there was no unified resistance like in other countries and certain Admiral Canaris was relaying info to the british cause he hated the nazis, but he some unimportant posting like head of the german military intelligence.

and that's was just by checking Wikipedia, I'm sure actual experts on history could give more and better examples of why Nazi Germany was not nor couldn't be a force that could somehow keep an "empire" where most of the people are hostile to them intact.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Im saying what would happen. And I seriously doubt any resistance movements in Western Europe would get any worse. Especially since a hefty chunk, if not most of them, were included in the whole Aryan spiel.


The French partisan effort was essentially worthless in terms of hard economic and strategic damage they personally caused. And the Nazis treated Western Europe differently than the other conquest. Part of the racism.


It doesnt change Tito's fate and that of his cohorts. They are finished by 1950. Done. Over with. As would any major partisan group in the Balkans be. And besides, unless they can get to the Industrial Core, they cant do much damage anyway.


This isnt even remotely comparable to Vietnam or Afghanistan, especially since neither of those conflicts were about annexxation and absorbtion of territory. And neither of those nations were fighting a power with the willingness to expend the kind of manpower, money, and blood like the Nazis. And neither of them were fighting a power wanting the territory for itself, and not some puppet govt. And no, the USSR doesnt count. The only way it would be comparable is if they demobilized half their forces in Eastern Europe and plopped them down in Afghanistan with orders summed up to shoot them if they resist. And the USSR didnt have the borders manned and defended, like the Nazis will. Its just an entirely different situation.

Its patently stupid to think that a partisan group will be effective in throwing out a polity like Nazi Germany, especially on their own. Theyll just get slaughtered until the people realize that the only option for self-preservation and existence period is cooperation.


Its why basically the most, if not only, realistic part of the Draka series involves the Russians helping the Draka. Because they would like to EXIST, regardless of the state of this existence as slaves, its still EXISTENCE.



So Tito ambles along, and as the Nazis get tired of the bullshit and begin brutal reprisals, he WILL draw in more receuits.

At first. Then the supplies run low, and the Nazis park an Army Group in Yugoslavia, and its starting to get real. Then Tito starts losing people, both because they are among those killed in the general reprisals, and because people dont want to see their own town annhilated. Then he gets caught or he flees, because everybody has begun to realize that if the bullshit continues at this rate, there wont be many people left.


So they choose survival. Because there is no rescue coming. And its the goddamn Nazis. They dont respond too kindly, especially when they arent distracted.



And most of Nazi Europe's GDP will be from Germany, France, Italy, the Low Countries, and the Nordic countries. They wont care about the relative poverty of the Balkans, except for maybe a few favorites.


And normal trade most likely will resume. Because its gotten rather pointless and the American people demand it.

[CaptHawkeye]

Stalin kept the Soviet Union in a state of complete terror during his reign. It functioned, not well, but their was never any real threat of a coup or overthrow once Trotsky was ejected from the country. Barring the invasion Stalin never faced an enemy which came close to unseating him. His tenacious spying and ruthless suppression of dissent prevented the organization of his enemies, and even his friends were played against one another to prevent them from becoming too powerful or popular.

However, once Stalin's health started to fail his advisers were slowly able to wield more power by keeping him the dark. Though he never lost all control, he was increasingly unable to run the Soviet state through his usual means as his dexterity failed. So I guess the conclusion one can draw from Stalin's reign is that, with enough selfishness, raw brutality, and some luck, it is possible to run a state through nothing but raw fear. Though that doesn't mean it'll last for very long.

[Stark]

I don't think its worth trying to get through to someone who just reposts their alt-history fic as fact over and over.

[CaptHawkeye]

It was aimed at Lord Revan. I don't even acknowledge DH's existence at this point.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Explain how there are insurgents when the population is no longer present. Explain why America would continue to embargo the Nazi state. This wouldnt be a Nazi Regime thats been rightfully vilified for its crimes, this would be a Nazi refime thats basically been saying everyone of Germanic and Nordic blood is part of the glorious master race, even if they are Americans. This would be a Nazi Germany that has made an explicit point of publically and nighpermanently trying to be friends and peaceful wjth the US and has almost continously applied for peace with the UK.



Why would the American people of this time period, hate the Nazis and support an economic embargo against them?


The USSR? Stalin loved the idea of Capitalist killing each other. It wont be until the peace happens that he might get worried. But then what? Thats 3-4 extra years of saying that the Nazis are our allies. You think Stalin would care about the fate of the Poles outside his territory? Or literally anybody? He will be calling what Germany owes though. Which is abpittance to what their national budget is.


Congress answers directly to its electorate. And with a Nazi regime that has been basically pro(white) American, why would they be massively hated? Hell, the message against Black people in particular wont fall on deaf ears. nd not just in the South, afterall, the North has had its fair share of race riots, which were relatively recent. And while the KKK has fallen thanks to...a certain rapist bastard, their ideas are still very much alive.



Remember, half the reason racism was lost its popularity was disgust at the Nazis and the fact that they lost. Half the reason that racism is gone is revulsion at the Nazis.

Wheres the revulsion? Theyve won the fights they picked in this ATL. They have proven themselves to an extent.



Thats the scariest part that Nazi Victorious timelines forget. It legitimizes their beleifs and their cause. It means they said in their hearts that they are superior to all, and they made it happen. Instead of them losing and being exposed for the evil that they were, they WIN. Thats different than America or the USSR winning. Because the entire Nazi cult is based on the idea of the Master Race beating all comers.


Thats horrifying. Especially due to the demographics in America at the time...

[Dominarch's Hope]

Stalin kept the Soviet Union in a state of complete terror during his reign. It functioned, not well, but their was never any real threat of a coup or overthrow once Trotsky was ejected from the country. Barring the invasion Stalin never faced an enemy which came close to unseating him. His tenacious spying and ruthless suppression of dissent prevented the organization of his enemies, and even his friends were played against one another to prevent them from becoming too powerful or popular.

However, once Stalin's health started to fail his advisers were slowly able to wield more power by keeping him the dark. Though he never lost all control, he was increasingly unable to run the Soviet state through his usual means as his dexterity failed. So I guess the conclusion one can draw from Stalin's reign is that, with enough selfishness, raw brutality, and some luck, it is possible to run a state through nothing but raw fear. Though that doesn't mean it'll last for very long.

Lasted for decades after his death. And Communism was about being a superior and equal economic system. Once it became clear that all that had really happened was a new aristocracy had occured, it was done.


Although what really killed it was Gorbachev being stupid.