[Spiderman Fanboy] 15 and it shows

[RogueIce]

Well, it was also partially the Republic's fault for waging an unjust war over secession. And you're completley missing the point that the reason that the Republic could have used civil disobedience with Chancellor Palpatine, after all, at that point, he really had no military to support him against his rivals.

This really has nothing to do with whether or not Palpatine and the Sith are evil.

Hell saying it was the Republic waging an unjust war just furthers the argument that Palpatine was evil because he was the one pushing it when we know there were Senators (such as Padme) who wanted to negotiate instead. So thanks for making our argument for us.

But the ROTS "the republic will be reorganized into the first galactic empire" scene was just a title, a formality, a figurehead's title. He already had absolute power as a dictator long before he had coronated himself as the Emperor. What difference does a title make?

People would be very angry if Obama had taken a title of nobility against the US constitution too, but it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

It would be like if Obama had created a crisis and he became a dictator, but nobody cares until Obama gives himself the title of an absolute ruler (ie, king obama or emperor Obama).

If Obama had created a crisis to get himself elected, people sure as fuck would be pissed off, if they found out. In Palpatine's case nobody found out about his involvment in the Naboo Crisis. (EDIT: Well until the end but by then it was a little late for the Jedi Order)

If Obama then went on to manufacture a war, basically having his own Chief of Staff (or whoever) acting upon his orders to create this war, in an effort to be made King of America, yes people would be amazingly pissed. Again, if they found out.

The Jedi, knowing what they knew about Darth Sidious and then discovering Palpatine was him, were quite justified in taking him out because I'm pretty sure engineering two wars (one a local conflict over Naboo, the second a galaxy-scale civil war) is pretty fucking evil. Did they badly fumble the ball by going at him directly instead of trying to present the evidence to the galaxy? Yes. Does that make Palpatine's actions any less evil because the Jedi fucked up? No, it does not.

[Metahive]

Tarkin did blow up Alderaan because of the rebellion. It was destroyed in order to keep the local star systems in line so that they wouldn't oppose the Emperor.

Price question, why would a genuinely benevolent regime need to rule by fear? Wait...

And, the EU only proves this to a T.

Quoted straight from Wookipedia.

"The near extermination of the Jedi Order cleared the way for Palpatine—power-hungry Senator and Sith Lord—to seize control of the Republic, declare himself Emperor, and usher in a fearsome, totalitarian regime. But even with the dreaded Darth Vader to enforce his sinister will, the threat of rebellion still looms. And the Emperor knows that only abject fear—and the ability to punish dissent with devastating consequences—can ensure his unchallenged control of the galaxy. Enter ambitious and ruthless government official Wilhuff Tarkin, architect of the Emperor's terrifying dream come true."

You quote a snippet that says straight out that Palpatine was so hated he could only rule by terror and think that supports your point? You know, the title of your thread is "WAS THE GALACTIC EMPIRE/THE SITH REALLY SO BAD AND EVIL".

You fail. F-, sit down.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Tarkin did blow up Alderaan because of the rebellion. It was destroyed in order to keep the local star systems in line so that they wouldn't oppose the Emperor.

Price question, why would a genuinely benevolent regime need to rule by fear? Wait...

And, the EU only proves this to a T.

Quoted straight from Wookipedia.

"The near extermination of the Jedi Order cleared the way for Palpatine—power-hungry Senator and Sith Lord—to seize control of the Republic, declare himself Emperor, and usher in a fearsome, totalitarian regime. But even with the dreaded Darth Vader to enforce his sinister will, the threat of rebellion still looms. And the Emperor knows that only abject fear—and the ability to punish dissent with devastating consequences—can ensure his unchallenged control of the galaxy. Enter ambitious and ruthless government official Wilhuff Tarkin, architect of the Emperor's terrifying dream come true."

You quote a snippet that says straight out that Palpatine was so hated he could only rule by terror and think that supports your point? You know, the title of your thread is "WAS THE GALACTIC EMPIRE/THE SITH REALLY SO BAD AND EVIL

You fail. F-, sit down.

WELL THEN MOSTLY ONLY THE REBELS HATED HIM SO MUCH, NOT THE GENERAL CIVILIAN POPULATION.

The only dissenters were the rebel terrorists.

[Batman]

Roughly 187% of the EU say you're wrong, but let's take a look at ANH. Hrm. We have Luke Skywalker, a farmboy at the ass-end of nowhere who likely wasn't really exposed to Imperial politics much...hate the Empire. Yeah, definitely only the rebel terrorists.
And while I know school grades don't go lower than F, I'd give that guy a Z minus at best.

[DaveJB]

If most of the population were indifferent towards the Empire, why did we see all those massive celebration scenes at the end of Return of the Jedi? Did they just tear down Palpatine's statue because there was nothing on the TV that night and they had nothing better to do?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

If most of the population were indifferent towards the Empire, why did we see all those massive celebration scenes at the end of Return of the Jedi? Did they just tear down Palpatine's statue because there was nothing on the TV that night and they had nothing better to do?

So, what kind of dissent and keeping people in line was Palpatine so paranoid and afraid of, exactly?

Why did Luke Skywalker hate the Empire, even though he was just a farmboy?

And what were those celebrations and toppling the emperor's statue all motivated by?

[Batman]

Excuse me, which side of the argument are you on again? Because as of right now it seems like you're agreeing 'yep, the empire was definitely bad and evil'.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Excuse me, which side of the argument are you on again? Because as of right now it seems like you're agreeing 'yep, the empire was definitely bad and evil'.

On answers such as these, speculation is all we have.

[Batman]

No, we have a fuckton of evidence. You merely don't like that evidence because it makes you look like a blithering idiot.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

No, we have a fuckton of evidence. You merely don't like that evidence because it makes you look like a blithering idiot.

Now, what's the central issue that we're arguing about? The empire using the death star for dissent, in order to keep the local star systems in line. But what were they dissenting about, exactly? And what exactly was the Emperor afraid about? Were all of the dissenters rebel terrorists?

Even without the death star, the rebels still wanted the restore the republic. It wasn't about stopping an evil emperor from destroying planets with his death star. It was about him giving up his title of nobility. And restoring the old republic's senate government. That's terrorism. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist, but the rebels were terrorists over here!

[Batman]

Is it me or did Spidermoron just go stark raving mad?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Is it me or did Spidermoron just go stark raving mad?

just please read my previous post.

[Batman]

I'll take that as a 'yes' then.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

I'll take that as a 'yes' then.

ONCE AGAIN YOU'RE NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS

What dissent existed in the Empire that Palps was so paranoid and afraid about that he built a death star to keep people under control? And what does that have to do with him dissolving the Senate?

What if Obama had suddenly violated the US constituion by taking a title of nobility for himself. That's what Sidious did.

[Batman]

I'll take that as a 'yes' then.

ONCE AGAIN YOU'RE NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS
What dissent existed in the Empire that Palps was so paranoid and afraid about that he built a death star to keep people under control? And what does that have to do with him dissolving the Senate?

Who cares? There was, and he did. Not that this hasn't been explained in great detail already (repeatedly) anyway.

What if Obama had suddenly violated the US constituion by taking a title of nobility for himself. That's what Sidious did.

Well for starters he'd simply be arrested and probably be shunted off into some mental institution or other?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

I'll take that as a 'yes' then.

ONCE AGAIN YOU'RE NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS
What dissent existed in the Empire that Palps was so paranoid and afraid about that he built a death star to keep people under control? And what does that have to do with him dissolving the Senate?

Who cares? There was, and he did. Not that this hasn't been explained in great detail already (repeatedly) anyway.

What if Obama had suddenly violated the US constituion by taking a title of nobility for himself. That's what Sidious did.

Well for starters he'd simply be arrested and probably be shunted off into some mental institution or other?

But what dissent was Palpatine afraid of?

Padme knew that Palpatine was taking away the democracy in the Republic. But when did the story get all emotional and dramatic and suddenly Palpatine becames this uber evil demonic villian? When he takes on a title of nobility from himself, that's when liberty dies with a thunderous applause.

[Stark]

Begging the question being dishonest and stupid aside, it's pretty clear that the remains of the republic political system resisted his program on some level. That's why he dissolved it when it wasn't necessary any more and took up personal rule and why politicians supported other organisations.

Why didn't he need the political system anymore?

He had the Death Star.

Is Fanboy really so stupid he can't link 'if the senate hears about this we're in trouble' and 'senate was dissolved today'?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Begging the question being dishonest and stupid aside, it's pretty clear that the remains of the republic political system resisted his program on some level. That's why he dissolved it when it wasn't necessary any more and took up personal rule and why politicians supported other organisations.

Why didn't he need the political system anymore?

He had the Death Star.

Is Fanboy really so stupid he can't link 'if the senate hears about this we're in trouble' and 'senate was dissolved today'?

But you still didn't respond to my comment about Palpatine's evilness coming from his mere title of being an Emperor that somehow dishonors democracy and the Republic.

[Batman]

Is this a trick question? The one he manufactured you blithering imbecile. And as someone who has in the past (and, unfortunately, rightfully) been called on needlessly inclusive quotes, you may want to lay off on that. It's entirely possible to quote the single line you're actually responding to you know.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Is this a trick question? The one he manufactured you blithering imbecile. And as someone who has in the past (and, unfortunately, rightfully) been called on needlessly inclusive quotes, you may want to lay off on that. It's entirely possible to quote the single line you're actually responding to you know.

Padme got all emotional about liberty dying and democracy dying when Palpatine had called himself the Emperor.

But not before.

Just like how titles of nobility are frowned upon in our society.

Here's a real world analogy, dude. What if The queen of england had become the prime minister of england? Or what if the prime minister of england had labeled himself the king of england? People would be pretty angry about that.

[Batman]

Silly me. And here I thought Palpy being evil came from, I dunno, him acting like an evil person. You know, the Naboo invasion, the whole civil war that wouldn't have come about without him, the xenophobia and enslavement of sentient species under the Empire, the routine killing of innocent civilians (Aldereraan comes to mind, as do Owen and Beru and those Jawas).

[DaveJB]

Padme got all emotional about liberty dying and democracy dying when Palpatine had called himself the Emperor.

But not before.

Just like how titles of nobility are frowned upon in our society.

Here's a real world analogy, dude. What if The queen of england had become the prime minister of england? Or what if the prime minister of england had labeled himself the king of england? People would be pretty angry about that.

You seriously think the reason people hated Palpatine was because of his job title? Okay, now I know you're fucking with us.

Here's another real world analogy, genius. What if President Obama decided to drop a nuclear bomb on the city of Austin because Texas elected a mostly Republican set of congressmen in the last election? Do you seriously think anyone would give two fucks about whether he was President, Prime Minister, King or Führer?

[Ahriman238]

Umm... yes? The moment you institute an autocracy, democracy has sort of gone out the window. It's almost like liberty... dies.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Republic was already a de facto Empire and the destruction of the Jedi and declaration of Empire just made it official. Ok, fair enough. Not everyone pays enough attention to politics to object before the incompetence or evil becomes blatantly obvious.

But to say that Padme in particular didn't care beforehand? Wasn't she the one organizing the meeting of concerned Senators who wanted Palpatine to back down a bit on the emergency powers now that they're actually winning the war? The group that later becomes the Rebel leadership? Or am I recalling the film wrong?

[Batman]

Let's see. A senate that has a not inconsiderable input in how your realm is managed. Empire. The Emperor says-whatever, and you either make it happen or you die. Yes, I think there's a slight difference.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Umm... yes? The moment you institute an autocracy, democracy has sort of gone out the window. It's almost like liberty... dies.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Republic was already a de facto Empire and the destruction of the Jedi and declaration of Empire just made it official. Ok, fair enough. Not everyone pays enough attention to politics to object before the incompetence or evil becomes blatantly obvious.

But to say that Padme in particular didn't care beforehand? Wasn't she the one organizing the meeting of concerned Senators who wanted Palpatine to back down a bit on the emergency powers now that they're actually winning the war? The group that later becomes the Rebel leadership? Or am I recalling the film wrong?

Yes, but she didn't make as big of a deal about it until his title was an official title.

What does de-facto mean?