The Pope resigns

[Ahriman238]

There is a precedent, particularly if his health is keeping him from discharging the duties of his office, like making Papal visits, or he deteriorates mentally. Still, this is the first time it's happened in the modern era, so something to mark on the calender.

[SomeDude]

I didn't even know Popes could resign. I mean what with the appointed by God conceit they have going on?

He is the pope. He is infallible.

He's not. He's infallible in very limited circumstances. Read up on your Catholic doctrine before proclaiming things.

[LaCroix]

or in the next few days, a truly appalling scandal is about to hit that the Catholic Church knows that there is no way for them to deal with except for the Pope to resign in disgrace, rather than voluntarily.

https://twitter.com/Pontifex

We must trust in the mighty power of God’s mercy. We are all sinners, but His grace transforms us and makes us new.

Your prophecy is getting more plausible.

[Lord Relvenous]

He only resigned to put an end to the Church having two popes as well, as he occupied the seat that was clearly the illegitimate one. This could mark a serious change to the Papacy, though perhaps not simply because he may be seen as having been in the job too little time to be credible.

Could you expound on this a bit further? Specifically the bit about two popes.

[UnderAGreySky]

He only resigned to put an end to the Church having two popes as well, as he occupied the seat that was clearly the illegitimate one. This could mark a serious change to the Papacy, though perhaps not simply because he may be seen as having been in the job too little time to be credible.

Could you expound on this a bit further? Specifically the bit about two popes.

Both you and Gil Hamilton were thrown off by Skimmer's usage of the pronoun "he". Skimmer was referring to Gregory XII who was the last one to resign before today. That story involves there being two popes at the same time (or one pope and one antipope, which mutually annihilate each other and release gamma rays)

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The last voluntary resignation was in 1294 and mocked even in Dante's Divine Comedy as "the Great Refusal". Among Catholics of old at least it seemed to be the universal sign of a coward unwilling to bear the cross until the end for the Christ. I honestly cannot believe he did this unless something is about to come out proving beyond all reasonable doubt that he was a serial rapist of young boys. The fact that he will live out his life in the walls of the Vatican instead of retiring to some less prominent monastery also suggests he is trying to escape justice. This Pope, who had the power and authority through the Inquisition to excommunicate and render over to civil authorities all of the molesters to respond to the allegations of abuse in the 2000s and restore the authority of the church, winning immediate support from the conservative wing of the church in doing so, has instead acted as an enabler to them throughout, set a policy which continued to enable them and which destroyed all of the Church's moral authority. He has very nearly killed Catholicism, and if it still exists in a thousand years perhaps a Catholic will write of him as being one of the Popes burning in the fires of Hell.

[Siege]

He's most likely not going to live out his life in the walls of the Vatican though. He will retire to Castel Gandolfo and then spend an undetermined amount of time in a Vatican monastery. Every Vatican-watcher I've heard on the subject considers it unlikely he'll be there for long, because he'd be in the way of whoever is the next pope.

It's true that it's been a while since the last pope resigned but Canon Law is abundantly clear that it's possible for the pope to do so as long as "the resignation be freely made and properly manifested", as per 332 §2 of Canon Law. Which is another probably reason for him to get out now: if his health takes a quick turn for the worse he might find himself in a position where he can no longer 'properly manifest' his desire to resign, and the last thing the Church needs right now is another miserable and long-winded demise like JPII's.

I suppose there could be a major scandal brewing, but considering Benedict's stubbornness and the way the Church operates I find it unlikely that's the case. He's an old man who never wanted to be pope and, as Themightytom correctly pointed out, was not particularly well-suited for the job either - especially not in these times - and he probably realizes that instead of clinging to the Holy See as his health continues to decline it's probably better for the Church, for himself and for everybody else to retire and go back to writing obscure theological treatises that won't attract the kind of scrutiny he's obviously not capable of dealing with.

[Lord Relvenous]

He only resigned to put an end to the Church having two popes as well, as he occupied the seat that was clearly the illegitimate one. This could mark a serious change to the Papacy, though perhaps not simply because he may be seen as having been in the job too little time to be credible.

Could you expound on this a bit further? Specifically the bit about two popes.

Both you and Gil Hamilton were thrown off by Skimmer's usage of the pronoun "he". Skimmer was referring to Gregory XII who was the last one to resign before today. That story involves there being two popes at the same time (or one pope and one antipope, which mutually annihilate each other and release gamma rays)

Ah, that makes much more sense. Thank you.

[Ralin]

Yeah, I'm placing my money on health concerns with a possibility of advancing senility/dementia. He really hasn't done much to give me the impression that he gives enough of a fuck about public opinion to resign over a scandal.

Plus it would be pretty dumb of him to give up his powers and immunities as a head of state and a major religion if he knows he's about to be outed as a child rapist. Just saying.

[CaptainChewbacca]

The odds-on favorite for the next pope is actually Cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana, coming in at 5/2 odds. We already had a black President, why not a black Pope?

[Ritterin Sophia]

Pope's have resigned numerous times in the past. Only recently have they been on a streak of dying in office.

If by "numerous" you mean three and by "recently" you mean in the last six-hundred years, then I suppose you'd be correct.

In two-thousand years only three Popes are recognized by the Church as having resigned voluntarily: St. Clement I in 99, Pope Celestine V in 1294, and Pope Gregory ZII in 1415.

I remember when JPII dropped, and Ratzinger was the most probable next guy. Is there another old white guy poised to gain the potential power of infallibility?

Most bets are on Cardinal Pell, Archbishop of Sydney. Though the current Archbishop of Mexico City and the current Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments who is the former Archbishop of Toledo are pretty high on the list.

Well, since women are out of the running entirely, and the prior 250+ selections have all been white, yeah, I'm pretty certain the next one will also be an old white guy.

Whilst it's certainly likely to be white, I remind you that Cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana is very popular in the College of Cardinals.

[OneEyedTeddyMcGrew]

I honestly cannot believe he did this unless something is about to come out proving beyond all reasonable doubt that he was a serial rapist of young boys.

You will, of course, provide evidence for this claim? I agree that he deserves all the criticism gets for not thoroughly cleaning house when abuse scandals were brought to his attention, but to say the man himself was buggering small boys is not something that should be thrown about lightly.

As for my own thoughts. At least he did one good thing in his career by resigning voluntarily. Hopefully it sets a precedent for the future. The modern Papacy is far too big a job to have somebody going gaga in office.

I've resigned myself to the fact that there's probably never going to be a non-frothing reactionary a la Pope John XXIII in the Chair of St Peter in my lifetime. One of JP II's more poisonous legacies was to stack the College of Cardinals with men who subscribed to his particularly reactionary, doctrinaire view of Catholicism. A situation that the now ex-Pope, as the former head of the The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, formerly known as Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition was directly responsible for bringing about. A liberal Pope will never get voted in by them as long as they're still breathing, less still a liberal South American Cardinal since the ones that still hold their office are probably tainted by the liberal theology fiasco (which I still hold, along with Humanae Vitae, to be one of the most damaging and obscene acts in modern Vatican history). I'll settle for anybody that isn't an old, white European. Arinze perhaps? At least Arinze has a history of good works in the Nigeria-Biafra war and a rather liberal stance towards traditional forms of worship in Catholic mass to fall back on. That's probably the best we're going to get.

EDIT: Also, the complete list of Papal resignations in history (excluding anti-Popes). It's not exactly long.

1045: Benedict IX
1046: Gregory VI
1294: Celestine V
1415: Gregory XII

[Spekio]

He's not. He's infallible in very limited circumstances. Read up on your Catholic doctrine before proclaiming things.

It was a joke. In response to a joke made by Crazed Wraith. I grew up catholic.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I said "I honestly can't believe he did this unless". i.e., it's unfathomable short of that. Now, that just means that I'm completely amazed by the fact a Pope would ignore a thousand years of tradition, when tradition is all that matters to the Church.

[OneEyedTeddyMcGrew]

The now ex-Pope has gone on the record quite a few times in saying that a Pope resigning would be acceptable as long as it was due to the fact that they couldn't do the job, as opposed to just not "feeling" up to it.

In Light of the World, Pope Benedict responded unambiguously to a question about whether a pope could resign: "Yes. If a Pope clearly realizes that he is no longer physically, psychologically, and spiritually capable of handling the duties of his office, then he has a right and, under some circumstances, also an obligation to resign."

On the other hand, he did not favor resignation simply because the burden of the papacy is great. "When the danger is great one must not run away. For that reason, now is certainly not the time to resign. Precisely at a time like this one must stand fast and endure the situation. That is my view. One can resign at a peaceful moment or when one simply cannot go on. But one must not run away from danger and say someone else should do it."

There's also the fact that the Papacy is a very different beast to what it was in medieval times. The tradition and ritual might be the same, but the one good process JP II set in motion was to turn the Papacy into an international institution instead of the private fiefdom of a bunch of old white Italians. A modern Pope is expected to travel and preach across the entire world. That in itself is a significant strain on the body and mind of anybody.

[Gil Hamilton]

Both you and Gil Hamilton were thrown off by Skimmer's usage of the pronoun "he". Skimmer was referring to Gregory XII who was the last one to resign before today. That story involves there being two popes at the same time (or one pope and one antipope, which mutually annihilate each other and release gamma rays)

The first part was talking about Gregory XII, but I was responding to the second part, which I thought was about Benedict. Could be wrong there.

[Irbis]

EDIT: Also, the complete list of Papal resignations in history (excluding anti-Popes). It's not exactly long.

1045: Benedict IX
1046: Gregory VI
1294: Celestine V
1415: Gregory XII

What about Pope John XVIII?

[OneEyedTeddyMcGrew]

Somewhat debatable since he was under the thumb of the Crescentii family that controlled Rome during that period, and was basically a glorified rubber stamp. He certainly could be included though.

[Admiral Valdemar]

If nothing else, we can finally see if the successor will mean the destruction of Rome or not. The Mayan thing fizzled out, much to the tinfoil hatters' collective dismay.

[hongi]

Most bets are on Cardinal Pell, Archbishop of Sydney.

Fuck no!

A haiku that someone wrote about Mitt Romney, but appropriate to this:



not at all, not at
all, not at all, not at all,
dear fucking god, no

[OneEyedTeddyMcGrew]

For the record, my money is on either Turkson and Ouellet. I'd love to see Arinze or Rivera (a guy who criticized corruption in the Mexican government so thoroughly that the president considered a law that would ban priests from discussing politics publicly) get it to have a platform to pursue a social justice Papacy, but Arinze is probably too old and Rivera probably doesn't have the support.

[Broomstick]

I wonder if he's developing dementia and doesn't want to bring that to the office, or state it publically. I can't see arthritis being a reason.

Obviously, you've never known anyone with debilitating arthritis. It can be quite crippling, in its most extreme forms leading to deformed or frozen joints.

He has been becoming physically frail in recent years. I'd be surprised if there hasn't already been some thought towards succession.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Most bets are on Cardinal Pell, Archbishop of Sydney.

Fuck no!

A haiku that someone wrote about Mitt Romney, but appropriate to this:



not at all, not at
all, not at all, not at all,
dear fucking god, no

Well the last time they convened to elect a pope they elected a guy who protected hundreds of child molesters from prosecution. This shouldn't be a surprise.

[Broomstick]

The odds-on favorite for the next pope is actually Cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana, coming in at 5/2 odds. We already had a black President, why not a black Pope?

Hey, I'm OK with it, but since I am not and never have been a Catholic it's not like my opinion counts.

[Havok]

Does it even fucking matter? Has there ever been a new Pope that made such drastic changes so as to make anyone outside of Catholics even notice or care?
Honestly, is there ever going to be a guy come in and say, "Hey guys, lets lay off gay people. God thinks they are A-OK." or "Contraceptives? Hell yeah." how about, "Let's get some more chicks in this gig." or even the most basic "If a child gets molested by one of our priests, we are going Inquisition on his ass."? Fucking of course not so who cares?