[Spiderman Fanboy] 15 and it shows

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Tarkin didn't blow up Alderaan because of its ties with the rebellion, he blew it up because and I quote, "Dantooine is too remote to make an
effective demonstration.". Alderaan was destroyed for convenience' sake, just for the effect.

Yeah, no cookie here, pal. If that's the attitude that makes you a grand-moff in the Empire, then the Empire is rotten, it's as easy as that.

Tarkin did blow up Alderaan because of the rebellion. It was destroyed in order to keep the local star systems in line so that they wouldn't oppose the Emperor.

And, the EU only proves this to a T.

Quoted straight from Wookipedia.

"The near extermination of the Jedi Order cleared the way for Palpatine—power-hungry Senator and Sith Lord—to seize control of the Republic, declare himself Emperor, and usher in a fearsome, totalitarian regime. But even with the dreaded Darth Vader to enforce his sinister will, the threat of rebellion still looms. And the Emperor knows that only abject fear—and the ability to punish dissent with devastating consequences—can ensure his unchallenged control of the galaxy. Enter ambitious and ruthless government official Wilhuff Tarkin, architect of the Emperor's terrifying dream come true."

[Ahriman238]

If we go with the "Really Really Old Republic stuff" the history of the Sith goes something like this:

People discover Force powers, the Jedi study religion and philosophy with the Caamasi to learn to wield their powers responsibly while some others go nuts trying to dominate everyone else. The Jedi rise against these proto-Sith and banish their asses.

The proto-Sith meet the actual Sith, a warrior race, and conquer them, along the way picking up the Sith language and culture and creating a ruling caste of force-wielders.

A thousand years pass and the Sith Empire comes to rival the infant Republic in size and power when explorers from the Republic accidently make first contact. The Sith immediately move to conquer the Republic and millions die in the Great Hyperspace War.

More time passes, a Jedi studying the Sith and Korriban (tombworld of the Sith Emperors) is turned to the dark side by force ghosts. At the same time the Krath, bored nobles with force powers who dabble with the Dark Side, decide they want more power and massacre thousands of Jedi at a peaceful conference. The Krath join up with the resurgent Sith to conquer the galaxy, and millions die before they're put down.

I don't remember the precise origins of the war that ended on Ruusan with Darth Bane as the only surviving Sith and creating the Rule of Two. I do know they tried to conquer the Republic and... wait for it... millions of innocent people died!

Is a common thread becoming apparent here? Can the Jedi not be concerned about the apparently resurgent Sith and allegations that a Sith Lord is in a position of power? Especially considering said Sith Lord instigated an interstellar war that killed millions of innocent people (again) so he could slaughter the Jedi and institute totalitarian rule?


If we go on the EU, the Empire practiced slavery and/or genocide of aliens on a mass scale. In fact, the DS I was built using mostly slave labor. But you know what? We don't need the EU. JUst going by the films, the Empire a.) was an autocratic state that specifically dissolved it's democratically elected Senate, counting on fear of reprisals to control the population b.) destroyed an entire planet's worth of innocent people as a weapons test and demonstration that they could and would destroy planets because a couple of people who oppose them called it home and c.) allowed summary execution of military officers and civilians alike.


Amusingly, there's a line about this in the ROTS novelization. When the Jedi come to arrest Palpatine he says that even if he were a Sith Lord, the Republic allows freedom of religion. It was right before the "So it's treason then" line. But he's clearly playing to the camera, in the book it's made clear that Palpatine is recording everything right up until that line and his pulling his lightsaber, so he can present compelling evidence of the Jedi's treason to the Senate later.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

If we go with the "Really Really Old Republic stuff" the history of the Sith goes something like this:

People discover Force powers, the Jedi study religion and philosophy with the Caamasi to learn to wield their powers responsibly while some others go nuts trying to dominate everyone else. The Jedi rise against these proto-Sith and banish their asses.

The proto-Sith meet the actual Sith, a warrior race, and conquer them, along the way picking up the Sith language and culture and creating a ruling caste of force-wielders.

A thousand years pass and the Sith Empire comes to rival the infant Republic in size and power when explorers from the Republic accidently make first contact. The Sith immediately move to conquer the Republic and millions die in the Great Hyperspace War.

More time passes, a Jedi studying the Sith and Korriban (tombworld of the Sith Emperors) is turned to the dark side by force ghosts. At the same time the Krath, bored nobles with force powers who dabble with the Dark Side, decide they want more power and massacre thousands of Jedi at a peaceful conference. The Krath join up with the resurgent Sith to conquer the galaxy, and millions die before they're put down.

I don't remember the precise origins of the war that ended on Ruusan with Darth Bane as the only surviving Sith and creating the Rule of Two. I do know they tried to conquer the Republic and... wait for it... millions of innocent people died!

Is a common thread becoming apparent here? Can the Jedi not be concerned about the apparently resurgent Sith and allegations that a Sith Lord is in a position of power? Especially considering said Sith Lord instigated an interstellar war that killed millions of innocent people (again) so he could slaughter the Jedi and institute totalitarian rule?


If we go on the EU, the Empire practiced slavery and/or genocide of aliens on a mass scale. In fact, the DS I was built using mostly slave labor. But you know what? We don't need the EU. JUst going by the films, the Empire a.) was an autocratic state that specifically dissolved it's democratically elected Senate, counting on fear of reprisals to control the population b.) destroyed an entire planet's worth of innocent people as a weapons test and demonstration that they could and would destroy planets because a couple of people who oppose them called it home and c.) allowed summary execution of military officers and civilians alike.


Amusingly, there's a line about this in the ROTS novelization. When the Jedi come to arrest Palpatine he says that even if he were a Sith Lord, the Republic allows freedom of religion. It was right before the "So it's treason then" line. But he's clearly playing to the camera, in the book it's made clear that Palpatine is recording everything right up until that line and his pulling his lightsaber, so he can present compelling evidence of the Jedi's treason to the Senate later.

The Force had went out of its way to create a Chosen one to destroy the Sith, aka, Anakin Skywalker. Do you really think that the Jedi would allow freedom of religion? No, they would kill a Sith just for being a Sith. In Darth Plageuis we learn that the Sith had imbalanced the Force by using their Sith meditation. Also, it's mentioned that the ability of the Jedi to use their force powers had diminished, due to the Sith imbalancing the Force by using the darkside.

Palpatine's conversation with Anakin in the Chancellor's office only prove this, the Jedi fought the Sith due to different views/practices on the Force. They would kill Sidious even if he hadn't started the Clone Wars, just for being a Sith. That's not freedom of religion. That's religious persecution.

So, from my POV (no pun intended) the Sith are not inheritley evil, or I guess so.

And, also, my brother was absolutley right on this one. The Clone Wars that Sidious had started. Well, my brother had told me that "the separatists weren't really good villians, they didn't do anything".

Well, he couldn't have been more right. The Clone Wars was just been a droid army and a clone army on both sides. An endless army of droids and an endless army of clones. The average person (ie, meaning the civilians) living in the Galactic Republic wasn't even affected by the war at all. They had no stake in the outcome. Civilians were not harmed/effected by the Clone Wars. No civilians had been killed at all, and especially not thousands or millions or billions.

Just check out this video, from 30:02-33:50, proving that Sidious betraying the Republic by starting the Clone Wars wasn't really that big of a deal.

[Ahriman238]

The civilians killed by droids, or Grievous, or orbital bombardment would doubtlessly be thrilled to hear that the average person (meaning, I guess, wealthy and far from the frontlines) wasn't really affected by the war. Oh, sorry, did you not pay any attention to any of the books, comic books or televised media about the Clone Wars? For that matter, returning to the ROTS novelization, even the wealthy of Coruscant were touched by the war in the form of the Republic's shift into a militarized police state and increasing anti-alien prejudice.

I'm sorry, may I ask what video you are referring to? Only there are rather a lot of videos somewhere on the internet and a hint or two to narrow it down, perhaps even a link, would do wonders.

Neither I or nor Palpatine ever said the Jedi supported freedom of religion, he protested that the Republic practiced freedom of religion. The areas in which the Jedi and the Republic (particularly as represented by the Senate and Chancellor) differed being many and varied.

The Jedi would likely have arrested or killed Sidious because he was a member of an organization that killed massive amounts of innocent people, had supported the brutal occupation of Naboo, and was planning to kill massive amounts of people as part of a scheme to overthrow the elected government and become a galactic dictator. That's not religious persecution, that's common fucking sense! When someone achieves a position of power through deception and murder, he needs to be removed.

Though who knows what would have happened if Palpatine had been exposed to the Jedi before committing any crimes they could and should arrest him for? No one knows, because the Sith have consistently been the instigators of conflict for generations. Palpatine was not responding to Jedi aggression when he schemed to become the Chancellor, or to eliminate the Jedi. He was removing the greatest obstacle to his becoming sole ruler of the galaxy.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

The civilians killed by droids, or Grievous, or orbital bombardment would doubtlessly be thrilled to hear that the average person (meaning, I guess, wealthy and far from the frontlines) wasn't really affected by the war. Oh, sorry, did you not pay any attention to any of the books, comic books or televised media about the Clone Wars? For that matter, returning to the ROTS novelization, even the wealthy of Coruscant were touched by the war in the form of the Republic's shift into a militarized police state and increasing anti-alien prejudice.

I'm sorry, may I ask what video you are referring to? Only there are rather a lot of videos somewhere on the internet and a hint or two to narrow it down, perhaps even a link, would do wonders.

Neither I or nor Palpatine ever said the Jedi supported freedom of religion, he protested that the Republic practiced freedom of religion. The areas in which the Jedi and the Republic (particularly as represented by the Senate and Chancellor) differed being many and varied.

The Jedi would likely have arrested or killed Sidious because he was a member of an organization that killed massive amounts of innocent people, had supported the brutal occupation of Naboo, and was planning to kill massive amounts of people as part of a scheme to overthrow the elected government and become a galactic dictator. That's not religious persecution, that's common fucking sense! When someone achieves a position of power through deception and murder, he needs to be removed.

Though who knows what would have happened if Palpatine had been exposed to the Jedi before committing any crimes they could and should arrest him for? No one knows, because the Sith have consistently been the instigators of conflict for generations. Palpatine was not responding to Jedi aggression when he schemed to become the Chancellor, or to eliminate the Jedi. He was removing the greatest obstacle to his becoming sole ruler of the galaxy.

OK, here's the link. My bad, I forgot to send that link about that video that I was talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1MqksXm6Zs

BTW, there's no need to use vulgar language in the discussion.

[Ahriman238]

Oh Gosh Darn, have I gone and used a bad word? I do apologize for dragging the discussion to such lows.

What I meant to say is that arresting a man who has used murder and intimidation to gain high office, and is actively attempting to overthrow the duly elected government and murder anyone who objects seems prudent and wise, and I cannot find any grounds to fault the men who would do so even if they were predisposed to distrust the would-be tyrant on purely religious grounds, which I do not believe to be the case here.

I further hope to communicate my opinion, however ill-informed or crass, that the Jedi do not oppose the Sith purely from a religious or philosophical standpoint, but generally object to acts of treachery and murder on principle. Indeed, we can find many examples of Jedi taking issue on similar grounds with individuals and organizations completely unrelated to the Sith.

Again, I apologize for my crudity, and I do hope you can find it in your heart to look past it to perhaps address my doubtlessly hasty and ill-conceived points?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Oh Gosh Darn, have I gone and used a bad word? I do apologize for dragging the discussion to such lows.

What I meant to say is that arresting a man who has used murder and intimidation to gain high office, and is actively attempting to overthrow the duly elected government and murder anyone who objects seems prudent and wise, and I cannot find any grounds to fault the men who would do so even if they were predisposed to distrust the would-be tyrant on purely religious grounds, which I do not believe to be the case here.

I further hope to communicate my opinion, however ill-informed or crass, that the Jedi do not oppose the Sith purely from a religious or philosophical standpoint, but generally object to acts of treachery and murder on principle. Indeed, we can find many examples of Jedi taking issue on similar grounds with individuals and organizations completely unrelated to the Sith.

Again, I apologize for my crudity, and I do hope you can find it in your heart to look past it to perhaps address my doubtlessly hasty and ill-conceived points?

Can you please watch that Redlettermedia review, mainly that part about the Clone Wars, that I'd had said earlier had started around 30:00 into that youtube video's clip? It talks about the Clone Wars being a war with no consequences.

[Batman]

Since when is the opinion of some stupid internet critic or other relevant to an in universe discussion? Yeah, I think for this idiocy alone, vulgar language is very much called for. Not that I would call a single use of fuck all that vulgar by local standards.

[Stark]

This is the guy who hand waved the movie showing Tarkin blowing up Alderaan because he was there at the time and it would create the most fear and central control. I think that he's cherry picking sources is pretty obvious.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Since when is the opinion of some stupid internet critic or other relevant to an in universe discussion? Yeah, I think for this idiocy alone, vulgar language is very much called for. Not that I would call a single use of fuck all that vulgar by local standards.

It's literal meaning is very vulgar.

Ad honinem arguements, I sense in you. That internet critic had a very good point about the clone wars being a very small and insignificant event. Perhaps if you had even watched his video about his commentary from 30:00 onward you would know exactly what meesa talking about.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

This is the guy who hand waved the movie showing Tarkin blowing up Alderaan because he was there at the time and it would create the most fear and central control. I think that he's cherry picking sources is pretty obvious.

I don't feel like double posting, but here was my earlier post on that one, dude.

"Tarkin did blow up Alderaan because of the rebellion. Alderaan was destroyed in order to keep the local star systems in line so that they wouldn't oppose (edit, to rebel against) the Emperor.

And, the EU only proves this to a T.

Quoted straight from Wookipedia.

"The near extermination of the Jedi Order cleared the way for Palpatine—power-hungry Senator and Sith Lord—to seize control of the Republic, declare himself Emperor, and usher in a fearsome, totalitarian regime. But even with the dreaded Darth Vader to enforce his sinister will, the threat of rebellion still looms. And the Emperor knows that only abject fear—and the ability to punish dissent with devastating consequences—can ensure his unchallenged control of the galaxy. Enter ambitious and ruthless government official Wilhuff Tarkin, architect of the Emperor's terrifying dream come true."

[Ahriman238]

I have, and just returned. In the future, could you please put some kind of warning before linking to Redlettermedia? That voice should not be encountered unprepared.

Anyway, his whole case was that the war was handled poorly from a dramatic standpoint, because clones and droids are both disposable. Alright, conceded. But again, life goes on for the wealthy elite, the Chancellor goes to the opera and Padme has her fancy apartment, who exactly is surprised? His point (outside of pure film construction) is sort of undermined by his own mention of the Wookies who we saw fighting and dying for their homes. Clearly, the war did not touch them in any way. Just like the Naboo were clearly unaffected by being conquered by a droid army and herded into death camps in TPM.

Oh, and he complained that there were still plenty of sky cars on Coruscant, which somehow managed to not turn into a decayed husk of a city like it would if there was REALLY a war on. I do agree that the "average joe" who goes to work and doesn't make waves might be mostly or completely personally unaffected by the transition from democracy to dictatorship. This has ever been so.

The video proved nothing, certainly not that the Clone Wars were without consequences or that it was "no big deal" that Palpatine raised a rebellion against his own government, starting a pointless war specifically to kill or silence anyone objecting to his seizure of power. Watching his video is unlikely to magically convert people to your beliefs.

[Lord Revan]

This is the guy who hand waved the movie showing Tarkin blowing up Alderaan because he was there at the time and it would create the most fear and central control. I think that he's cherry picking sources is pretty obvious.

To be honest that and his hard-on for the empire and sith has been obvious for quite sometime, though I wonder why is he doing that, but I suppose we'll never know that.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

This is the guy who hand waved the movie showing Tarkin blowing up Alderaan because he was there at the time and it would create the most fear and central control. I think that he's cherry picking sources is pretty obvious.

To be honest that and his hard-on for the empire and sith has been obvious for quite sometime, though I wonder why is he doing that, but I suppose we'll never know that.

Can we please just have a normal discussion over here, instead of just flaming each other and making ad hominem attacks against each other? Please read my above double post.

And, the Galactic Empire had no plans of using the DS2 on any planets, except for those rebel planets. If there was no rebellion, the DS2 never would have blown up any planets.

For example, here's some evidence to support my position. The Death Star was built to keep people in line from rebelling. What else would they destroy planets for? And especially the DS2. They had no plans of destroying random planets just for the hell of it.

[Stark]

You're a lost cunt. He went there to pressure a political prisoner, and when the information he extracted through torture wasn't what he wanted, he blew Alderaan up anyway. He had a program of rule through fucking terror and followed it regardless of the facts... And you somehow spin this to EMPIRE NOT EVIL GUYS.

But it's ok because EU.

I think there's scope for discussion about attitudes towards the empire, but discussing them with someone who is clearly simply out to prove a preset attitude is useless.

All you other guys, lets hijack the thread. I want to ask how much of the Empire's oppression can be seen as part of the inherent program of Palpatine and how much is a response to rebel violence. While the emperor demonstrably wanted to eat all the souls in the galaxy, would the oppression and violence have been better or worse if the rebellion did not conduct it's attacks and gather it's defectors and malcontents?

[Lord Revan]

I have, and just returned. In the future, could you please put some kind of warning before linking to Redlettermedia? That voice should not be encountered unprepared.

Anyway, his whole case was that the war was handled poorly from a dramatic standpoint, because clones and droids are both disposable. Alright, conceded. But again, life goes on for the wealthy elite, the Chancellor goes to the opera and Padme has her fancy apartment, who exactly is surprised? His point (outside of pure film construction) is sort of undermined by his own mention of the Wookies who we saw fighting and dying for their homes. Clearly, the war did not touch them in any way. Just like the Naboo were clearly unaffected by being conquered by a droid army and herded into death camps in TPM.

Oh, and he complained that there were still plenty of sky cars on Coruscant, which somehow managed to not turn into a decayed husk of a city like it would if there was REALLY a war on. I do agree that the "average joe" who goes to work and doesn't make waves might be mostly or completely personally unaffected by the transition from democracy to dictatorship. This has ever been so.

The video proved nothing, certainly not that the Clone Wars were without consequences or that it was "no big deal" that Palpatine raised a rebellion against his own government, starting a pointless war specifically to kill or silence anyone objecting to his seizure of power. Watching his video is unlikely to magically convert people to your beliefs.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Palpatine design the Clone Wars so that there would be minimal damage wealthy Core Worlds where most of the films happen?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

You're a lost cunt. He went there to pressure a political prisoner, and when the information he extracted through torture wasn't what he wanted, he blew Alderaan up anyway. He had a program of rule through fucking terror and followed it regardless of the facts... And you somehow spin this to EMPIRE NOT EVIL GUYS.

But it's ok because EU.

I think there's scope for discussion about attitudes towards the empire, but discussing them with someone who is clearly simply out to prove a preset attitude is useless.

All you other guys, lets hijack the thread. I want to ask how much of the Empire's oppression can be seen as part of the inherent program of Palpatine and how much is a response to rebel violence. While the emperor demonstrably wanted to eat all the souls in the galaxy, would the oppression and violence have been better or worse if the rebellion did not conduct it's attacks and gather it's defectors and malcontents?

Just please read my previous post about the second death star, dude.

Would Alderaan have been destroyed if there was no rebellion? From what you're saying, I guess no.

What you're saying is like the moral equivalent to justfying the Axis Powers merely by stating some Allied War Crimes.

[Ahriman238]

"Tarkin did blow up Alderaan because of the rebellion. Alderaan was destroyed in order to keep the local star systems in line so that they wouldn't oppose (edit, to rebel against) the Emperor.

And, the EU only proves this to a T.

Quoted straight from Wookipedia.

"The near extermination of the Jedi Order cleared the way for Palpatine—power-hungry Senator and Sith Lord—to seize control of the Republic, declare himself Emperor, and usher in a fearsome, totalitarian regime. But even with the dreaded Darth Vader to enforce his sinister will, the threat of rebellion still looms. And the Emperor knows that only abject fear—and the ability to punish dissent with devastating consequences—can ensure his unchallenged control of the galaxy. Enter ambitious and ruthless government official Wilhuff Tarkin, architect of the Emperor's terrifying dream come true."

You realize your source calls the people you're defending ambitious, ruthless, sinister, and power-hungry, yes? While the Empire is "a fearsome totalitarian regime."

But let us examine the destruction of Alderran, being an act carried out by the highest officials short of the Emperor himself, and the culmination of 20 years of labor, I believe it serves as the best representation of the Empire's civil policy.

INT. DEATH STAR - CONTROL ROOM

Admiral Motti enters the quiet control room and bows before
Governor Tarkin, who stands before the huge wall screen
displaying a small green planet.

MOTTI
We've entered the Alderaan system.

Vader and two stormtroopers enter with Princess Leia. Her
hands are bound.

LEIA
Governor Tarkin, I should have
expected to find you holding Vader's
leash. I recognized your foul stench
when I was brought on board.

TARKIN
Charming to the last. You don't know
how hard I found it signing the order
to terminate your life!

LEIA
I surprised you had the courage to
take the responsibility yourself!

TARKIN
Princess Leia, before your execution
I would like you to be my guest at a
ceremony that will make this battle
station operational. No star system
will dare oppose the Emperor now.

LEIA
The more you tighten your grip,
Tarkin, the more star systems will
slip through your fingers.

TARKIN
Not after we demonstrate the power
of this station. In a way, you have
determined the choice of the planet
that'll be destroyed first. Since
you are reluctant to provide us with
the location of the Rebel base, I
have chosen to test this station's
destructive power... on your home
planet of Alderaan.

LEIA
No! Alderaan is peaceful. We have no
weapons. You can't possibly...

TARKIN
You would prefer another target? A
military target? Then name the system!

Tarkin waves menacingly toward Leia.

TARKIN
I grow tired of asking this. So it'll
be the last time. Where is the Rebel
base?

Leia overhears an intercom voice announcing the approach to
Alderaan.

LEIA
(softly)
Dantooine.

Leia lowers her head.

LEIA
They're on Dantooine.

TARKIN
There. You see Lord Vader, she can
be reasonable.
(addressing Motti)
Continue with the operation. You may
fire when ready.

LEIA
What?

TARKIN
You're far too trusting. Dantooine
is too remote to make an effective
demonstration. But don't worry. We
will deal with your Rebel friends
soon enough.

LEIA
No!

So... Tarkin threatens to destroy the planet full of civilians, unless Leia tells him where the secret Rebel base is. When she tells him (she lied, but he didn't know that at this point) he destroys her homeworld anyway, claiming that the Rebel base is too remote to make an effective demonstration of power (and ruthlessness.) Clearly an upstanding citizen in a moral society.

[Batman]

Since when is the opinion of some stupid internet critic or other relevant to an in universe discussion? Yeah, I think for this idiocy alone, vulgar language is very much called for. Not that I would call a single use of fuck all that vulgar by local standards.

It's literal meaning is very vulgar.

I see that even as simple a term as 'by local standards' is beyond your grasp. Not that 'fuck' is all that out of the ordinary in everyday conversation, really.

Ad honinem arguements, I sense in you. That internet critic had a very good point about the clone wars being a very small and insignificant event.

Yeah. I mean it totally didn't kill millions, resulted in the near eradication of the Jedi Order, or lead to the creation of the fucking Galactic Empire or anything. Small and insignificant event totally without consequences.

Perhaps if you had even watched his video about his commentary from 30:00 onward you would know exactly what meesa talking about.

I have, and I know, and you're full of it. The opinion of the guy doing the commentary is absolutely worthless, not to mention completely wrong. Which you would know if you actually had a brain and/or were actually conscious during the movies.

"The near extermination of the Jedi Order cleared the way for Palpatine—power-hungry Senator and Sith Lord—to seize control of the Republic, declare himself Emperor, and usher in a fearsome, totalitarian regime.

How, exactly, did that happen if the Clone Wars were small and insignificant? Oh, and 'fearsome, totalitarian regime'. Sounds rather evil to me.

But even with the dreaded Darth Vader to enforce his sinister will, the threat of rebellion still looms. And the Emperor knows that only abject fear—and the ability to punish dissent with devastating consequences—can ensure his unchallenged control of the galaxy. Enter ambitious and ruthless government official Wilhuff Tarkin, architect of the Emperor's terrifying dream come true."

Hrm. Still sounds evil somehow.

[Stark]

Just please read my previous post about the second death star, dude.

Would Alderaan have been destroyed if there was no rebellion? From what you're saying, I guess no.

What you're saying is like the moral equivalent to justfying the Axis Powers merely by stating some Allied War Crimes.

You are a lost cunt. Alderaan was destroyed to STRENGTHEN CENTRAL CONTROL. If there had been no rebellion, but the senate did not do what the Emperor wanted, they would still have blown up planets. The choice of Alderaan was just because Leia was aboard.

Did you miss the whole 'dissolve senate/fear controls galaxy now/fear of BEING BLOWN THE FUCK UP BY EVIL CUNTS' part?

Since the DS is shown being built in ROTS I think it and it's use are clearly parts of imperial strategy rebellion or not.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

"Tarkin did blow up Alderaan because of the rebellion. Alderaan was destroyed in order to keep the local star systems in line so that they wouldn't oppose (edit, to rebel against) the Emperor.

And, the EU only proves this to a T.

Quoted straight from Wookipedia.

"The near extermination of the Jedi Order cleared the way for Palpatine—power-hungry Senator and Sith Lord—to seize control of the Republic, declare himself Emperor, and usher in a fearsome, totalitarian regime. But even with the dreaded Darth Vader to enforce his sinister will, the threat of rebellion still looms. And the Emperor knows that only abject fear—and the ability to punish dissent with devastating consequences—can ensure his unchallenged control of the galaxy. Enter ambitious and ruthless government official Wilhuff Tarkin, architect of the Emperor's terrifying dream come true."

You realize your source calls the people you're defending ambitious, ruthless, sinister, and power-hungry, yes? While the Empire is "a fearsome totalitarian regime."

But let us examine the destruction of Alderran, being an act carried out by the highest officials short of the Emperor himself, and the culmination of 20 years of labor, I believe it serves as the best representation of the Empire's civil policy.

INT. DEATH STAR - CONTROL ROOM

Admiral Motti enters the quiet control room and bows before
Governor Tarkin, who stands before the huge wall screen
displaying a small green planet.

MOTTI
We've entered the Alderaan system.

Vader and two stormtroopers enter with Princess Leia. Her
hands are bound.

LEIA
Governor Tarkin, I should have
expected to find you holding Vader's
leash. I recognized your foul stench
when I was brought on board.

TARKIN
Charming to the last. You don't know
how hard I found it signing the order
to terminate your life!

LEIA
I surprised you had the courage to
take the responsibility yourself!

TARKIN
Princess Leia, before your execution
I would like you to be my guest at a
ceremony that will make this battle
station operational. No star system
will dare oppose the Emperor now.

LEIA
The more you tighten your grip,
Tarkin, the more star systems will
slip through your fingers.

TARKIN
Not after we demonstrate the power
of this station. In a way, you have
determined the choice of the planet
that'll be destroyed first. Since
you are reluctant to provide us with
the location of the Rebel base, I
have chosen to test this station's
destructive power... on your home
planet of Alderaan.

LEIA
No! Alderaan is peaceful. We have no
weapons. You can't possibly...

TARKIN
You would prefer another target? A
military target? Then name the system!

Tarkin waves menacingly toward Leia.

TARKIN
I grow tired of asking this. So it'll
be the last time. Where is the Rebel
base?

Leia overhears an intercom voice announcing the approach to
Alderaan.

LEIA
(softly)
Dantooine.

Leia lowers her head.

LEIA
They're on Dantooine.

TARKIN
There. You see Lord Vader, she can
be reasonable.
(addressing Motti)
Continue with the operation. You may
fire when ready.

LEIA
What?

TARKIN
You're far too trusting. Dantooine
is too remote to make an effective
demonstration. But don't worry. We
will deal with your Rebel friends
soon enough.

LEIA
No!

So... Tarkin threatens to destroy the planet full of civilians, unless Leia tells him where the secret Rebel base is. When she tells him (she lied, but he didn't know that at this point) he destroys her homeworld anyway, claiming that the Rebel base is too remote to make an effective demonstration of power (and ruthlessness.) Clearly an upstanding citizen in a moral society.

Even the Allied Powers have commited some war crimes, too.

People can lie sometimes too. Maybe Tarkin did know that Leia was lying and he was trying to be sneaky and sarcastic with her.

You're missing what I'd had stated earlier about preventing the star systems from opposing/rebelling against the Emperor.

Nazi and Japanaese propoganda has called the Americans during WW2 to be evil and sinister. The way that things are worded prove nothing either way.

For example, a Wikipedia entry on the Third Reich will tell us about their atrocities, and even without labeling them to be sinister and power hungry, we know that they are evil sickos.

This thread has such great potential because we can argue about a lot of different film events/plot points, and not just one of them! The destruction of Alderaan in ANH is just one of them. The moral nature of the Old Republic Sith and Darth Vader is just another one of them.

BTW, nobody has proved the internet critic on youtube's idea about the clone wars wrong just yet!

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Just please read my previous post about the second death star, dude.

Would Alderaan have been destroyed if there was no rebellion? From what you're saying, I guess no.

What you're saying is like the moral equivalent to justfying the Axis Powers merely by stating some Allied War Crimes.

You are a lost cunt. Alderaan was destroyed to STRENGTHEN CENTRAL CONTROL. If there had been no rebellion, but the senate did not do what the Emperor wanted, they would still have blown up planets. The choice of Alderaan was just because Leia was aboard.

Did you miss the whole 'dissolve senate/fear controls galaxy now/fear of BEING BLOWN THE FUCK UP BY EVIL CUNTS' part?

Since the DS is shown being built in ROTS I think it and it's use are clearly parts of imperial strategy rebellion or not.

Even if the Emperor/Anakin Vader had no worries about a rebellion, he would still destroy planets with it? Is that what you're telling me.

So, Alderaan was destroyed just for saturday morning cartoony evil villian fun? And it would have happened even if there was no rebellion? Right. Prove it.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Since when is the opinion of some stupid internet critic or other relevant to an in universe discussion? Yeah, I think for this idiocy alone, vulgar language is very much called for. Not that I would call a single use of fuck all that vulgar by local standards.

It's literal meaning is very vulgar.

I see that even as simple a term as 'by local standards' is beyond your grasp. Not that 'fuck' is all that out of the ordinary in everyday conversation, really.

Ad honinem arguements, I sense in you. That internet critic had a very good point about the clone wars being a very small and insignificant event.

Yeah. I mean it totally didn't kill millions, resulted in the near eradication of the Jedi Order, or lead to the creation of the fucking Galactic Empire or anything. Small and insignificant event totally without consequences.

Perhaps if you had even watched his video about his commentary from 30:00 onward you would know exactly what meesa talking about.

I have, and I know, and you're full of it. The opinion of the guy doing the commentary is absolutely worthless, not to mention completely wrong. Which you would know if you actually had a brain and/or were actually conscious during the movies.

"The near extermination of the Jedi Order cleared the way for Palpatine—power-hungry Senator and Sith Lord—to seize control of the Republic, declare himself Emperor, and usher in a fearsome, totalitarian regime.

How, exactly, did that happen if the Clone Wars were small and insignificant? Oh, and 'fearsome, totalitarian regime'. Sounds rather evil to me.

But even with the dreaded Darth Vader to enforce his sinister will, the threat of rebellion still looms. And the Emperor knows that only abject fear—and the ability to punish dissent with devastating consequences—can ensure his unchallenged control of the galaxy. Enter ambitious and ruthless government official Wilhuff Tarkin, architect of the Emperor's terrifying dream come true."

Hrm. Still sounds evil somehow.

Didn't Darth Plageuis discuss the idea for the DS1 with Sidious during the time of the Naboo blockade?

[Ahriman238]

It's literal meaning is very vulgar.

Fucking, or common sense?

Alderran, or somewhere similar would have been destroyed even without the Rebel Alliance because the Empire would still need a high-profile target to demonstrate their doomsday weapon on. The doomsday weapon they started building before the Rebellion was even a thing.

And please, don't insult our intelligence by suggesting the Empire was never going to use the DS II. I cannot find it in myself to believe they would sink so much time, money and manpower in something they only ever meant to use as short-term bait for a trap.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Palpatine design the Clone Wars so that there would be minimal damage wealthy Core Worlds where most of the films happen?

Sounds about right, a civil war is a terrible thing if you plan to be boss afterwards. All the ruined factories, farms and infrastructure are now YOUR ruined farms, factories, and infrastructure, just like all of the dead are your people. Much neater, if you're playing both sides, to minimize damage to the areas you really care about.

People can lie sometimes too. Maybe Tarkin did know that Leia was lying and he was trying to be sneaky and sarcastic with her.

So we go from destroying a planet as a show of force to destroying a planet as a conversational gambit?! Even I have a hard time imagining anyone so callous.

[Stark]

Your black/white fallacies and cherry picking are fucking gold.

Yes, you lost cunt, they were building the DS (or a prototype or whatever) in the very first days of the empire. It was not a response to the later political resistance. It was schemed to be used as a part of Tarkins existing theories of control through terror.

I don't want to tax your infantile brain too much, but why do you think the senate was dissolved, if not for the reasons clearly stated by Imperials in the movie? Is your catch all solution for people who disagree with you going to be 'America killed hundreds of thousands of civilians for no reason and it was morally right'?