Problems with B5

[Crown]

Does anyone thing it would be feasible for EarthGov to be able to build such large capships in the first place? How would one go about mining the materials needed and getting them into orbit? And even if some of the materials are mined from asteroids, how would you assemble an Omega-class destroyer? Aren't there difficulties with welding in the vacuum of space?

Last time I checked there was also a difficulty than going faster than the speed of light.

Yes that was trollish, and I am sorry but I found it somewhat funny.
No harm intended.

[Defiant]

Last time I checked there was also a difficulty than going faster than the speed of light.

Yes that was trollish, and I am sorry but I found it somewhat funny.
No harm intended.

Very nice! No harm done

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

1. Why in the f*ck would EarthGov put its main transfer point for the Sol system at Io? Io is the closest Galilean moon to Jupiter, and I know the space in the area is hit with everything from Jupiter's magnetic field to ejected material from Io. I would think that Mars would be a better choice, or how about having it at Luna in the first place.

Yes, a better place might have been one of the other gas giants. Granted they too have fairly hefty magnetic fields and radiation belts...

2. If they wanted to have a place of diplomacy, why build a huge space station? Why not try to find a planet in neutral space that can be at least partially terraformed? The engineering feat of building a rotating space station 5 miles long (canon measurement, not one I share) would be incredible, even in the 23rd century.

Actually building it on a large space station, or hollowed out asteroid, makes a certain amount of sense. It costs a fair bit of energy to continually pitch ships out from the bottom of a planet's gravity well, whereas you only need miniscule amounts of energy to leave a station.

3. B5 at least makes a passing attempt at realism when it comes to space combat. But why don't they ever encounter fuel problems? You see the White Star fleet flying all over the place, but you never hear of or even see a glimpse of tankers, fuel convoys, etc.

Support ships aren't very sexy. It's a problem with all of popular sci-fi.

4. How feasible is it to have a ship with an independent rotating section? I think the Omega-class destroyers look cool, but somehow it seems wrong. I have a BS in Computer science, and only passing knowledge of engineering, so maybe I'm offbase with this one.

Fairly feasible, though they probably should've used a cylinder of some sort. Having another section rotating in the opposite direction might help too. Of course, the rotating section is only useful when the ship isn't accelerating or maneuvering . . . if the ship was undergoing any serious maneuvering or acceleration you'd probably want to lock down the rotating section.

[Crown]

Anyone give any thought to why the Centauri and Narn's don't advance to 'first one' status? That's my one major gripe with B5.

[Typhonis 1]

Actually since fuel doesnt seem to be a problem in B5 .Its is very easy to create gravity simply have the ship constantly thrust.Newtons law and simply reorienting the design will allow for easy gravity creation with no fancy smancy technobabale.Sure gravity would be gone when stope but would be there for travel

[Master of Ossus]

Anyone give any thought to why the Centauri and Narn's don't advance to 'first one' status? That's my one major gripe with B5.

How could they advance to such a status? Not even the Minbari were that powerful.

[XaLEv]

They're talking about in a million years. Humans and Minbari have both reached 'first one' status then.

[Master of Ossus]

Both the Narn and the Centauri were actually fairly weak races. Remember that Narn was devastated during the war, and that the Centauri empire was itself dying. It was also destroyed during the Drakh War. That probably prevented them from advancing very quickly. The Humans and Minbari, meanwhile, faced no similar problems.

Incidentally, I thought it was cool at the very end how humans appeared to evolve into Vorlons when they were leaving the cradle. That makes the series seem even more tied together and strange. What if humans were Vorlons? What a question. What awesome possibilities!

[Stravo]

Remember Kosh when he says about the Narn and Centauri: "They are a dying race, it is best to leave them alone." Sheridan replies: "The Centauri or the Narn." Kosh: "Yes." I LOVE Kosh!!!!

[Master of Ossus]

Remember Kosh when he says about the Narn and Centauri: "They are a dying race, it is best to leave them alone." Sheridan replies: "The Centauri or the Narn." Kosh: "Yes." I LOVE Kosh!!!!

Yeah. Kosh kicked ass. That was a great quote, too.

[Nephilim]

Yeah. Kosh kicked ass. That was a great quote, too.

And its true also. JMS answered a question after the episode where we see humans evolve into non-corporeal form. He said that the Minbari also reached that level, but the Centauri and Narn did not.

Kosh (both of them :p) were probably my favorite character in B5. If not them, definately Londo.

[Master of Ossus]

I liked Garibaldi and Ivonova. They were funny, and they really brought personality to the show. That was part of what made B5 such a great series--none of its characters were stereotypical (or its races), all of them could surprise you, and yet all of them were consistent and deep. That is truly impressive in a television world dominated by really attractive and one dimensional women, and courageous, muscular, one dimensional men.

[Isil`Zha]

Remember Kosh when he says about the Narn and Centauri: "They are a dying race, it is best to leave them alone." Sheridan replies: "The Centauri or the Narn." Kosh: "Yes." I LOVE Kosh!!!!

Heh.. go Naranek go...

[Patrick Degan]

The rotating section part is really bad science. It is a huge violation of Newton's Third Law. Basically, if the habital section of B5 is rotating, than the spine should be rotating in the opposite direction.

True, although you could compensate by putting thrusters on the spine and retro-firing to keep it from rotating in the opposite direction. Not that this excuses the show; no such thrusters are mentioned or shown, but they would be necessary if the spine's mass is smaller than that of the rotating section, otherwise the spine would just spin up while the "rotating" section gains very little angular velocity.

This issue has piqued my curiosity from time to time. In his novelisation of 2001: A Space Odyssey, Arthur C. Clarke conceived of a small flywheel which would store the rotational momentum of the Discovery's carrousel should it become necessary to bring it to a halt, which presumably David Bowman did prior to his leaving the ship at Jupiter (or Saturn, depending upon whether you go with movie or novel). The eventual braking of this flywheel's motion was what was evidently responsible for the ship tumbling as it was when the crew of the Leonov found her nine years later in 2010. I'm thinking that the Babylon 5 station's axis of repose could be maintained by a reverse application of this idea: two contrarotating hubs positioned front and back within the structure of the rotational section which would spin with the same speed and act as an inertial stabiliser to cancel out the transfer of angular momentum to the frame.

I believe it was in "Thirdspace" that it was said explicitly that power was needed to keep rotation going.

Really? I hope they didn't imply that this power requirement was large. The only way to bleed off angular momentum is to emit some kind of matter or energy which carries this momentum away. Given ultra low-friction (presumably magnetic) bearings, you're not going to be transferring momentum to the spine or emanating a lot of heat from the bearings, so where is the rotational momentum and energy going?

If the idea I cited above is feasible, that might be where the power for the rotational section is actually going to...?

[Wicked Pilot]

I'm thinking that the Babylon 5 station's axis of repose could be maintained by a reverse application of this idea: two contrarotating hubs positioned front and back within the structure of the rotational section which would spin with the same speed and act as an inertial stabiliser to cancel out the transfer of angular momentum to the frame.

Actually, Babylon 4 had two counterrotating hubs on it. Observe:







As you can somewhat see, B4 has two sections. One on the inside of the cargo spines, the other on the outside. These two sections conterrotate, producing a net angular momentum of zero. This is how B5 should have been designed.

[Patrick Degan]

I'm most familiar with the design of Babylon 4. It was also apparently twice the size of the future Babylon 5 station, according to some sources I've consulted, but I admit I'm not certain. It does appear to be a larger station than its eventual successor.

The backstory for the series puts forth the information that gaining financing for the construction of a fifth Babylon station was very difficult for the project's advocates within the Earth senate (after the loss of the first four and a few billion Earth Credits), and that most of the funding was put up by the Minbari, with the addition of a small loan from the Centauri Republic. If financing was a problem, then bugetary requirements would have demanded a scaled-down design to mollify the opposition within EarthDome and get the project back off the ground at all. In such a design, two internal contrarotators could serve the same function as B4's outer hubs while using less material in construction.

[Wicked Pilot]

In such a design, two internal contrarotators could serve the same function as B4's outer hubs while using less material in construction.

The problem with that theory is that we know from the TV show that a large portion, if not all, of B5s interior is in fact empty space.


By the way, I see you're from the Crescent City. I was just there last weekend for the purpose of seeing the Space Station IMAX film at the Aquarium. It was more awesome than a mere mortal's words can describe.

[Patrick Degan]

In such a design, two internal contrarotators could serve the same function as B4's outer hubs while using less material in construction.

The problem with that theory is that we know from the TV show that a large portion, if not all, of B5s interior is in fact empty space.

Granted, although the schematics in the Babylon 5 Security Manual still allow for the placement of the hubs in the spaces between the bottom of the habitation space and the outer hull. The alternative would be a single contrarotational flywheel which spins at a higher rate proportional to the ratio between its diametre and the rotational section's diametre to cancel out angular momentum transfer to the frame; said flywheel being located where the drivers for the rotational section are toward the station's engineering module.

Glad you enjoyed your visit to our aquarium and the IMAX theatre; a spendid experience to be certain.

[The Nomad]

Laughable given that an entire wing of ships can ride in on a jump point opened by one ship. While that one ship is recharging its jump engines the others in the wing would have fully charged weapons at the ready.

Even more laughable given "In the Beginning", when Minbari Sharlins each formed their own jump point into the solar system and were fully combat-capable the instant they came out.

Don't the Minbari have both superior engines and energy generation ? As well as kickass battleships ?

[Ender]

Because any habitable planet is snapped up rather quicky. Yes there are a fair number of them but all those closes enough are somebodies already. And I'd imagine anythigeasily terraformed is likewise claimed. Even partial terraforming is a long process and very very expensive. EarthGov has been terraforming Mars for century or so and it's still no even close to habitable. It just isnt possible to find a suitable world.

Plus there is the fact that habital planets are very rare, as the FOs keep wiping them out every time they wage war.

[Master of Ossus]

Laughable given that an entire wing of ships can ride in on a jump point opened by one ship. While that one ship is recharging its jump engines the others in the wing would have fully charged weapons at the ready.

Even more laughable given "In the Beginning", when Minbari Sharlins each formed their own jump point into the solar system and were fully combat-capable the instant they came out.

Don't the Minbari have both superior engines and energy generation ? As well as kickass battleships ?

They do, but even they require some time out of a jumpgate before engaging in combat (though it was very cool). That also does not explain how the Centauri cruiser in the same movie was able to engage and destroy the Narn Dreadnaught with a single volley of missiles before the Narn could even respond to the threat, or name an attacker.

[Patrick Degan]

Several times, ships in Babylon 5 have been able to engage an enemy coming right out of the jump-vortex. Not just the Sharlins, but also Whitestars ("Rumours, Bargains, And Lies", Thirdspace, "Endgame"), Centauri cruisers (In The Beginning, {pulse cannons were used in the attack on the Narn ship, not missiles BTW} "Darkness Ascending"). The EarthForce destroyer Agamemnon was able to open fire on the Streib ship which had snatched Sheridan upon jumping into normal space in season two's "All Alone In The Night".

This capability can be explained by one of four possible theories: the weapons' grid or jump engines are fed by a dedicated reactor; the weapons are fed off the general power grid and charging the jump engines cuts off the feed to the weapons; the weapons are firing at less than full power with the captain counting upon surprise and hitting at relatively close range before the target can fully rig its defences; the jump engines or weapons are running off a charge specifically built up prior to the jump into normal space and going into the attack.

It is known that there is a minimum down-time (ten minutes, I think) for the jump engines of any ship before they are capable of performing a second jump manoeuver; imposed either by energy limitations or the risk of burning out the componnents from overuse. If the weapons are fed off the ship's general power grid, then the likely explanation is that it is only when the jump engines are charging that power is not available for the lasers, pulse cannons, particle-beam cannons, plasma cannon, or whichever type energy weapon is mounted. Once the jump engines are no longer charging, current returns to the power grid at full levels and the weapons may be used.

[Master of Ossus]

Remember, though, that jump engines take up so much power (sometimes, apparently) that the ship exiting a jump gate is forced into a brief period of communications black out after exiting hyperspace. That is the period exploited by the Shadows when they destroyed the cruiser G'Kar sent to Zha'Ha'Dum, preventing the Narn from communicating the scope of the threat. It appears to be inconsistent that ships can have weapons immediately after exiting hyperspace but not communications.

[Patrick Degan]

Yes, I remember that scene. G'kar explained that the blackout was due to the power-drain. The question is whether or not this is endemic to all ships in Babylon 5 or is a limitation on Narn technology, which I believe is slightly less advanced than that of the Earth Alliance.

[SpacedTeddyBear]

Maybe what G'kar was refering to was FTL communications. In The Long Twillight Struggle, G'sten was able to communicate with the fleet almost immediately after they jumped in-system. This is assuming that the time elapsed in our reference was the same in theirs.