WWII Alternate History

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Post by Bartman »

Perinquus wrote:I'm well aware of the problems of logistics. And you are right as far as the port facilties of Tripoli are concerned. They are limited in what they could bring in. But you seem to be neglecting to mention that that was not the only port available to the Afrika Korps by the time it was in a position to make a thrust toward Egypt. Tobruk, which fell to the Germans, was several hundred miles further to the east, closer to the objectives of Alexandria and the Suez canal. This will rather seriously shorten the German supply lines, and alleviate those problems of transport. Rommel understood this, which is why he did not doubt his ability to take these objectives, given reinforcements and more regular supplies.
The problem is you keep using Tobruk before it is available. Tobruk is only a viable Axis port after the British have been driven out of the East Med. Rommel cannot be supplied out of it until the Axis have Suez. Before then the British will sink anything that comes near Tobruk.
Perinquus wrote:If Alexandria can be captured, however, the RN has to abandon the eastern Med, as they have no other base. This will also sever the supply line to Malta, assuring its capitulation or abandonment. With the British stranglehold on his supply lines gone, and with Tobruk and Alexandria in his hands, Rommel could bring in ample supplies with which to seize the Egyptian Delta, Palestine, and Syria.

The crucial battle was El Alamein. After the loss of Tobruk, General Ritchie had lost the confidence to lead the 8th Army, so Auchinleck took direct command, and withdrew to El Alamein, which was only 60 miles from Alexandria. El Alamein was literally the last ditch defense for Egypt and the Middle East.

It was crucial for the Axis. The British were close to their supply sources, and had many more tanks, auircraft, guns and troops. Rommel, on the other hand, was at the extreme end of a long and tenuous supply line, and the Italians did not dare sens convoys to Mersa Matruh for fear of the Royal Navy. In other words, Rommel had to sieze El Alamein at once, or he had lost the campaign.

After capturing Mersa Matruh on 26 June, Rommel reached El Alamein on the 30th. Rommel believed Auchinleck had concentrated his tanks north of the Qattara Depression. He hadn't. They were still in the desert to the southwest, trying desperately to reach El Alamein. In the meantime, the British defenses consisted of four boxes of infantry between the sea and the depression, with the intervals covered by small, mobile columns. Had Rommel struck at once, he could have rushed into Alexandria and the Nile Delta. He didn't, and thus lost the campaign.
The problem is when Rommel reached El Alamein he had roughly 2,000 infantry and 65 operational tanks, all of which grossly needed significant maintenance work. All of his forces were operating on food, munitions and fuel which had been plundered from the British supply depot at Tobruk and he had nearly run through that. Quite literally even if he had won at El Alamein he didn't have enough fuel to finish the drive to Alexandria. Had he pressed the attack on the 30th, Rommel would have used up all his remaining stores. Then he would have been stuck at El Alamein until reinforcements and resupply came anyway. He would have been stuck there without food, munitions and fuel. And opposing him, as you so kindly pointed out, was a force that out matched him in tanks, aircraft, guns and troops.
Perinquus wrote:Once again... it is not a few supply starved divisions. With Tripoli, Tobruk, and Alexandria in German hands, the port and road situation is not nearly so bad, thus it becomes possible to supply a larger force, which is available, because the Germans don't have any troops tied down on a Russian front.
Sure if somehow they capture Alexandria then Palestine and Trans-Jordan can be taken. But then what about Iraq? That is your stated goal right? The problem is your German divisions end up at the end of just as long of a supply line in Iraq as they were in Libya. And this time they don't have a convenient port to capture. The British are going to be on interior lines, with good supply, and a solid rail system. The Germans are going to running low on everything, and as the roads in Trans-Jordan are no better than in Libya they still won't be able to supply more than 8-9 divisions. And none of this delivers a blow that will knock the British out of the war. Which means pretty soon they will be dealing with the Americans and possibly the Soviets as well.
Perinquus wrote:And just what large forces are the British going to put on the Germans' flank on the Upper Nile? The British forces in Palestine, Syria and Libya numbered only 7 divisions. The British had no other substantial forces in the Middle East. They're not going to be moving divisions in from Iraq, when Rasid Ali raised his revolt, the British had to move troops into Iraq from the Transjordan to oppose it.
Well the South African divisions for one. As you may remember they refused to allow their troops to be used outside of Africa. So there are a couple of divisions right there. And I can think of a half dozen other divisions floating around the Commonwealth that could be freed up for action in Upper Egypt. And all of these could be supplied from the Red Sea ports in Sudan
Perinquus wrote: Auchinleck and Churchill were both sweating Alamein. They understood the possible consequences if the British had lost there.
Of course they were. They didn't have the information we do. They didn't know what the German supply situation was actually like. All they knew was Rommel kept pulling miracles out of his hat. They played it safe and assumed this was because the supply issues had been resolved. Churchill also ordered the invasion of Madagascar to prevent the Japanese using it as a submarine base. Never mind the fact that today we know that it was an impossibility.
Perinquus wrote:Well seeing as most of his staff, a large number of senior officers in OKW, and Rommel himself also believed in this strategy, I would not be so quick to dismiss it so sneeringly.
Why not. The weakest point of German planning was always logistics. From the OKW on down whenever inconvenient logistical facts raised their heads, they were frequently ignored. Some times ad hoc solutions were made by local commanders, such as the capture of enemy dumps in France and Libya. And sometimes their lack of planning came around and bit them on their asses, like in Stalingrad.
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Post by Perinquus »

I grant you, the German logistics problems are serious, but I am not convinced they are insurmountable. And this is about the only strategy that has even a possibility of keeping Germany from eventually being overrun once war has broken out. If the Germans can't execute operation Sea Lion (and they probably can't make it work in '41), then their only alternative to take the British out of the war is a Middle Eastern strategy (which can also potentially solve their oil shortage problems). If they are still engaged with Britain by 1943, Stalin might sieze the opportunity to invade from the east. This is a pretty big throw of the dice, but there's not much else they can do with even a hope of working.
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Post by Bartman »

Perinquus wrote:I grant you, the German logistics problems are serious, but I am not convinced they are insurmountable. And this is about the only strategy that has even a possibility of keeping Germany from eventually being overrun once war has broken out. If the Germans can't execute operation Sea Lion (and they probably can't make it work in '41), then their only alternative to take the British out of the war is a Middle Eastern strategy (which can also potentially solve their oil shortage problems). If they are still engaged with Britain by 1943, Stalin might sieze the opportunity to invade from the east. This is a pretty big throw of the dice, but there's not much else they can do with even a hope of working.
Well I think we can agree on this. Attacking the Soviets, while the British remained undefeated, was insane. And a Mediteranian campaign is their only hope of defeating the British. Nor do I think the logistics in the Mediteranian are completely insurmountable. However I think they are insurmountable for the Germans. What the Germans need most is an Eisenhower, someone who thinks logistics first and tactics second. And simply put they didn't have one. They need to put a focus on shipbuilding. They need to find a way to lay rail quickly, cheeply, and efficiently. And unless you have someone working on resolving these issues by June '40 it is probably too late. Because in late '42 the Americans are going to launch Torch and by then the logistics become impossible. And sooner or later Stalin is going to get itchy as well. All in all I'm glad I wasn't on the German high command in '41.
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Post by Typhonis 1 »

What if in this scenario Germany doesnt declare war on the US?
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Post by MKSheppard »

Typhonis 1 wrote:What if in this scenario Germany doesnt declare war on the US?
That's the kicker. No way FDR could have pushed the
American people into declaring war on Germany, not
after Japan had attacked us at Pearl Harbor.
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Post by Perinquus »

Bartman wrote:
Perinquus wrote:I grant you, the German logistics problems are serious, but I am not convinced they are insurmountable. And this is about the only strategy that has even a possibility of keeping Germany from eventually being overrun once war has broken out. If the Germans can't execute operation Sea Lion (and they probably can't make it work in '41), then their only alternative to take the British out of the war is a Middle Eastern strategy (which can also potentially solve their oil shortage problems). If they are still engaged with Britain by 1943, Stalin might sieze the opportunity to invade from the east. This is a pretty big throw of the dice, but there's not much else they can do with even a hope of working.
Well I think we can agree on this. Attacking the Soviets, while the British remained undefeated, was insane. And a Mediteranian campaign is their only hope of defeating the British. Nor do I think the logistics in the Mediteranian are completely insurmountable. However I think they are insurmountable for the Germans. What the Germans need most is an Eisenhower, someone who thinks logistics first and tactics second. And simply put they didn't have one. They need to put a focus on shipbuilding. They need to find a way to lay rail quickly, cheeply, and efficiently. And unless you have someone working on resolving these issues by June '40 it is probably too late. Because in late '42 the Americans are going to launch Torch and by then the logistics become impossible. And sooner or later Stalin is going to get itchy as well. All in all I'm glad I wasn't on the German high command in '41.
Actually, Operation Torch is not inevitable. Hitler only made it inevitable by insanely declaring war on the U.S. in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor. At a stroke, he solved Roosevelt's and Churchill's biggest political problem - how to get the U.S. to tackle Germany first. By the terms of the Tripartite Pact, Germany was not obligated to come to Japan's aid in a military campaign initiated by the Japanese. The reverse was also true, which is why Japan never declared war one the U.S.S.R. - much to Stalin's relief, since this allowed him to shift troops from his eastern provinves inorder to meet the German threat. The Tripartite pact only obligated the signatories to come to each other's aid if another was attacked.

Had Hitler not declared war on the United States, Roosevelt could not have mustered the support in Congress for a declaration of war against Germany. The American public would have seen Germany as Europe's problem, and America had it's own war to fight with Japan.
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Post by phongn »

MKSheppard wrote:
Typhonis 1 wrote:What if in this scenario Germany doesnt declare war on the US?
That's the kicker. No way FDR could have pushed the
American people into declaring war on Germany, not
after Japan had attacked us at Pearl Harbor.
I'm not quite sure on this, though. The undeclared war in the Atlantic might be enough to get one side or another to finally declare war on each other.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

phongn wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:
Typhonis 1 wrote:What if in this scenario Germany doesnt declare war on the US?
That's the kicker. No way FDR could have pushed the
American people into declaring war on Germany, not
after Japan had attacked us at Pearl Harbor.
I'm not quite sure on this, though. The undeclared war in the Atlantic might be enough to get one side or another to finally declare war on each other.
I seriously doubt the peace could last very long into 1942 if at all, not with both sides sinking each others warships.
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Perinquus wrote:I grant you, the German logistics problems are serious, but I am not convinced they are insurmountable. And this is about the only strategy that has even a possibility of keeping Germany from eventually being overrun once war has broken out. If the Germans can't execute operation Sea Lion (and they probably can't make it work in '41), then their only alternative to take the British out of the war is a Middle Eastern strategy (which can also potentially solve their oil shortage problems). If they are still engaged with Britain by 1943, Stalin might sieze the opportunity to invade from the east. This is a pretty big throw of the dice, but there's not much else they can do with even a hope of working.
Sealion could never have succeeded at any point. By 1941 it's just ridiculous. The British felt that 52 squadrons of modern fighters where needed to stop a German attack prewar, and they won the battle of Britain with less. By mid 1941 they had over 100 squadrons of Spitfires alone on the British isles.
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Post by Bartman »

Sea Skimmer wrote: I seriously doubt the peace could last very long into 1942 if at all, not with both sides sinking each others warships.
Plus the US was actively invading Atlantic territories: Greenland, Iceland, Dutch Guiana. And each time FDR authorized this the public endorsed it. There is a good chance the FDR doesn't even need a declaration to occupy French North Africa. I think the following timeline show the direction the US was headed. All of these are 1941.

29-Jan British and American hold joint staff conversations
11-Mar Lend-Lease Act passed
24-Mar $50M in Yugoslavian assets frozen when Prince Paul signs Tripartite Pact
27-Mar Congress approves initial $7B lend-lease appropriation
30-Mar Coast Guard seizes 64 Axis ships in U.S. ports for lend-lease convoys
2-Apr 10 Coast Guard ships transferred to Great Britain
9-Apr US occupies Greenland
11-Apr U.S. destroyer Niblack fires depth charges at German U-boat
28-Apr $50M in Greek assets frozen after Greece fell to Hitler
21-May 1st U.S. ship sunk, freighter Robin Moor
26-May German battleship Bismarck located by US-built PBY flown by US pilot
27-May Unlimited national emergency declared
6-Jun 80 foreign merchant ships seized in U.S. ports
14-Jun All remaining Axis funds in U.S. frozen
16-Jun All German consulates closed, diplomats expelled
7-Jul US occupies Iceland. Gallup poll shows 61% approve
26-Jul United States declares oil embargo on Japan.
14-Aug Roosevelt and Churchill announce Atlantic Charter
4-Sep German torpedo attack on USS Greer opens tacit shooting war in Atlantic. Gallup poll shows 62% approve
28 Sep The Lend-Lease act is expanded to include the Soviet Union.
1-Oct First Soviet Protocol signed by U.S., Great Britain, and USSR at Moscow.
31-Oct 1st U.S. warship lost , destroyer Reuben James
5-Nov Gallup poll shows 81% favored arming merchant ships & 61% favored ships entering war zones
19-Nov Gallup poll shows 72% regard "defeating Nazism" as "the biggest job facing the nation"
24-Nov U.S. Army occupies Dutch Guiana

The US was heading fairly inexoribly toward war with Germany. While I'm sure FDR would have had a hard time getting a Germany first strategy. I see no reason to believe the US would be at war by mid '42.
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Post by Coyote »

Actually, I had an odd scenario thought up that would have saved some difficulty-- it is, of course, unlikely given Hitler's mental instability...

Hitler would insist that the Jews "owe a great debt" to Germany, and let's say that out of 6 million Jews there would have been maybe 250,000 young men of draftable age that were fit. These men would be inducted into the Heer into "Jewish Rifles" divisions-- several of them could have been created, and outfitted with basic infantry weapons (like a typical, non-Waffen-SS Wehrmacht unit).

These several divisions would be sent to North Afrika to secure Rommel's advances. The are told that if they assist in the defense of the Reich, then they will be allowed to take themselves, their families, and nothing else to Palestine where they can do as they please so long as they never return to Germany.

Remember, Germany wanted Russia, not the MidEast, and wasted a lot of resources of the Final Solution. And it cannot be argued that the Germans could not have put to use several more divisions of troops on any front. The "Jewish Rifles" could have either been front liners or held on to tertiary areas like North Africa or the Balkans, allowing "proper Germanic" soldiers kill Slavs.

If Hitler had then conentrated on Russia, ignoring England (on the ropes after Dunkirk) and convinced the Japanese to make threatening moves towards Siberia without actually doing anything (fear of the Japanese kept lots of Reserves in Siberia), the Reich could have pummeled Russia.

I still think, in the long run, the Eastern Front would have bogged down and at most the Reich would have been able to incorporate much of the Baltic states all the way down to the Black Sea areas into new Germania, with an exhausted and paranoid USSR hunkered down for a Cold War with them. At that point, the "Jewish Rifles" would have been released and sent packing, but as for the other "untermenschen" I dunno, exile may not be something Hitler would be willing to grant...
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

A bunch of infantry will hamper Rommel, not aid him. Even with vast mile wide mine fields and effective anti tank guns, infantry where still limited to directly protecting themselves in the desert. Offensively they where needed to reduce infantry fortifications, but that work came after the armored battles where decided. On the Eastern Front, thousands of T-34's grind more infantry into the mud and snow along with sheets of artillery.

Germany needed more manpower, but they needed more then a quarter of a million, and they needed them manning heavy weapons.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Jews might have contributed substantially to the war effort, considering that more than six million of them were killed during the Holocaust. We’re talking about at least another quarter million men under arms – some of them decorated veterans of the Great War. Add to this tens of thousands of Communists, Gypsies, Trade Unionists, and others and you have a fairly appreciable number of men.

Would Germany have won the war with their services? Doubtful. They would have certainly prolonged it, but I’d never presume to doubt the ultimate outcome. With or without the extra manpower, Germany would never have been able to launch Sea Lion or secure a lasting foothold against Soviet forces on the Eastern Front.

As for Rommel? Only another division (mixed motorized forces and a massive logistical attachment) would have been of any worth. And that’s assuming the men who landed in Crete could instead have captured Malta. One must also understand that logistical efforts themselves consumed vast percentages of the food, fuel, and supplies ultimately destined for the Afrika Korps as a whole. Millions of litres of fuel were consumed merely in transit. That excludes the additional (and at times, relative to the entire force, quite substantial) losses to aircraft, capture, or mechanical failure on a daily basis. Put simply, Hitler wasn’t going to “win big” in Africa without (A) the collapse of Malta and (B) the reinforcement of Erwin Rommel with a full division of motorized troops and attached transports prior to even the collapse of Tobruk. By the time of El Alamain, the Desert Fox was already too petered-out. Best would be the capture of Gibraltar on top of all this – perhaps via Spain (who wasn’t about to accede). This ignores the fact that a whole new mechanized or motorized division would be nearly impossible to find.

It’s also interesting to note the quickening pace of war. Whereas Hitler’s key allies (ie, Romania, Hungary, and others) were militarily potent as of 1936, by the time of Barbarossa, most of their weapons were utterly outdated. Hitler compounded this circumstance by refusing to sell Bucharest, Sofia, Budapesh, or others any kind of machinery or modern equipment for fear they’d compete with the Whermacht. This extended to transfers of artillery from behind the lines, vital moulds for modern fighting vehicles, or even the best-available small arms. We’re talking about a complete failure to arm on a level that might have allowed these Axis pawns to properly defend themselves against a Soviet counterattack.
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Post by Lord MJ »

There's a large chance that Germany and Britain would have allied against France (why France was singled out is anybodies guess, there's just something about that nation that people love to hate.)


In fact even during the early years of Hitler rule, Hitler actually wanted to form an alliance with Great Britain. It sounds crazy, but it's true.
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Post by Bartman »

Lord MJ wrote:There's a large chance that Germany and Britain would have allied against France (why France was singled out is anybodies guess, there's just something about that nation that people love to hate.)


In fact even during the early years of Hitler rule, Hitler actually wanted to form an alliance with Great Britain. It sounds crazy, but it's true.
Well it is common knowledge that Hiter liked and respected the British. However I have never seen anything to suggest that any British government ever would have allied with Germany against France. Do you have anything (besides Hitler's delusions) to suggest that Britain was in any way likely to go to war against France?
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Post by Typhonis 1 »

What if instead of preahing hate against the Jews he preached hatred against Poland?
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Post by MKSheppard »

Typhonis 1 wrote:What if instead of preahing hate against the Jews he preached hatred against Poland?

"Poland's existence is intolerable, incompatible with the essential
conditions of Germany's life . Poland must go and will go... must
be one of the fundamental drives of German policy... With the
disappearance of Poland will fall one of the strongest pillars of
the Versailles Peace, the hegemony of France."

- General von Seeckt (1922)


Seeckt laid the foundations for the wartime German army
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Post by GUTB »

The problem with these what-if WW2 threads is that try to invent some kind of German victory is that they alter or otherwise ignore reality to make it happen.

The hard, brutal truth that will never go away is that Germany didn't stand a chance from the get-go. In fact, they did tremendously well with what information they had, and the political/economic realties allowed for. So no matter how you twist it, anything resembling the Germany that existed in 1939-1945 would have been defeated.
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