Britain and France defeating Japan w/o America

[The Duchess of Zeon]

They sank half our battle fleet in a single attack, sounds pretty successful to me versus the Japanese record versus Russia.

[Dominarch's Hope]

They sank half our battle fleet in a single attack, sounds pretty successful to me versus the Japanese record versus Russia.

Most if not all of which was refloated because the Japanese completely lacked the capability to land troops and fuck up Pearl Harbor. And they missed the carriers.

In contrast, Russian lost its pacific fleet, then sent its baltic fleet, and lost that too.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Yes, and still had the Black Sea Fleet. Whereas the Japanese were fucking broke.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Yes, and still had the Black Sea Fleet. Whereas the Japanese were fucking broke.

And how useful was the Black Sea Fleet in that theater? It wasnt. At all. That would have been, if anything, an even more mutinous trip.

And the fact that the Japanese were broke would have only have mattered if the Russians could keep pressing the attack. But thanks to the political situation at home which could most kindly described as volatile, it simply impossible for the Russians to stay in. In fact, occupying and holding down Poland took more troops than were ever deployed to Manchuria.

The US, on the other hand, was not nearly so unstable as the waning Russian Empire. In order for it to be comparable, something like the Bonus Army showing up armed to the teeth with rifles and Tommy guns for those who could acquire them would have had to have happened.

[PainRack]

Are you saying that they could take on the air power that would be there? Its questionable.

But frankly, the entire OP is questionable. But its fairly rude to go about the debate in that way....

So, since the OP, for the sake of discussion, demands that the Japanese initiate the war, what are the most likley locations for the initial attacks and battles?

Its.... entirely possible. What Sea Skimmer was suggesting was a scenario where the British deployed more airpower to Malaya, as opposed to the OP where America isn't in the fight against Japan and a hypothetical Germany didn't start WW2.A possible scenario if Hitler had died earlier, although the counterfactuals will tie discussion up in knots.

Since the British would had concentrated most of their airpower in the north at Kota Bahru and Kuala Lumpur, they would had been neutralised in the opening salvo of a surprise attack if the Japanese still had launched from Indo China and the like. Especially since the RAF/Australian Air force didn't historically mount vigorous recon, and the initial air planning didn't plan for this either..... but this ignores various political restraints on British military planning as well as the lack of resources and etc, which was why I conceded the statement made. Or in other words, it rests on the British still being as incompetent as they in the original timeline, but much of their 'incompetence' rests purely on the political, resource and military constraints of being a secondary theatre during wartime. If they had somehow managed to send that many planes and units, a possible scenario if Europe was not at war, it would not be historical to argue that that incompetence will still rest.


Interestingly, there is a paper about how even though the British had the planes(if they had not supplied Stalin for example), they still would not have been able to create a Far East Air force along the lines demanded by officers in Malaya due to lack of shipping, units formation and other logistical constraints. Can't remember the paper name though.........

One of the problems was of course just.... time. It will take months for planes from Britain to reach Malaya using ships, so planes shifted to Stalin will simply not reach Singapore.The Far East Reinforcement route in reality simply failed to materialise, and indeed, given the absolutely poor(read none) staffwork for it, won't. Seriously. An idea that problems will disappear and everything will go smoothly once war appears...................Just what was the RAF smoking???

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Russian Empire was one of the most rapidly modernizing states in the world in 1905 in terms of industrial capacity. A stronger administration could have suppressed dissent and conducted a major offensive in Manchuria. There are a variety of options for the fleet, too. I've never understood why the first wasn't sent around via America toward Petropavlovsk, which wasn't blocked by a narrow channel like the Strait of Tsushima where the Japanese would absolutely know that the fleet would have to pass (not having the range to take the le Perouse straits). The Japanese blocking access would have been hard, and then the breakout for Vladivostok would be made easy by the sheer number of channels through the Kuriles, not all of which could be covered.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Russian Empire was one of the most rapidly modernizing states in the world in 1905 in terms of industrial capacity.

Which is why the accomplishements of Stalin are less impressive overall. He was building on stuff that was already being done. The Russian Empire was already an industrial nation, it just had plenty of room to grow.

A stronger administration could have suppressed dissent and conducted a major offensive in Manchuria. There are a variety of options for the fleet, too. I've never understood why the first wasn't sent around via America toward Petropavlovsk, which wasn't blocked by a narrow channel like the Strait of Tsushima where the Japanese would absolutely know that the fleet would have to pass (not having the range to take the le Perouse straits). The Japanese blocking access would have been hard, and then the breakout for Vladivostok would be made easy by the sheer number of channels through the Kuriles, not all of which could be covered.

Czar Nicholas the Second. For all your questions about the lack of competency regarding the late-era Czarist Russia.

Just not sending a fleet period and maybe moving the fleet there up to Vladivostok before the war would help. Anything that keeps the Russians fighting for just six more months to a year would mean a total reversal of OTL.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

So your post consisted of a total non sequitur, a lame "look at me I know something" that is frankly the most simplistic comment ever made on this board, and then agreeing with me and thereby invalidating your position viz. Japan generally? Awesome! Concession accepted, btw.

[Sea Skimmer]

Russian Empire was one of the most rapidly modernizing states in the world in 1905 in terms of industrial capacity. A stronger administration could have suppressed dissent and conducted a major offensive in Manchuria. There are a variety of options for the fleet, too. I've never understood why the first wasn't sent around via America toward Petropavlovsk, which wasn't blocked by a narrow channel like the Strait of Tsushima where the Japanese would absolutely know that the fleet would have to pass (not having the range to take the le Perouse straits).

I don't think the destroyers could have survived the Barents Sea in terms of endurance or seaworthiness, and refueling would be a problem in general. Some people at the time though did predict that Rozhestvensky would sail all the way around Australia to avoid torpedo boat ambush.

[Dominarch's Hope]

So your post consisted of a total non sequitur, a lame "look at me I know something" that is frankly the most simplistic comment ever made on this board, and then agreeing with me and thereby invalidating your position viz. Japan generally? Awesome! Concession accepted, btw.

What concession?

I have conceded nothing.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Look up this splendid chap named Captain Needa and replace the word "apology" with "concession". You are Him. That's kind of been the tradition of the board for more than a decade. Have fun with Lord Vader!

[Simon_Jester]

[raises eyebrow]

Being a relatively late arrival myself... you know, I never made the connection between "concession accepted" and the Vader quote. Huh.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Look up this splendid chap named Captain Needa and replace the word "apology" with "concession". You are Him. That's kind of been the tradition of the board for more than a decade. Have fun with Lord Vader!

I havent conceded jack and shit. You havent even pointed out what the alleged concession points to.

Try again, you meandering bitch.

[Beowulf]

Look up this splendid chap named Captain Needa and replace the word "apology" with "concession". You are Him. That's kind of been the tradition of the board for more than a decade. Have fun with Lord Vader!

I would properly characterize it as a tradition of the board since before there was a board.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

No, I'm not going to try again, you already conceded your argument, and you cannot take it back. Thanks for the compliment, btw. Concession Accepted, Dominarch's Hope! It was given per this:

agreeing with me and thereby invalidating your position viz. Japan generally. And I'll cite your own posts back at you if you don't back down.


And yes, Beowulf, I imagine you're absolutely right. It indeed predates the baord.