France wants to make money off post-war Iraq...

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-13 01:42pm

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20030313-75064650.htm

France to help after war with Iraq

David R. Sands
THE WASHINGTON TIMES Published March 13, 2003

France has a "moral duty" to participate in the reconstruction of a postwar Iraq, even as it works to block a U.S.-led military strike against Saddam Hussein, French Ambassador Jean- David Levitte said yesterday.

But U.S. hopes for a major contribution from allies in the expensive rebuilding job in Iraq suffered a blow when a leading European Union foreign policy official said the deep divisions in Europe over the war could limit EU contributions after the conflict.

Mr. Levitte, at a breakfast meeting with reporters yesterday, said his country remains opposed to any U.N. resolution clearing the way for immediate military action to disarm Saddam.

But he said France was prepared to contribute to a rebuilding effort that is expected to cost tens of billions of dollars over many years.
"We don't see participation in Iraq's reconstruction as a privilege," said Mr. Levitte. "We see it as a moral duty."

The ambassador predicted it would be years before any new Iraqi government could fully exploit the country's oil reserves, and that the United States faced the choice of funding the massive humanitarian and infrastructure challenges alone or with allies.

The bill "will be huge," he said. "We consider it would be done better under a United Nations umbrella, as is being done in Afghanistan now."

Boris Nemtsov, chairman of the reformist Union of Right Forces party in the Russian State Duma, said in an interview yesterday that Russia also would be eager to participate in the reconstruction effort, despite its reservations on a war, to protect Moscow's extensive economic interests in Iraq.

"War is war and reconstruction is reconstruction," Mr. Nemtsov told reporters and editors in a luncheon at The Washington Times. "They are two different subjects."

State Department spokesman Richard Boucher confirmed yesterday the U.S. government was eager to enlist foreign governments, international organizations and private relief groups in the Iraqi reconstruction, although U.S. officials have said many potential donors are reluctant to commit during the current delicate diplomatic situation.

But EU External Affairs Commissioner Chris Patten warned that a failure to secure U.N. backing for military action would make reconstruction aid a much tougher political sell inside the 15-member union.

He told members of the European Parliament in Strasbourg, France, that it is "a simple observation of fact" that it will be "very much easier to persuade [the EU] to be generous if there is no dispute about the legitimacy of the military action that has taken place."

Mr. Levitte, speaking at a breakfast organized by the Christian Science Monitor, denied that French opposition to the United States reflected French commercial interests and claims on lucrative Iraqi oil fields.

"If we were just interested in Iraqi oil, I think we would want to join in military action as soon as possible to be present in Iraq the day after the war," he said. "Our [anti-war] position would be totally suicidal."

The early post-Saddam years are expected to bring a heavy financial burden in establishing security and rebuilding an economy staggered by more than a decade of international sanctions. But Iraq's energy and other resources have led some analysts to conclude it may present highly attractive investing opportunities in the longer term.

The Bush administration thus far has rejected calls to freeze out countries that opposed the war in the postconflict reconstruction effort, but U.S. officials have pointedly noted that a new Iraq government might take that opposition into account in their own reconstruction plans.

********

Yeah right, the froggie scum want to get in on the massive reconstruction
projects that are bound to happen in post-war iraq, after they obstructed
us at every turn...

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-03-13 01:46pm

They do not want to get involved in removing Saddam,but they want to have a part in rebuilding Iraq.
I say no way

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-13 01:51pm

I'm not at all suprised at this. The French are incredible hypocrites. Why we don't just tell them to go fuck themselves is beyond me.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » 2003-03-13 01:52pm

The insane thing is, the US government is ALREADY tendering contracts to major companies to rebuild what they will and already have destroyed, and many of the companies vying for those contracts have incredibly bad human rights records.

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-03-13 01:53pm

Ted wrote:The insane thing is, the US government is ALREADY tendering contracts to major companies to rebuild what they will and already have destroyed, and many of the companies vying for those contracts have incredibly bad human rights records.

Fuck France

give the rebuilding contracts to Canada

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-13 01:53pm

Ted wrote:The insane thing is, the US government is ALREADY tendering contracts to major companies to rebuild what they will and already have destroyed, and many of the companies vying for those contracts have incredibly bad human rights records.

Some evidence of this? A news story at least?

And what do you mean by companies with bad human rights records? Companies don't usually have human rights records.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2003-03-13 01:57pm

Your thread title is a little biased:

But he said France was prepared to contribute to a rebuilding effort that is expected to cost tens of billions of dollars over many years.
.....
The bill "will be huge," he said. "We consider it would be done better under a United Nations umbrella, as is being done in Afghanistan now."
.....
State Department spokesman Richard Boucher confirmed yesterday the U.S. government was eager to enlist foreign governments, international organizations and private relief groups in the Iraqi reconstruction,

So they want to help clean up the mess. What's wrong with that? Isn't this what Bush wants?

Second question: Isn't it up to the *Iraqis* to decide who can help and who can't help with the reconstruction, and not the *U.S.A.* ... since Bush specifically said this wasn't about conquest, but liberation? So now are we going to have a turn-about, with the U.S. dictating oil related business deals and export policy to post-war Iraq?

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-03-13 02:02pm

Hell, France is profiting right now from Iraq. Dassault, Renault, Peugot... How do Iraq's Mirage fighters keep flying? They sure as hell aren't making parts themselves. I always see lots of shiny new Renault and Peugot (not to mention German Mercedes) Army trucks in news footage. The French are sooooo fucking scared that when we do march into Baghdad, we are going to find shitloads of illegal munitions with "fabrique en france" stamped on them.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-13 02:34pm

Zoink wrote:So they want to help clean up the mess. What's wrong with that? Isn't this what Bush wants?

We want help putting back together. The problem is it seems France is angling not to help cleanup but to clean up. They seems to be positioning themselves solely to profit off pre- and post-war Iraq with offending either.

Zoink wrote:Second question: Isn't it up to the *Iraqis* to decide who can help and who can't help with the reconstruction, and not the *U.S.A.* ... since Bush specifically said this wasn't about conquest, but liberation? So now are we going to have a turn-about, with the U.S. dictating oil related business deals and export policy to post-war Iraq?

This is for the interim period rather than Iraq on it's own. I see no reason the US should dictate the policy of a free Iraq.

I think the idea is if they want to be involved at all they should help rather than sit on the sidelines until it's done and over. They want to be part of the rebuilding which will mean profit and work for the French not to mention an lead in for oil rather than philanthropic reasons. It's about the French wanting the benefits of helping with out the risks.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-03-13 02:39pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Ted wrote:The insane thing is, the US government is ALREADY tendering contracts to major companies to rebuild what they will and already have destroyed, and many of the companies vying for those contracts have incredibly bad human rights records.
Some evidence of this? A news story at least?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0308-05.htm
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030310/80/dv2et.html

desertjedi · Post by **desertjedi** » 2003-03-13 02:46pm

How dare they... "Moral Duty" indeed, I am sick of France pretending to be standing on some kind of "moral high ground" concerning Iraq. Let's not mention their involvement in Africa or the possibility of selling Saddam equipment that is on the banned list after Desert Storm. I remember reading an article that Saddam (note I said Saddam) owes France somewhere between $7-$8 Billion dollars (If I can find that article I will post a link). That's quite a reason to keep him in Iraq. Then again that's quite a reason to make sure they try to get a share of the rebuilding process.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-03-13 02:50pm

Great, the same country that invaded Germany after WWII when they wouldn't pony up now feels they have a moral obligation to help rebuild Iraq. How ironic.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-13 02:51pm

Oberleutnant wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Ted wrote:The insane thing is, the US government is ALREADY tendering contracts to major companies to rebuild what they will and already have destroyed, and many of the companies vying for those contracts have incredibly bad human rights records.
Some evidence of this? A news story at least?
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0308-05.htm
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030310/80/dv2et.html

I know the US government is lineing up contractors. I'd have been suprised if they weren't. It only makes sense for them too.

What I want to know is where did Ted get his bullshit claims about human rights records? So far all we have are some unsubstantiated claims from the biggest anti-american kook on the board. I'd like some evidence of those claims.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-13 02:53pm

I'd bet France is going to veto any resolution, but then sue when their oil contracts are terminated. Fuck, France attempted to sue South Korea when Rafale lost out in their recent fighter competition.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » 2003-03-13 02:54pm

Stormbringer wrote:What I want to know is where did Ted get his bullshit claims about human rights records? So far all we have are some unsubstantiated claims from the biggest anti-american kook on the board. I'd like some evidence of those claims.

Look up Shell Oil in Nigeria.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-13 02:56pm

Ted wrote: Look up Shell Oil in Nigeria.

That's your job.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-13 02:57pm

Ted wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:What I want to know is where did Ted get his bullshit claims about human rights records? So far all we have are some unsubstantiated claims from the biggest anti-american kook on the board. I'd like some evidence of those claims.
Look up Shell Oil in Nigeria.

Provide the evidence for your own claims. And so far I'm just seeing Halliburton and not shell.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-03-13 02:59pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:Hell, France is profiting right now from Iraq. Dassault, Renault, Peugot... How do Iraq's Mirage fighters keep flying? They sure as hell aren't making parts themselves. I always see lots of shiny new Renault and Peugot (not to mention German Mercedes) Army trucks in news footage. The French are sooooo fucking scared that when we do march into Baghdad, we are going to find shitloads of illegal munitions with "fabrique en france" stamped on them.

If anything of this is true, those deals probably wouldn't have been approved by the French government. Shiny new Mercedes trucks? UN doesn't list them and they would have never gotten an approval in the German government. Perhaps the Iraqi army acquired them through some unofficial way - for example by setting up a mock company. Anyhow, it's easy for private arms dealers to get their hands in French-made military equipment which dominates the black market with Soviet stuff.

United Nations register of arms sales
http://disarmament.un.org/UN_REGISTER.nsf

BTW, Yugoslavian security forces who did the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo used American-made Humvees...

Edit: Aw, fuck it. The UN page doesn't list those Sako TRG sniper rifles that awere supposedly used by the Serbs as well. Let's just wait if Coalition troops uncover any evidence of German or French governments secretly selling recent miitary equipment to Iraq.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » 2003-03-13 03:03pm

http://www.sierraclub.org/human-rights/nigeria/
http://www.sierraclub.org/human-rights/ ... report.pdf
http://www.africaaction.org/docs01/shel0107.htm
http://www.mcspotlight.org/beyond/companies/shell.html
http://www.waado.org/Environment/OilSpi ... Ogoni.html
http://www.progressive.org/mplove698.htm
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Boyco ... ycott.html
http://archive.greenpeace.org/~comms/ken/

This is just from a 2 minute search on Google.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-03-13 03:11pm

Why souldn't they? I hate to interrupt the rabid fancophobia but what is worng with them wanting to assist in efforts to rebuild? Hell it would be beneficial in that the Iraqis won't be pissed off at them, and Al Quaeda operatives (who will be in Iraq, though they almost certainly aren't now) won't try to blow them up.

"They didn't take part in the Arson, therefore they cannot take part in the rebuilding." What the fuck? I do not follow this line of reasoning.

As for the supposed french hypocracy, when did they say they don't want to profit from Iraqi oil? If however america moves in and sets up (interesting that they have contacted Shell Oil about reconstruction) they will be hypocrits. As many US diplomats have said "this isn't about oil." - If it wasn't they could prehaps attack North Korea, If it were about terrorism Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Yemen would be on the list. (though Pakistan is effectively unattackable.)

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-13 03:45pm

Ted wrote:http://www.sierraclub.org/human-rights/nigeria/
http://www.sierraclub.org/human-rights/ ... report.pdf
http://www.africaaction.org/docs01/shel0107.htm
http://www.mcspotlight.org/beyond/companies/shell.html
http://www.waado.org/Environment/OilSpi ... Ogoni.html
http://www.progressive.org/mplove698.htm
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Boyco ... ycott.html
http://archive.greenpeace.org/~comms/ken/

Nice but what does any of that have to do with Iraq? I'll grant you that Shell did some really bad crap, though it appears that at least part of the problem was the Nigerian government. But Shell hasn't been given the contract, Halliburton has.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-03-13 06:03pm

Shell wasn't even in the contract competition. IIRC, Fluor and Bechtel are both respected companies, and I haven't heard of the others before. Like Storm said, raving by an Anti-American kook. It's not just America that's had trouble with colonialism, explotiation, and expulsion. I'm sure some of the Cajuns in Louisiana would like their Acadian property back from Canada...

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-03-13 07:38pm

So, just because France want in on a rebuilding project they are evil?

So, if wanting to rebuild is evil, what do you call wanting to levelling the fucking joint (and indeed, continuous levelling since 1991)?

And if the US is already taken contracts for rebuilding, then I'm sorry, but this has become a war of CONQUEST, not a war for regime change.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-13 07:41pm

weemadando wrote:So, just because France want in on a rebuilding project they are evil?

So, if wanting to rebuild is evil, what do you call wanting to levelling the fucking joint (and indeed, continuous levelling since 1991)?

And if the US is already taken contracts for rebuilding, then I'm sorry, but this has become a war of CONQUEST, not a war for regime change.

Yes, we should just blast the place and let them rebuild on there own. We all know how wrong repairing damage is.

You're complaining about the US causing destruction and planning to repair it in one post. That's just stupid.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-03-14 12:58am

The Dark wrote:Shell wasn't even in the contract competition

It isn't hard to imagine why. Foreign companies are unlikely to win USAid contracts that are being handed out to the Friends of Shrub.

It's not just America that's had trouble with colonialism, explotiation, and expulsion. I'm sure some of the Cajuns in Louisiana would like their Acadian property back from Canada...

Yet another red herring from the imperialist wingnut brigade.

weemadando wrote:And if the US is already taken contracts for rebuilding, then I'm sorry, but this has become a war of CONQUEST, not a war for regime change.

Eh? Your point is eluding me.