[Spiderman Fanboy] 15 and it shows

[Spiderman Fanboy]

It's my opinion in Star Wars that the Sith were not inherently evil, and that the Galactic Empire wasn't that bad of a government, that the rebels were waging an unjust war, and, yes, that, why were Darth Vader and the Emperor and the Empire so evil?

The Sith/Imperial atrocities were a retaliation to the rebels and to the Jedi.

The deaths of Owen and Beru Lars and the destruction of Alderaan seem to be just provoked by the rebels. If the rebels hadn't stolen the death star plans, the stormtroopers wouldn't have killed Luke's aunt and uncle. And, yes, the Death Star was built in order to keep the local star systems in line, which was to prevent them from rebelling. Would Alderaan have been destroyed if there was no rebel alliance?

However, if people had just obeyed the Empire's laws and rules, then they never would have used the death star.

Regardless of Alderaan, what about the DS2 in ROTJ? It was fully operational towards the end of the film, and, from the deleted scenes, it was going to blow up Endor, and it was also going to destroy Chandrila and Mon Calamari, those two planets. But would they have destroyed/attempted to destry any of those other planets if there was no rebellion? No.

As for Order 66 and the destruction of the Jedi Order (which there were thousands of Jedi), was obviously a very horrible atrocity, but, really? Aren't the rebels just seeking revenge for that? Revenge and retaliation that's done just for the sake of retaliation against evil, is, an evil act to me. How does revenge fix anything? How does an atrocity that had happened in the past affect the lives of the trillions of imperial citizens?

Also, Order 66 never would have happened if the Jedi had never persecuted the Sith, simply for just being a Sith. It's my conclusion that the Sith are not inheritley evil.

The Jedi also seemed to be religiously persecuting Sidious. Now, some would argue that the Sith did evil things because of their beliefs in hatred and anger. However, the Jedi had disagreed with the Sith's philosophical differences about the Force. Palpatine's conversations with Anakin during the scene where he reveals that he knows the darkside prove this to be true.

The Jedi didn't just want to get rid of Sidious because he started the Clone Wars, which was a very evil act for political power (the Sith do some evil stuff because of their motivations about power), they opposed him because he held a different religion than the Jedi did;their views on the Force, which had no effect on the trillions of Imperial civilians.

Do the quadrillions of Imperial citizens even know/care what a Sith Lord is? No.

Padme had refused to join Vader/Anakin because of his supposed "evilness", and she had no idea about Alderaan or the death star, either. And neither did Mace Windu. And yet he had made comments about "the oppression of the Sith".

[Stark]

Why is it fair to say that blowing up Alderaan and killing billions was 'provoked' by the rebels, but not fair to say that the rebellion was 'provoked' by the Galactic Empire's reigme?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Why is it fair to say that blowing up Alderaan and killing billions was 'provoked' by the rebels, but not fair to say that the rebellion was 'provoked' by the Galactic Empire's reigme?

I love these intense discussions, BTW.

We aren't really explain why exactly the Sith are so evil. Remember, it wasn't just the Death Star. The Jedi also didn't get along with them because of their different views of the Force. Not to mention Padme's refusal to join Vader and the mention of Sith opression by Mace Windu, the latter of which we aren't really explained at all.

What's your point, exactly?

So, Alderaan's destruction would have happened anyways? Is that what you're trying to say?

Also, I don't get what you mean by the Galactic Empire's regime. This is a very debated SW topic. Many SW fans have posed this question, because for the most part, the Imperial citizens seemed to be happy with the Empire. The cheers during the ROTS coronation scene heavily imply that.

[Stark]

Actually, I was mocking you.

By saying 'its okay to kill billions of innocent people because their leaders support a terrorist organisation', you make people wonder why it was okay to provoke that terrorist organisation to start with. Would Alderaan have supported the rebellion if the Empire was lovely and they were just a bunch of halfassed mountain boys who didn't want to pay taxes?

Maybe - going out on a limb here - the willingness to rule through fear and mass-murder highlights that the Empire had leaders with dubious ethics.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Actually, I was mocking you.

By saying 'its okay to kill billions of innocent people because their leaders support a terrorist organisation', you make people wonder why it was okay to provoke that terrorist organisation to start with. Would Alderaan have supported the rebellion if the Empire was lovely and they were just a bunch of halfassed mountain boys who didn't want to pay taxes?

Maybe - going out on a limb here - the willingness to rule through fear and mass-murder highlights that the Empire had leaders with dubious ethics.

You're basically admitting yourself that the rebels were a terrorist organization.

But what about the Sith, in general? Mace Windu's comment about the Sith opression? And Padme's refusal to join Vader/Anakin, who had disliked the death star being used?

[Stark]

No, I'm asking you to explain how it's ok for a not-evil organisation to kill billions because of xyz cause, when the cause of xyz is their own killing and oppression. You are saying 'if you do something evil, but there is a reason, its ok' without following that line of thinking any further. If the rebels were terrorists, what were their reasons? What was their program? Is it more or less ethical or oppressive or violent than the Empire?

You can't just handwave away the slaughter of billions of civilians by a power mad government with weapons of mass destruction because THEY HAD A REASON.

[lPeregrine]

If the rebels hadn't stolen the death star plans, the stormtroopers wouldn't have killed Luke's aunt and uncle.

Yeah, those evil rebels, forcing the stormtroopers to kill innocent people who just happened to have the misfortune of buying the wrong droids. The poor stormtroopers just had no choice, they would have loved to just stop by and have a beer with Luke's family, but the rebels forced them to suffer the terrible burden of having to commit senseless acts of murder. Really, it's the stormtroopers who are the real victims, and the heroes of the story.

PS: even if you want to argue that Luke's family committed a crime in buying the droids a government that isn't evil has things like due process, criminal courts, etc. Only an evil government skips the whole "arrest them and charge them with a crime" step and goes straight to summary execution.

[Lord Revan]

When talking about were sith so bad, well it depends are you talking about the orginal sith species, the purebloods (who dispite their name are sith/human hybrids) or members of the Sith Order.

however the Sith Empire fell several times due to infighting within the Sith Order, this infighting due to lust of power even when it was clearly hurting the Sith Empire was the reason for both versions of the rule of two.

Then there's the fact that slavery was legal in the Sith/Galactic Empire (it wasn't legal within the Galactic Republic), then specism with some incarnations of the Sith Empire (and the Galactic Empire as well) and the fact that with exception of the Galactic Empire non-force users were essentially second class citizens.

EDIT:Spidey you're not making a good argument as to why the Empire/Sith should be considered not-evil, what you're making is sad attempts at handwaving the clear evil acts of the Empire and they're not working

[Spiderman Fanboy]

If the rebels hadn't stolen the death star plans, the stormtroopers wouldn't have killed Luke's aunt and uncle.

Yeah, those evil rebels, forcing the stormtroopers to kill innocent people who just happened to have the misfortune of buying the wrong droids. The poor stormtroopers just had no choice, they would have loved to just stop by and have a beer with Luke's family, but the rebels forced them to suffer the terrible burden of having to commit senseless acts of murder. Really, it's the stormtroopers who are the real victims, and the heroes of the story.

PS: even if you want to argue that Luke's family committed a crime in buying the droids a government that isn't evil has things like due process, criminal courts, etc. Only an evil government skips the whole "arrest them and charge them with a crime" step and goes straight to summary execution.

There were about a million people on the first death star. Those droids had plans that would kill hundreds of thousands of imperials, first of all.

Second of all, yes, the killings of Owen and Beru Lars were evil war crimes, obviously. I make no attempt to justify their executions that Darth Vader had ordered. The Empire did commit an evil act, a war crime.

But that doesn't justify the rebel's cause in general. So what? The Allied Powers committed war crimes too, that doesn't make the Axis Powers good at all.

You judge each other by their overall actions, not by some war crimes that they did. America did some war crimes too.

I don't think that Obi Wan Kenobi, Mace Windu, and Padme even knew about that. That would make the Jedi/rebel cause rather some kind of self fullfilling prophecy.

[Stark]

Lucky then that Obi Wan, Mace Windu and Padme have nothing to do with the rebellion. The rebellion was (apparently) run by politicians at the highest level and senior military leaders, people you'd expect to be a bit more informed than some guy literally living in a cave.

You can question what the ultimate aim of the rebellion was without saying things like 'its totally not evil to kill billions at the whim of someone who wrote a book called RULE THROUGH ATROCITY AND TERROR'.

[lPeregrine]

There were about a million people on the first death star. Those droids had plans that would kill hundreds of thousands of imperials, first of all.

How does the potential death of soldiers in a war justify murdering civilians when that act of murder does absolutely nothing to prevent the military defeat? Luke's family had nothing to do with the rebellion, a simple "here's a million credits for that new R2 unit you bought" would have solved the problem easily. The only way killing them makes sense is as an act of bloody retribution and a warning to anyone else that even the slightest treason will be punished with death. And guess what, that makes the Empire evil.

I make no attempt to justify their executions that Darth Vader had ordered.

You did. Read your own words:

The deaths of Owen and Beru Lars and the destruction of Alderaan seem to be just provoked by the rebels. If the rebels hadn't stolen the death star plans, the stormtroopers wouldn't have killed Luke's aunt and uncle.

But that doesn't justify the rebel's cause in general.

That alone doesn't justify it, but it certainly helps to. They represent a clear Imperial policy of rule through fear, with summary executions of anyone suspected of rebel activity. Is it really that hard for you to see why a government with that policy is evil and opposition to it is justified?

You judge each other by their overall actions, not by some war crimes that they did. America did some war crimes too.

That's exactly what we're doing, judging their overall actions. We aren't talking about a random act of murder committed by a rogue soldier, we're talking about a direct order from the top of the chain of command to implement a policy of rule through fear and violent punishment for any perceived lack of loyalty.

I don't think that Obi Wan Kenobi, Mace Windu, and Padme even knew about that.

That specific act? No. The general pattern that the specific act is part of? Yes.

[Lord Revan]

While the Death Star might have million on people on it, but it's a MILITARY target, where as Alderaan was a CIVILIAN target.

Was the loss of life with the destruction of the Death Star Tragic, yes.

Was the destruction of the Death Star a warcrime, no the Death Star was a legimate target being a military base/ship.

Was the destruction of Alderaan a warcrime, HELL YEAH it was civilian planet with little to no military assets and as such was NOT a legimate target in and off itself.

I'm terribly sorry but death of soldiers during a war (they knew the risks when they signed up), does not compare to anyway to wanton killing of billions of civilians.

and that's not even getting to the other attrocities of imperial rule.

The Alliance to Restore the Republic (to use the official name) is not without it's faults, but Spidey if you want me to listen to you, you must give a better argument then "The Empire is just misunderstood and it's rebels that are the true villians", which is essentially what you're doing, but then Archanids don't have brains so I suppose that would be too complex a task for you.

[RogueIce]

In the first movie, Darth Sidious, a Sith Lord, has the Trade Federation blockade a world over a tax dispute, try to murder the Chancellor's ambassadors who arrived to mediate the dispute, had the Federation invade that world and then ordered them to murder the Queen.

All to provoke a crisis to elevate himself to power.

For the second and third movies he essentially creates a bloody galactic civil war the likes of which had not been seen for over a thousand years and keep it going, all so he can cement that power and in the process murder every last Jedi, adult and child.

Yep, he's not evil at all. No sir.

Was the Galactic Empire evil? As an institution, hell yes with Palpatine at the top. He let a guy like Tarkin blow up Alderaan as an example for crying out loud. Vader could have stopped him if the Emperor gave half a shit but he didn't. And Vader also didn't speak up when Tarkin outright said that "fear will keep the local systems in line" and you'd think if the Emperor would have a problem with this, his right hand would mention that.

I don't think a government that's pretty much made "rule by fear" a matter of policy can be described as, well, not evil.

[Lord Revan]

*snip*

honestly Rogue I wouldn't expected someone who thinks destroying a military base is compareble with destroying a demilitarizied planet.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Lucky then that Obi Wan, Mace Windu and Padme have nothing to do with the rebellion. The rebellion was (apparently) run by politicians at the highest level and senior military leaders, people you'd expect to be a bit more informed than some guy literally living in a cave.

You can question what the ultimate aim of the rebellion was without saying things like 'its totally not evil to kill billions at the whim of someone who wrote a book called RULE THROUGH ATROCITY AND TERROR'.

The rebellion would still rebel about Palps and Anakin/Vader even if they had no death star, as evident by politicians/senators forming the rebellion in the deleted ROTS scenes, long before they had even know about a death star.

And, besides, Vader/Anakin didn't really like the death star all that much. He wasn't impressed with it.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

While the Death Star might have million on people on it, but it's a MILITARY target, where as Alderaan was a CIVILIAN target.

Was the loss of life with the destruction of the Death Star Tragic, yes.

Was the destruction of the Death Star a warcrime, no the Death Star was a legimate target being a military base/ship.

Was the destruction of Alderaan a warcrime, HELL YEAH it was civilian planet with little to no military assets and as such was NOT a legimate target in and off itself.

I'm terribly sorry but death of soldiers during a war (they knew the risks when they signed up), does not compare to anyway to wanton killing of billions of civilians.

and that's not even getting to the other attrocities of imperial rule.

The Alliance to Restore the Republic (to use the official name) is not without it's faults, but Spidey if you want me to listen to you, you must give a better argument then "The Empire is just misunderstood and it's rebels that are the true villians", which is essentially what you're doing, but then Archanids don't have brains so I suppose that would be too complex a task for you.

I tend to view the destruction of the death star as kinda like hiroshima and nagasaki. However, in SW, unlike in real life wars, people have too much of a war is glorious kinda attitude.

OK, I'll give a better and more detailed arguement to you.

Yes, I agree with you that the deaths of soldiers doesn't compare to the deaths of billions of civilians. The death star's destruction was a legitimate military target, so destroying it was not a war crime. Destroying the two death stars did not harm anybody in and of itself, but the fact that the military personnel were on it was what killed them. The rebels could have destroyed the two death stars, while still allowing the other minor bad guys to escape, or, more specifically, to surrender to them, or even to join them. In the EU, some of the stormies were drafted.

And, besides, in the Darth Plageuis book, Sidious and Plageuis had imbalanced the Force by using Sith meditation powers, or something along those lines. The Prophecy of the Chosen One (which Jedi told that prophecy originally-please help me with some EU information on this one!), was about a Jedi (aka Anakin Skywalker) that would basically kill the Sith, in order to bring balance to the Force.

You see here? The Jedi didn't want to destroy the Sith because they were dictators or they used the death stars or because they commited atrocities. It was because of their different views/practices of the Force.

[Stark]

Since the Death Star was under construction from the get-go and the rebellion was already in progress (and indeed a major concern) before ANH, that's a dubious claim. There was political opposition to Palpatine declaring himself god-king eternal, but that's not particularly surprising: there was political opposition to taxes. Its pretty clear that Leia and Tarkin's primary concern was control and fear, and a strong militarist government usually doesn't seen top generals defecting against the reigime.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Since the Death Star was under construction from the get-go and the rebellion was already in progress (and indeed a major concern) before ANH, that's a dubious claim. There was political opposition to Palpatine declaring himself god-king eternal, but that's not particularly surprising: there was political opposition to taxes. Its pretty clear that Leia and Tarkin's primary concern was control and fear, and a strong militarist government usually doesn't seen top generals defecting against the reigime.

How? What's a dubious claim that I made?

I don't get the rest of what you're trying to say.

Did Mace Windu, Qui Gon Jinn, Obi Wan Kenobi, and Padme, like the Sith at all? Absolutley not! Because why? Because they considered the Sith to be evil. But this was long before the Sith had ever gotten their death star. They had no idea about that.

It was because of their different views/practices of the Force. And, something about the opression of the Sith.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sidious/Anakin were the only two Sith that ever had the death stars.

This thread is also about the Sith being evil in general, and some specific Sith, such as Palps and Vader. This entire thread is dedicated to debating the good vs. evil. morality of the good guys and the bad guys in Star Wars.

Not to mention Anakin/Vader's personal dislike of the death star. Emperor Vader hypothethically wouldnt have used the death star.

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs7/i/2005/2 ... rtheus.jpg

[lPeregrine]

Not to mention Anakin/Vader's personal dislike of the death star. Emperor Vader hypothethically wouldnt have used the death star.

Err, what? You realize that Vader's "dislike" of the death star was condescension, right? IOW, "don't be so proud of your silly little gun that you get any ideas, I'll still choke you to death".

[Stark]

Trying to recast your hand waving away horrible crimes as people misjudging the Sith is ridiculous. If you want to talk about the sith, stay focused. It's not impossible to cast their organization (ps a terrorist organization of traitors just like the rebellion) as less evil that it is obviously intended to be, but saying its totally not institutionally the empires fault they did bad things is pretty dumb.

[atg]

To follow on from what RogueIce said: the Darth Plagueis novel plainly shows that the Sith actively destabilized the Republic, architected civil warfare in Republic systems and terrorist attacks on innocents, arranged for the downfall and murders of political opponents, performed medical experiments on sentient beings against their will to a) subvert their will (mind control) and b) repeatedly kill and revive people, assisted crime lords, arranged for the invasion of Naboo. All to put themselves in power.

Nothing evil there clearly

[DaveJB]

Yes, I agree with you that the deaths of soldiers doesn't compare to the deaths of billions of civilians. The death star's destruction was a legitimate military target, so destroying it was not a war crime. Destroying the two death stars did not harm anybody in and of itself, but the fact that the military personnel were on it was what killed them. The rebels could have destroyed the two death stars, while still allowing the other minor bad guys to escape, or, more specifically, to surrender to them, or even to join them.

Leaving aside the fact that this argument was deconstructed by the first Clerks movie all the way back in 1994, you forget that the two Death Stars were about to destroy Yavin IV and the Sanctuary Moon respectively. Even if the Rebels had demanded that the Death Star and its crew surrender to them, Tarkin wouldn't have believed they could destroy the Death Star (hell, even most of the Rebels didn't believe it could be done, and Tarkin ignored the warnings of his own subordinate, Chief Bast), Jerjerrod was beyond caring what happened to him by that point, and in either case it would have just given the Death Star the time it needed to destroy its target.

Besides, I might be wrong since it's been many years since I read either the ROTJ novelization or The Truce at Bakura, but I seem to recall that prior to the DS2's destruction, the Rebels did broadcast an offer of amnesty to any lower-ranking Imperials that surrendered themselves.

[RogueIce]

Did Mace Windu, Qui Gon Jinn, Obi Wan Kenobi, and Padme, like the Sith at all? Absolutley not! Because why? Because they considered the Sith to be evil. But this was long before the Sith had ever gotten their death star. They had no idea about that.

It was because of their different views/practices of the Force. And, something about the opression of the Sith.

Darth Sidious, the Sith Lord of the galaxy at the time, engineered a civil war just to get himself into power and oh BTW genocide the Jedi while he was at it. How is that not evil? I pointed it out before so here it is again.

And that's just from what the movies showed us. Now granted I've never gotten into the whole "Really Old Republic" stuff in the EU so I don't know how they potrayed the Sith, but if it's anything like the 'subtlety' of how the EU typically portrayed the Galactic Empire I'm pretty sure the old Sith were kicking puppies while twirling their moustaches as well. IE: doing some evil shit.

EDIT: On second thought I'm taking out the second part of this so as to focus on the "are Sith evil" question. I'd like to see Fanboy address this with some actual counterargument other than a vague "point of view" thing.

[Lord Revan]

actually from what I've read/seen the Old Sith Empire's very, some were cartoonishly evil, other are more sudtle about it, they're all evil though (Brotherhood of Darkness Sith Empire and the TOR Sith Empire seem to be at least capable of being semi-decent if that's needed)

[Metahive]

Tarkin didn't blow up Alderaan because of its ties with the rebellion, he blew it up because and I quote, "Dantooine is too remote to make an
effective demonstration.". Alderaan was destroyed for convenience' sake, just for the effect.

Yeah, no cookie here, pal. If that's the attitude that makes you a grand-moff in the Empire, then the Empire is rotten, it's as easy as that.