[Spiderman Fanboy] 15 and it shows

[Batman]

'De facto' means 'in everything but name', essentially. It looks like a duck, it behaves like a duck, dissection reveals that yep, it's a duck, but since we called it a slarpadoodle it's obviously something completely different.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

'De facto' means 'in everything but name', essentially. It looks like a duck, it behaves like a duck, dissection reveals that yep, it's a duck, but since we called it a slarpadoodle it's obviously something completely different.

OK. But Padme didn't really make as big of a deal about it when it was a de facto Empire. For example, she didn't cry to Anakin saying what kind of an evil person he has become before that coronation scene.

[Batman]

I have yet to see the bit where you show that the Old Republic was a de facto Empire I'm afraid.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

I have yet to see the bit where you show that the Old Republic was a de facto Empire I'm afraid.

Ok. Palpatine already had emergency powers because of the clone wars, and in the ROTS deleted scenes it says that the Senate no longer practically has any power left, because of all of his power and constituional ammendments that were giving him more power.

I have yet to see why the ROTS coronation scene changed anything in the government system at all.

[Stark]

You mean how it gave him a free hand and was the whole reason the war was started?
Is that the thing you don't think changed anything?

[Batman]

So, you're basically saying that since Palpy managed to change the Old Republic into an Empire...it somehow was one from the word go. Um-no?
Yes, Palpatine got emergency powers. Guess what? Those powers could have been taken away again if the Old Republic had persisted. Unless you can quote me the paragraph of the Old Republic constitution that says 'Yeah, once we've given that guy emergency powers, there's absolutely positively nothing we can to to remove him from power', yeah, there were legal ways to get rid of him.. The term 'No' comes to mind.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Anyways, let's discuss the Imperial dissension. In the ROTS scene, Obi wan kenobi had told yoda that the Emperor still needs the Senate in order to rule/control.

And Palpatine uses the death star to replace that because he doesn't want any star systems to oppose (ie, to rebel) against the emperor.

The rebels were rebelling to restore democracy. They would have rebelled even if there was no death star.

[Dominarch's Hope]

The Republic of Palpatine's Era wasnt an empire. It was a severely under militarized Republic/Confederation in which Private Armies and Navies were the big deal.

In fact, it appears that the Republic Senate existed at that point via sheer inertia and tradition at that point, since just about anybody with the money and resources to have a fairly large navy.

Lets say Palpatine and his apprentices all die. Something like the Clone Wars was freaking inevitable although it would have likely have been more than just two factions going at it. The Republic of that time was a farce, and I wouldnt doubt that the majority of combatants and ships in the Republic's force were from private planetary fleets.

Now, the Republic up till say Bane's time was closer to an Empire and had a cohesive cultural state. In fact, right up to Revan's little war, it was a solid rate of expansion with most members signing up for economic or military reasons. The Sith Empire, the Mandalorians, and dozens of smaller militant threats kept it together as much as it weakened the Republic. Hell, during this time, Coruscants' dominance was being contested by a dozen other core worlds in a relatively friendly rivalry.

The Republic during Palpatine was falling apart, as the biggest reasons for being a member were gone as there really were no military rivals to it and the economic benefits were debatable at best, aside from the Holonet. There was simply no longer any reason to remain a united Galactic entity.

The Galatic Empire was a resurgence of the Core Worlds. In fact, aside from Jedi/Sith religious squabbles, the Galactic Empire had more in common with the Old Republic of the Old Sith Wars than Padme's Republic.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Why didn't Padme join Darth Vader to rule the galaxy as his Empress if she had no idea about the Death Star?

[lPeregrine]

I have yet to see why the ROTS coronation scene changed anything in the government system at all.

Tell me you're just trolling and really aren't this stupid. That scene makes a difference because it's the moment that nobody can fool themselves anymore, they have to confront the truth that Palpatine is really taking over. There's no more saying "it's ok, he's really just Doing What Must Be Done to save the Republic" or "sure he's an ambitious politician, but the senate can still intervene if he goes too far", or whatever. From that moment on the Empire is a reality and one by one the pretenses of democracy and freedom are stripped away.

[Batman]

That'd be be the part where Padme knew nothing about there being an Empire, Anakin becoming Vader and would have opposed to her dying breath the coming about of either? I'm sorry did you actually watch the movies?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

I have yet to see why the ROTS coronation scene changed anything in the government system at all.

Tell me you're just trolling and really aren't this stupid. That scene makes a difference because it's the moment that nobody can fool themselves anymore, they have to confront the truth that Palpatine is really taking over. There's no more saying "it's ok, he's really just Doing What Must Be Done to save the Republic" or "sure he's an ambitious politician, but the senate can still intervene if he goes too far", or whatever. From that moment on the Empire is a reality and one by one the pretenses of democracy and freedom are stripped away.

Well, actually, I'm a very detail obsessed person. I feel that everything has to be proved to me.

But, at that point, the Senate wasn't dissolved yet. So, he didn't really have absolute power totally and 100%, he just had a lot of power like he did beforehand with his emergency powers and the amendments, that were being discussed during the ROTS deleted scenes with the senators.

But I do find Palpatine being a political villian to be not as "interesting" or "epic" as it should be.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

That'd be be the part where Padme knew nothing about there being an Empire, Anakin becoming Vader and would have opposed to her dying breath the coming about of either? I'm sorry did you actually watch the movies?

Yes, I did watch the movies. When I was 7 years old i went to go see the movie with my older siblings-my brother and my sister, which was right around the time when the movie had first come out. Not to mention me having the ROTS disc in my room.

I still don't get what your point is. Err, what? What are you talking about, exactly? At that point there was democracy taken away and Anakin was still siding with the bad guy who took away democracy.

[lPeregrine]

Well, actually, I'm a very detail obsessed person. I feel that everything has to be proved to me.

Apparently everything has to be explained to you in the way that you'd explain it to a five year old.

But, at that point, the Senate wasn't dissolved yet. So, he didn't really have absolute power totally and 100%, he just had a lot of power like he did beforehand with his emergency powers and the amendments, that were being discussed during the ROTS deleted scenes with the senators.

Expect that:

1) In that scene the senate proves that it is no longer effective as a limit on his power. Palpatine declares himself emperor and the senate celebrates. There's no longer any real hope that the senate will be more than a rubber stamp on the emperor's decisions about anything important (even if it's a useful bureaucracy in managing lower-level government functions).

2) There's no longer any question of Palpatine's intentions. Nobody can deny it anymore, he isn't just taking drastic actions to handle a crisis and save the Republic, he's in it for personal gain and has appointed himself ruler of the galaxy.

But I do find Palpatine being a political villian to be not as "interesting" or "epic" as it should be.

What, he isn't "epic" enough if you don't have scene after scene of him torturing people to death just to hear them scream?

[Batman]

So you're agreeing that Palpy and Anakin were the Bad Guys? Because that sure as hell didn't come across as your base position for most of this thread.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Well, actually, I'm a very detail obsessed person. I feel that everything has to be proved to me.

Apparently everything has to be explained to you in the way that you'd explain it to a five year old.

But, at that point, the Senate wasn't dissolved yet. So, he didn't really have absolute power totally and 100%, he just had a lot of power like he did beforehand with his emergency powers and the amendments, that were being discussed during the ROTS deleted scenes with the senators.

Expect that:

1) In that scene the senate proves that it is no longer effective as a limit on his power. Palpatine declares himself emperor and the senate celebrates. There's no longer any real hope that the senate will be more than a rubber stamp on the emperor's decisions about anything important (even if it's a useful bureaucracy in managing lower-level government functions).

2) There's no longer any question of Palpatine's intentions. Nobody can deny it anymore, he isn't just taking drastic actions to handle a crisis and save the Republic, he's in it for personal gain and has appointed himself ruler of the galaxy.

But I do find Palpatine being a political villian to be not as "interesting" or "epic" as it should be.

What, he isn't "epic" enough if you don't have scene after scene of him torturing people to death just to hear them scream?

But the Death Star was used to keep the local star systems in line so that they wouldn't oppose the Emperor. Which had implied rebellion. And the Rebel Alliance's main goal was to restore democracy. They would have waged a civil war against Palps even if there was no death star.

So, yes, Palpatine did build the death star because of the rebel alliance.

And how exactly does the death star manage low level government functions?

[lPeregrine]

But the Death Star was used to keep the local star systems in line so that they wouldn't oppose the Emperor.

Which is evil.

Which had implied rebellion. And the Rebel Alliance's main goal was to restore democracy. They would have waged a civil war against Palps even if there was no death star.

Because Palpatine and his Empire were evil. "But I had to beat them into submission, otherwise they would have disrespected my authority" isn't an excuse.

So, yes, Palpatine did build the death star because of the rebel alliance.

What exactly is your point? That Palpatine built a death star because the galaxy (not surprisingly) didn't just submit to his overthrow of the former government and rule by fear? What do you expect to happen in that situation?

PS: a cause and effect relationship is not the same thing as moral justification.

And how exactly does the death star manage low level government functions?

FFS, are you illiterate? The senate manages low-level government functions. Palpatine's "I am the emperor now" scene demonstrates that the senate is a spineless bureaucracy that is not capable of doing anything more than enthusiastically rubber stamping Palpatine's decisions. It still exists in name until ANH, but after that scene all it does is handle the administrative details, there will be no meaningful opposition from the senate and everyone knows it.

[Batman]

I think we just hit a new level of stupid, and for this board, that's saying something. Um-yeah-Empire=oppressive. The only one debating that was you, you know.
And no, since construction of the Death Star started years before the Rebel Alliance came into being, he did not. Not that I see what difference that would make, mind you.
And whoever said the Death Star handled low level government functions?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

I think we just hit a new level of stupid, and for this board, that's saying something. Um-yeah-Empire=oppressive. The only one debating that was you, you know.
And no, since construction of the Death Star started years before the Rebel Alliance came into being, he did not. Not that I see what difference that would make, mind you.
And whoever said the Death Star handled low level government functions?

What does the construction of the death star being built before the rebel alliance came into being mean? What's your point? It was built to keep the Imperial star systems in line from opposing the Emperor, and, according to the Death Star Novel, from Rebellion.

If the death star replaces the Senate, and the Senate as a device to rule the galaxy's people, that's why I made that comment.

[Thanas]

Spiderman Fanboy gets a warning for misuse of the report button. You do not report people for using mean words against you.

[lPeregrine]

What does the construction of the death star being built before the rebel alliance came into being mean?

It means that "the rebels made me do it" is a stupid excuse. Palpatine decided to build the death star before the rebel alliance existed, right from day one his plan was to rule the galaxy by killing anyone foolish enough to even consider opposing him.

What's your point? It was built to keep the Imperial star systems in line from opposing the Emperor, and, according to the Death Star Novel, from Rebellion.

Which is an evil act. FFS, is it really that hard to understand how "building a planet-destroying superweapon to terrify everyone into submitting to your rule" is a bad thing and how it justified armed opposition?

If the death star replaces the Senate, and the Senate as a device to rule the galaxy's people, that's why I made that comment.

I believe I speak for everyone when I say what?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Spiderman Fanboy gets a warning for misuse of the report button. You do not report people for using mean words against you.

OK, I understand now. I apologize for breaking the rules. But is profanity allowed on these boards or not? I dislike profanity and/or name calling being used in a discussion. Can you please explain the rules about this (ie, name calling, profanity, etc)?

[Dominarch's Hope]

Why didn't Padme join Darth Vader to rule the galaxy as his Empress if she had no idea about the Death Star?

Because she wanted to live a peaceful and happy life with Anakin Skywalker.



Im going to read this thread to feel better about how I am perceived on this website.

[Ahriman238]

What does the construction of the death star being built before the rebel alliance came into being mean? What's your point? It was built to keep the Imperial star systems in line from opposing the Emperor, and, according to the Death Star Novel, from Rebellion.

If the death star replaces the Senate, and the Senate as a device to rule the galaxy's people, that's why I made that comment.

It means the Death Star could not possibly have been built specifically for the Rebel Alliance or in response to any action they may have taken.

The Death Star was built to terrify the populace into obeying the government. The Empire wouldn't need to terrorize their citizenry if they weren't doing horrible things, and specifically shut down any recourse said people might have for airing their grievances and receiving redress. Rule Through Fear generally says you aren't competent enough to rule any other way.

The Death Star is a poor replacement for the Senate as a tool of governance. It doesn't do any better at preventing Rebellion ("The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers" remember that?) and it certainly doesn't do any better at the routine administration and paperwork the Senate did. It is not a sufficient replacement in any way.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

What does the construction of the death star being built before the rebel alliance came into being mean?

It means that "the rebels made me do it" is a stupid excuse. Palpatine decided to build the death star before the rebel alliance existed, right from day one his plan was to rule the galaxy by killing anyone foolish enough to even consider opposing him.

What's your point? It was built to keep the Imperial star systems in line from opposing the Emperor, and, according to the Death Star Novel, from Rebellion.

Which is an evil act. FFS, is it really that hard to understand how "building a planet-destroying superweapon to terrify everyone into submitting to your rule" is a bad thing and how it justified armed opposition?

If the death star replaces the Senate, and the Senate as a device to rule the galaxy's people, that's why I made that comment.

I believe I speak for everyone when I say what?

Umm, both the movies and the EU confirm that the death star was built in order to quell rebellion. So, yes, it was built before a specific group of dissenters (ie, the rebel alliance). But, would Alderaan have been destroyed if there was no armed rebel resistance against him? This sounds a lot like a chicken and the egg self fullfilling prophecy arguement. I'm trying to figure this out, dude. It was people like the rebel alliance that the death star was built against.

The rebels were trying to restore the republic, that was their main goal, there main goal was not to stop the death star from being used against planets, although that was one of their goals.