God -- The Ultimate Creaton of Man

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-03-13 05:16pm

I fell myself slowly starting to give into the pressures of society. That is to say, I'm finding it remarkably easier to start being cynical and pessimistic about everything I see, regardless of its value or valor. I suppose society isn't as bad as I think it is. After all, the very thing that I criticize is the thing that sustains mankind, isn't it? As so many people have said, it is impossible to imagine man as a wild animal: Man depends fundamentally on other men. Man is a social creature, relying heavily on the talents and skills of other men. And here I am, criticizing the way in which he depends on others.

Essentially, I have uncovered the supreme irony of my situation. Here I am, constaltnly surrounded by two things, God and society, and I have the nerve to criticize the need for both. Of course, God and society have absolutely nothing to do with each other, but I find that my views on them are similar. I hate God much in the same way I hate society. It's not that I deny the existence of either, nor the power that either of them posess. I do not hate the fundamental structures of either: I think the idea of God and the idea of society are both good and necessary. What I hate is the reality of God and society. Let me break it down for you.

First, God. I've talked for ages about God, and anyone who has read my stuff knows my views on God. But I don't think I ever said that I think the concept of God is necessary. Let me clarify this omission: God is necessary. Or some form of God is necessary. There are leaders and there are followers. Some people need to be sheep. In the absence of leaders (a situation in which a lot of people find themselves), followers need something to look up to. That's where God comes in. People who are influential often have power. Power corrupts, taking the people who posses it deep into the belly of corruption. So when these sheep find themselves leaderless (or worse, following a corrupt leader) without a notion of God, what purpose does life have? Depression sets in like the first winter chill, and we have a society of people who are faithless (not in God, because there is no concept of God, but in authority). But because in reality there is the concept of God, these people who need something or someone to believe in find an unwaveringly good "entity" in which to confide. The concept of God provides hope, and this hope prevents depression.

This makes perfect sense. Think about it: What is the first of the twelve steps in AA? Learn to believe in a higher power. This prevents depression or a feeling that alcoholism is a perfectly acceptable way to avoid the suffering that is implied in living. They need someone to look up to, someone who they can rely on, someone who will always be there and will forgive them. These kinds of people simply don't exist in society. So they turn to God, a concept that is all-forgiving and all-loving. And alcoholics get better because they rely on God. People improve their financial situations in the same way, believing God will help them become stronger when in fact it is they who are overcoming suffering on their own with God as their (imaginary) support. If the concept of God did not exist, these people and countless others would be in deep peril and meet their ends prematurely due to depression.

And here I am, criticizing the necessity of God at all. It seems contradictory that I can, in the same breath, recognize the importance of God and deny his goodness. But there is a reason for this. I believe that God exists in man's mind. I believe that if someone believes in God and uses Him as a force to help overcome the daily peril of life, he must exist. I believe God exists because of necessity, because people NEED Him to exist. For those souls who seek things unattainable by willpower and time, God must exist. Otherwise society would kill itself. So man has made God (not the other way around), and God does not exist without man (though that DOES go both ways).

Take this in context of society as a whole. Man need society, as I stated before. There is no concept of a human being alone in the world: It just cannot happen, or at least it has yet to happen. Maybe after The Bomb drops, we'll find that man must necessarily exist alone in the wilderness, but at this point in evolution if man were to find himself alone in the woods to fend for himself, we would surely see the end of mankind. But I digress. Man must exist in a society. Certain people also need supremely good guidence. Because there is no such thing as supreme good on Earth, man found it necessary to fill in the gaps where society is not compassionate, all-forgiving, or unconditionally loving. So they create God, who is compassionate beyond human comprehension, all-forgiving, and who loves indiscriminately. And because this security blanket is necessary, and because society is unavoidable, man has theoretically created a theology and a society that fill in each other's gaps in logic: God provides the humanity that society often lacks, and society provides the material things that no God can provide.

The more I think about it, the more I think God and society were created in the same breath, in the same stroke of pen to paper. I guess I was wrong before about God and society having nothing to do with each other. Hm. Go figure.

Again, I could be wrong about this. Leave one.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-13 05:22pm

Can we ban the troll yet?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-13 05:25pm

Can we put a notice up that kissing ass doesn't get win you favor?

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-03-13 05:35pm

Durandal wrote:Can we put a notice up that kissing ass doesn't get win you favor?

I second that. Too many people have come here and tried to gain instant acceptance by sucking up to everyone else, like Mike_6002. Future members should know that.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-13 05:38pm

Maybe I just haven't been paying attention to this guy, but I don't see why that post indicates another Mike_6002. What's this guy done to warrant suspicion?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-13 05:43pm

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:
Durandal wrote:Can we put a notice up that kissing ass doesn't get win you favor?
I second that. Too many people have come here and tried to gain instant acceptance by sucking up to everyone else, like Mike_6002. Future members should know that.

And they suck up by pulling stupid shit, like blatantly flaming Christians, starting stupid threads designed to strut their ego (like this one) or sending death threats to people we no longer give a shit about.

I'm sick of all these "me too" newbies. You gain respect here by effectively arguing and supporting your position and by contributing something substantial, not by just agreeing with everything we say. I mean, Jesus, it's like they expect us to say, "Right on man!" if they post a thread about how much DarkStar sucks. This board is full of free thinkers, and the last thing free thinkers want is mindless sheep following them around.

Sektor31 · Post by **Sektor31** » 2003-03-13 05:45pm

The part about "God" being needed for the "sheep" of the world is flawed. If you really need to look up to someone/thing, why not make it a real person instead of an imaginary one? One doesn't need to believe in an imaginary person to gain a goal.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-03-13 05:56pm

Darth Wong wrote:Maybe I just haven't been paying attention to this guy, but I don't see why that post indicates another Mike_6002. What's this guy done to warrant suspicion?

I'll second that. I saw nothing in his post that was inflamatory or overtly stupid. He's just speaking his mind.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-03-13 05:56pm

The text reminds me of those internet programs which, given keywords, come up with endless lines of pseudo-intelectual crap.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-03-13 06:02pm

Don't ban him, I don't see any trolling here, just some insight.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-03-13 06:18pm

Vorlon1701 wrote:Don't ban him, I don't see any trolling here, just some insight.

True. One should not be banned just for speaking his mind.

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-03-13 07:31pm

Excuse me, but last time I checked, expressing an opinion wasn't trolling. And where did the accusation of kissing ass come from? The people claiming that I am ignorant are making some of the most ignorant claims I've ever heard. Like this one:

And they suck up by pulling stupid shit, like blatantly flaming Christians, starting stupid threads designed to strut their ego (like this one) or sending death threats to people we no longer give a shit about.

I'm sick of all these "me too" newbies. You gain respect here by effectively arguing and supporting your position and by contributing something substantial, not by just agreeing with everything we say. I mean, Jesus, it's like they expect us to say, "Right on man!" if they post a thread about how much DarkStar sucks. This board is full of free thinkers, and the last thing free thinkers want is mindless sheep following them around.

First off, quote for me a death threat that I made. Or where I "blatantly flamed Christians." Or where I pulled any kind of stupid shit whatsoever.

Second, who's saying "me too?" Did I not effectively argue my position here? If not, instead of supporting the false claim that I'm nothing more than a trolling newbie (which essentially is like saying "me too!" to the claims that OTHER people made, hypocrit,) quote one of my points and counterpoint it. Other people are capable of doing so, so take a note or two.

Sometimes I think it's not just the newbies that make stupid comments...

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-03-13 07:37pm

Sektor31 wrote:The part about "God" being needed for the "sheep" of the world is flawed. If you really need to look up to someone/thing, why not make it a real person instead of an imaginary one? One doesn't need to believe in an imaginary person to gain a goal.

I considered this point before I wrote that original post, and I thought I had addressed it clearly, but I guess I didn't (story of my life).

The point I was trying to make was that those whom people admire are often people of considerable power. Such is not always the case, obviously, and it could be argued that it is even only SOMETIMES the case. I won't argue against that, but what I will say is this: In today's society where almost everyone with power has some kind of terminal flaw, it follows rightly that there SHOULD be some kind of imaginary ideal person that people can look up to. That way people have an option. They can look up to real-life people who remain true to their virtue (who, I think, are few and far between,) OR they can look towards a standard of virtue, namely, God.

I think that covers that base... if not, just tell me.

Enricko · Post by **Enricko** » 2003-03-13 07:48pm

Queeb Salaron, I think that what the elders of this board are trying to spell-out for you, it's they are tired of this sort of self-gloating thread...

And here I amAnd here I amAnd here I amAnd here I amAnd here I
amAnd here I amAnd here I amAnd here I amAnd here I amAnd here I am

ad nauseam

And I might add, you are talking about God as nurses in mental ward talk about what they call "the Magic Thought" ("La Pensée Magique").
Someone has a problem in his life (like a depression), and they foresee that all will be made right/better/okay with one event...

In your case, God is the magic thought.

People who don't want to face reality.

Normally, its not a good thing.

People have to be mature about life.

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-03-13 09:12pm

I haven't seen Queeb's previous posts but from what I see of this one and you people criticizing him for this one post, I think that you people are jumping the gun by quite a bit.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-03-13 09:17pm

Queeb Salaron wrote:Excuse me, but last time I checked, expressing an opinion wasn't trolling. And where did the accusation of kissing ass come from? The people claiming that I am ignorant are making some of the most ignorant claims I've ever heard. Like this one:
And they suck up by pulling stupid shit, like blatantly flaming Christians, starting stupid threads designed to strut their ego (like this one) or sending death threats to people we no longer give a shit about.

I'm sick of all these "me too" newbies. You gain respect here by effectively arguing and supporting your position and by contributing something substantial, not by just agreeing with everything we say. I mean, Jesus, it's like they expect us to say, "Right on man!" if they post a thread about how much DarkStar sucks. This board is full of free thinkers, and the last thing free thinkers want is mindless sheep following them around.
First off, quote for me a death threat that I made. Or where I "blatantly flamed Christians." Or where I pulled any kind of stupid shit whatsoever.

Second, who's saying "me too?" Did I not effectively argue my position here? If not, instead of supporting the false claim that I'm nothing more than a trolling newbie (which essentially is like saying "me too!" to the claims that OTHER people made, hypocrit,) quote one of my points and counterpoint it. Other people are capable of doing so, so take a note or two.

Sometimes I think it's not just the newbies that make stupid comments...

We weren't referring to you when we were talking about death threats, and I believe the same is with "blatantly flaming Chrsitians". We were referring to other members that have been here in the past.

Also, I do agree I was being a bit "me too"-ish in my previous post. I just saw Durandal's post, and saw it as an oppurtunity to make a little rant.

However, a long rant really isn't the best way to start on this forum.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-13 11:39pm

Yeah, I kinda flew off the handle there. Sorry about that, but the influx of "me too" n00bs kind of annoys me.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-03-14 08:38am

Durandal wrote:Yeah, I kinda flew off the handle there. Sorry about that, but the influx of "me too" n00bs kind of annoys me.

Me-too people might be annoying, but at least they're on OUR side. And me, I'd rather know that the idiots that surround me are gonna vote my way when push comes to shove.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-03-14 08:53am

Lagmonster wrote:
Durandal wrote:Yeah, I kinda flew off the handle there. Sorry about that, but the influx of "me too" n00bs kind of annoys me.
Me-too people might be annoying, but at least they're on OUR side. And me, I'd rather know that the idiots that surround me are gonna vote my way when push comes to shove.

Yeah, but we wanna get them to think on their own. Me-too's are, unfortunately, just like Fundamentalists in that way.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-03-14 11:41am

Lagmonster wrote:
Durandal wrote:Yeah, I kinda flew off the handle there. Sorry about that, but the influx of "me too" n00bs kind of annoys me.
Me-too people might be annoying, but at least they're on OUR side. And me, I'd rather know that the idiots that surround me are gonna vote my way when push comes to shove.

Ah, the security of mutual agreement.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-03-14 02:37pm

Vorlon1701 wrote:Yeah, but we wanna get them to think on their own. Me-too's are, unfortunately, just like Fundamentalists in that way.

I don't disagree that it's preferable for people to think for themselves, but you'll never educate EVERYBODY. And those of humanity who are the sheep are better off in my pasture, if you take my meaning.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-14 04:49pm

Lagmonster wrote:
Vorlon1701 wrote:Yeah, but we wanna get them to think on their own. Me-too's are, unfortunately, just like Fundamentalists in that way.
I don't disagree that it's preferable for people to think for themselves, but you'll never educate EVERYBODY. And those of humanity who are the sheep are better off in my pasture, if you take my meaning.

I guess that's true. I'd rather have people mindlessly following secularism rather than fundamentalist Christianity, or any religion for that matter.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-03-15 12:26am

Durandal wrote:
Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:
Durandal wrote:Can we put a notice up that kissing ass doesn't get win you favor?
I second that. Too many people have come here and tried to gain instant acceptance by sucking up to everyone else, like Mike_6002. Future members should know that.
And they suck up by pulling stupid shit, like blatantly flaming Christians, starting stupid threads designed to strut their ego (like this one) or sending death threats to people we no longer give a shit about.

I'm sick of all these "me too" newbies. You gain respect here by effectively arguing and supporting your position and by contributing something substantial, not by just agreeing with everything we say. I mean, Jesus, it's like they expect us to say, "Right on man!" if they post a thread about how much DarkStar sucks. This board is full of free thinkers, and the last thing free thinkers want is mindless sheep following them around.

The irony of a "newbie" me tooing this statement would have been as rich as a creamy chocolate suflae.......... too bad it didnt happen.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-15 12:48am

By the way, you might want to fix up your John Adams quote. It's often taken out of context and misquoted. Here is the full quote.

John Adams wrote:Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-03-15 12:53am

Vorlon1701 wrote:Yeah, but we wanna get them to think on their own. Me-too's are, unfortunately, just like Fundamentalists in that way.

I am personally of the opinion that there hasn't been an original thought in years. Think about it: Archemedes (I think,) proposed the idea that essentially every story that could ever be written fell into one of about 25 categories (I'm pulling this from the cobweb-dusted reaches of memory from Freshman year Theater class... both "Archemedes" and "25" could be innacurate... But some old dude said there were only so many stories that could be written.) All modern technology is simply older technology that's reconfigured in a way that makes it faster, lighter, smaller, easier, etc. Since the discovery of harnessing electric power into a circut, there hasn't really been anything new invented. Nearly everything technological is a variation on some very basic principle of physics.

What's the point? Well, if there are only so many ideas out there, there HAS to be some overlap between what other people are thinking and what I (for example) am thinking. I'm not saying that people should give up trying to come up with an original thought, of course... But I am saying that maybe "me-tooing" is simply an expression of a lack of possible variation on a topic.

::Laughs:: The funny thing is, I'm only rephrasing what that same long-dead philospher (Archemedes?) said thousands of years ago. Irony, sweet irony.