Fired Cop On a Murderous Rampage in SoCal

[weemadando]

So, has anyone decided if they actually got him yet?

Or are they still debating if there's a body?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Oh for fucks sake, as someone that has struck someone enough to count high enough to break up blows into blocks of seven, you know gawddamned well when the hits are getting excessive. It surprises me fucking zero that a cop can say "you have to prove the guy knew the last seven strikes were excessive" with a straight fucking face. The fact that he couldn't figure it out one way or another is enough reason for him never to sniff another promotion.

Hey Havok. I was wondering when you would drop it to wow us with one of your anedoctal stories. Seriously, cool story man. How about you actually try addressing the point or can we jus fast forward to the part where you disappear from the thread?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Whatever interaction with the patrol officer witness you are speaking about isn't in the source I quoted. Could you cite it?

Sure, from the Dorner manifesto:

He also stated
that he assisted in cuffing the suspect and that’s old the BOR he told me to
fix my tie.

A link (earlier in the thread I think, or I may have saw it on Reddit) amounted to the same thing. Footage shows that Dorner was in a uniform without a tie that day, and the officer is on record during the disposition or similar with that statement.

So, the officers statement is brought into doubt because he thought Dorner was wearing a tie. Okay. Seems kind of strange that we should throw out a testimony over a mistake regarding clothing but accept the testimony from someone who wasn't getting high marks from his training officer. I call that motive.

Ah, NB, fantastic, quite literally the only brand you can reference that supports your point (and I'm a runner, and like plain light grey shoes with minimal trim). I prefer Asics myself, but they're a quality shoe. I see the 2040 (I wear cushioning) is grey, and would likely pass muster. Don't know if I'd drop $275 for a training run if I already had perfectly functional shoes already, but it certainly is a against-the-rules situation. That guy must certainly have been a handful at training, with his bright shoes and all.

Yeah, the only one along with Reebok, Nike, and practically every other major shoe brand. Though the brand you mention actually doesn't have any so I can see why you'd think that.

Adhering to the uniform guidelines is a simple demonstration of discipline. I'd be sympathetic to him if he showed up in shoes with a hint of blue but neon green or the shoes on your choice are not acceptable. By itself this isn't a big deal but it seems he had a problem with authority.

In the end you're given a clothing allowance and likely a place to buy these items so there really is no excuse.

That's an awfully weak defense, and absolutely worthless in my mind. We're going to have to simply disagree here. I feel very strongly about what the role of police officers is, and beating civilians isn't something that should be in the job description.

It is legal for police to use force in effecting an arrest. King resisted gentler attempts to submit. Those attempts included a group take down which King repelled and two taser hits which King repelled which made officers believe he was under the influence of PCP, which at the time was well known for its effects on the human body - high resistance to pain which leads to greater strength.

I've viewed the video but I have no idea which was Solano is. That's why I asked if he was aware that the strikes were excessive. You also have the fact that a supervisor was already on scene.

[Haruko]

Here is the latest article about the fire by San Bernardino County Sun:

Authorities say body found in burned cabin

Posted: 02/12/2013 11:46:04 PM PST

Investigators have found charred human remains in the burned cabin where murder suspect Christopher Dorner barricaded himself, officials said late Tuesday.
San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department issued a statement around 11 p.m. saying the remains will be identified through forensic means but didn't specify if they will use DNA testing and dental records.

A fleeing Dorner holed up in the cabin and exchanged gunfire with deputies and officers on Tuesday afternoon.

Two deputies were shot. One later died of his injuries while the other is expected to survive.

Fire later broke out and engulfed the cabin.

[Sea Skimmer]

Now the question is, how long, if ever, until the police release some of the helicopter footage you can be certain they have to prove that their course of events for how this end was actually true. Somehow I see them refusing for a long time.

[GoldenBough]

So, the officers statement is brought into doubt because he thought Dorner was wearing a tie. Okay. Seems kind of strange that we should throw out a testimony over a mistake regarding clothing but accept the testimony from someone who wasn't getting high marks from his training officer. I call that motive.

We know that the officer is mistaken regarding at least a portion of his testimony, recalling an event that not only never happened, but couldn't have happened given his uniform.

Yeah, the only one along with Reebok, Nike, and practically every other major shoe brand. Though the brand you mention actually doesn't have any so I can see why you'd think that.

Adhering to the uniform guidelines is a simple demonstration of discipline. I'd be sympathetic to him if he showed up in shoes with a hint of blue but neon green or the shoes on your choice are not acceptable. By itself this isn't a big deal but it seems he had a problem with authority.

In the end you're given a clothing allowance and likely a place to buy these items so there really is no excuse.

Have you ever tried to run in mass provided shoes? They're universally shit, and Dorner was a big dude. I'm not trying to give him a pass on it, but it's not exactly a "oh shit, look at this trouble making badass over here" moment we're discussing.

It is legal for police to use force in effecting an arrest. King resisted gentler attempts to submit. Those attempts included a group take down which King repelled and two taser hits which King repelled which made officers believe he was under the influence of PCP, which at the time was well known for its effects on the human body - high resistance to pain which leads to greater strength.

I've viewed the video but I have no idea which was Solano is. That's why I asked if he was aware that the strikes were excessive. You also have the fact that a supervisor was already on scene.

No excuse. You can take him down hard, but you can't beat the shit out of him once he's down and on the ground. Period. No excuses, no exceptions. I don't care what he did or says, you're a police officer. You're held (in theory, never in practice) to a higher standard.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Now the question is, how long, if ever, until the police release some of the helicopter footage you can be certain they have to prove that their course of events for how this end was actually true. Somehow I see them refusing for a long time.

Given what was heard on that news broadcast they should release it immediately.

We know that the officer is mistaken regarding at least a portion of his testimony, recalling an event that not only never happened, but couldn't have happened given his uniform.

A very tiny insignificant portion, yes. We do know that. Like I said before if you want to throw his entire testimony out over that then that is fine. There are still the two hotel employees.

Have you ever tried to run in mass provided shoes? They're universally shit, and Dorner was a big dude. I'm not trying to give him a pass on it, but it's not exactly a "oh shit, look at this trouble making badass over here" moment we're discussing.

Yes, I have. They work just fine. That being said I agree that by itself isn't a big deal.

No excuse. You can take him down hard, but you can't beat the shit out of him once he's down and on the ground. Period. No excuses, no exceptions. I don't care what he did or says, you're a police officer. You're held (in theory, never in practice) to a higher standard.

If someone goes down to the ground and they continue to fight then you can continue to use force against them. That's legal use of force regardless of your personal opinion. It became excessive because they failed to make any attempts to handcuff him until far later and instead choose to continue striking him with a baton any time he tried to get up. Had they took advantage of the opportunities to handcuff King but were fought off each time then that use of force would not have been excessive. Anyway, I was wrong about Solano. He was disciplined for not taking action.

Solano was hired in 1990 and this incident took place in 1991. There were multiple officers there with ten plus years of experience and I think most of them were directly involved in the assault on King. There was also a supervisor there. So, he was a rookie officer in a situation in which officers are allowed to use force. That's why my question is relevant. Hell, maybe he realized right away that what they were doing was excessive but he waited for the supervisor or one of the senior officers to take action.

Every officer that had multiple years on was fired, including the bystanders. Those that were hired with Solano were suspended for 5 - 22 days. Solano got the 22 day suspension. Now 22 years later he is a captain.

At this point it comes down to whether or not you feel that a mistake should follow you your entire career even when it happens while you're still considered new.

[Lonestar]

And they still don't have a positive ID on whether or not they actually got him?


Only Cali LE could surround a building with one guy and no hostages in it, with a platoon size element of SWAT, and still fuck that up.

[Havok]

Nevermind.

[Kamakazie Sith]

And they still don't have a positive ID on whether or not they actually got him?


Only Cali LE could surround a building with one guy and no hostages in it, with a platoon size element of SWAT, and still fuck that up.

The body was severely burned so identification will probably require dental records.

How do you think they fucked up?

I watched a video on the ground Source

Sounds like a very intense firefight.

[Lonestar]

[

The body was severely burned so identification will probably require dental records.

Requires coming up on 24 hrs?

They've had a week to have dental records on hand and/or other material needed for testing. They should have had everything good to go as soon as they had a body, especially since it seems the LE Agencies had already decided to go full on Waco if he absconded in a building.

[RogueIce]

Damn. Is it wrong that I kinda hoped it was a false indentification and that the chase was still on? With all the various implications?

Yes. Yes it is absolutely wrong that you hoped this would go on with the real possibility of more people dying.

Even if every single one of his allegations is true, I don't think any of them deserve to die over it. And their families certainly don't deserve to die. And random police officers who aren't LAPD don't deserve to be ambushed and killed over the misconduct of officers in another agency.

So you hoping the chase was still on "with all the various implications" (that more officers and possibly their families would be targeted and killed) makes you a horrible, despicable person.

[Kamakazie Sith]

[

The body was severely burned so identification will probably require dental records.

Requires coming up on 24 hrs?

They've had a week to have dental records on hand and/or other material needed for testing. They should have had everything good to go as soon as they had a body, especially since it seems the LE Agencies had already decided to go full on Waco if he absconded in a building.

They have to follow forensics (I should have said homicide investigation) standards which means the medical examiner will come take custody of the body and then those examines will be conducted. Another potential variables are damage done to his jaw when he shot himself so it's hard to estimate when confirmation will be determined.

[Broomstick]

The body wasseverely burned so identification will probably require dental records.

Requires coming up on 24 hrs?

They've had a week to have dental records on hand and/or other material needed for testing. They should have had everything good to go as soon as they had a body, especially since it seems the LE Agencies had already decided to go full on Waco if he absconded in a building.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.... because I'm sure Dorner helpfully provided the name and address of his dentist prior to going on his rampage. What if he hasn't been to a dentist in years? Where are they going to find the records? Also, dentists are just as bound by HIPAA as any other medical professional, they don't just randomly hand out peoples' records. There are procedures to go through, even assuming the LAPD knows who the fuck his dentist was and doesn't have to spend time tracking that down.

Autopsies also require some time. It's not just dental records, the legal requirements mean more than just matching teeth, especially if the asshole blew his jaw off leaving little in the way of teeth to examine. If he did that, between that and the fire damage they might wind up needing DNA to identify him sure.

Because, you know, no matter how certain it seems that Dorner was the only occupant, and thus you want to conclude the body pulled out out the ruin is his, there is still the possibility that there was at least one other person inside, unknown to the authorities, and that person is the deceased and Dorner escaped yet again. Don't you think it's wise to be absolutely certain who died in that fire, rather than risk this guy being lose without knowing about it?

[Dominarch's Hope]

Wouldn't the dpt have his dental records from his years on the force anyways?

Other than that, if it turns out that wasnt Dorner or that he escaped and the burn victims were hostages....how big of a shitstorm would that be?

[Broomstick]

Wouldn't the dpt have his dental records from his years on the force anyways?

Why would his employer have his dental records? (I'm assuming "dpt" stands for "department", as in "police department" - try to avoid potentially ambiguous abbreviations in the future)

Other than that, if it turns out that wasnt Dorner or that he escaped and the burn victims were hostages....how big of a shitstorm would that be?

The manhunt would resume, that's all. Oh, and there would be another dead person on the tally for this whole thing.

[Lonestar]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.... because I'm sure Dorner helpfully provided the name and address of his dentist prior to going on his rampage. What if he hasn't been to a dentist in years? Where are they going to find the records?

The Navy. Even if he was a reservist he almost certainly had to have a annual check done. Coworker of mine was a reservest until recently and once a year he did a dental check with navy docs.

Also, dentists are just as bound by HIPAA as any other medical professional,

Not if they're USN, they ain't. Different rules.

they don't just randomly hand out peoples' records. There are procedures to go through, even assuming the LAPD knows who the fuck his dentist was and doesn't have to spend time tracking that down.

Again, as simple as calling the Navy.

[weemadando]

Have you seen the hilarity of "we didn't intentionally burn the cabin down?"

No, I'm sure you didn't, after all its not like 30k+ people were listening to the radio feed of officers talking about burning it down and ordering up "burners", which is a curious label to apply to CS canisters given the outcome and prior incidents involving CS.

Maybe there is in fact nothing to it, but they seem to forget that everything that was being said was broadcast to thousands, many of whom were recording it. Makes it harder to declare your outright innocence.

[Mr Bean]

Maybe there is in fact nothing to it, but they seem to forget that everything that was being said was broadcast to thousands, many of whom were recording it. Makes it harder to declare your outright innocence.

Here's the thing weemadando, when your being shot at and are exchanging information to other people also being shot at, being politically correct tends to slip your mind. Also using veiled innuendo to hide your intentions from later review is much harder. Even if Dorner was only shooting at any one group of police officers at a time, he can quite easily keep them suppressed by not giving a fig for ammo conservation and blind firing. And while these police officers are under gunfire they believe directed at them they will be blunt and speak in a way that's going to look bad in a court room situation.

Toss in the facts I can't get a Vegas bookie to give me odds that one or two of them were reservists and you get the mindset that looks at Dorner and sees something different. The Cop sees suspect in a building, armed and dangerous, we need tear gas, flash bangs and time. The Reservist who is a cop sees enemy occupied structure, engage with HE, Flamers or call in arty to break up the enemy's cover and drive him into the open.

*Edit
I believe I made this point in a previous cop thread, we have a lurking issue in America of the number of police officers who's also served in a warzone and got that mindset engrained in them on how to solve things the military way. No the peace officer way, but the military way which generally speaking is about "neutralizing targets" not arresting criminals.

[Stark]

What a classic post. It really speaks to many of the challenges facing law enforcement in America!

[Formless]

I believe I made this point in a previous cop thread, we have a lurking issue in America of the number of police officers who's also served in a warzone and got that mindset engrained in them on how to solve things the military way. No the peace officer way, but the military way which generally speaking is about "neutralizing targets" not arresting criminals.

Then maybe we should stop hiring people who literally view their home soil the same way they view an occupied country? Because if anything, this makes their attitudes look more horrible, not less.

[weemadando]

Why maintain a firefight anyway? Initially, to keep him pinned while units arrive, sure. But when you have a mountain smothered in blue and tan with multiple air units overhead, why not get some spotters emplaced, keep up air support and pull back to wait him out or catch him in the open trying to flee?

Why continue to risk the lives of officers and any potential hostages with a protracted and unnecessary gun fight?

[Meest]

Why maintain a firefight anyway? Initially, to keep him pinned while units arrive, sure. But when you have a mountain smothered in blue and tan with multiple air units overhead, why not get some spotters emplaced, keep up air support and pull back to wait him out or catch him in the open trying to flee?

Why continue to risk the lives of officers and any potential hostages with a protracted and unnecessary gun fight?

Only thing I can think of for them to press the issue is the whole get it done before they lose light. Even then it was reported that lights were being trucked to them and arriving at the same time they started assaulting the place. Just overall reeks of suspicion, what is the standard procedure? I would think it would be wait it out, especially with no hostages. If you watch the ground video they were pretty close and the guy throwing grenades in even closer, they didn't have to put themselves in that position. How dangerous is one guy randomly shooting out of windows, they had dozens if not hundreds of guys covering the place and in cover, how would he even get some well aimed shots off without return fire taking him out.

[Broomstick]

they don't just randomly hand out peoples' records. There are procedures to go through, even assuming the LAPD knows who the fuck his dentist was and doesn't have to spend time tracking that down.

Again, as simple as calling the Navy.

Military guys - do you think that if the LAPD called the Navy and asked for Dorner's dental x-rays the LAPD would get them within 24 hours or not?

Also, what does this claimed "annual check" consist of? If there aren't x-rays being taken it's unlikely any record would be useful in forensics. It's really the x-rays that forensics work from, not some written note or some such.

[Mr Bean]

Military guys - do you think that if the LAPD called the Navy and asked for Dorner's dental x-rays the LAPD would get them within 24 hours or not?

Also, what does this claimed "annual check" consist of? If there aren't x-rays being taken it's unlikely any record would be useful in forensics. It's really the x-rays that forensics work from, not some written note or some such.

Yearly checkup is a full dental exam at least once per year which includes getting poked and prodded by a dentist and dental x-rays. They should have Dorners stuff on file and given current Navy filing systems they should be able to produce his dental x-rays within a day if he stayed station at his last duty station for at least a year. Navy medical records are currently electronic with a paper backup or were as of last year. So yes walking down to his local medical facility going into the giant bins and finding D would not be hard if anyone remember to make the call.