Babylon 5 - 20 Years Later

[Imperial Overlord]

As I recall, it was one of the first shows to attempt to be a novel for television, no reset button, each episode has consequences.

American live action television. Medium to long format narrative had been the norm in, for instance, TV anime since forever (at least 1974 or so, with Space Battleship Yamato, possibly the original drive around in space because the farm burned down show).

It had been done before in American live action television, although not often. Hill Street Blues in the 80s is the best example that comes to mind.

[jollyreaper]

As I recall, it was one of the first shows to attempt to be a novel for television, no reset button, each episode has consequences.

American live action television. Medium to long format narrative had been the norm in, for instance, TV anime since forever (at least 1974 or so, with Space Battleship Yamato, possibly the original drive around in space because the farm burned down show).

It's been done in American soaps before that and there was the chance to see it in robotech before then. Star Blazers never aired in my market. Never saw any telenovelas but I've heard they're better done than the American kind.

So I'll amend my statement to say it was brandnnrw in the American market which, in that era, meant the only thing most of us had an opportunity to experience. Trading shows on tape was time-consuming and expensive.

I do remember naysayers critiquing B5 when it started that it was going to be like a soap opera and nobody would put up with that association. Or nobody would pick it up seasons in because they had too much backstory to watch that wasn't available. And the episode cout did go much higher than most anime. While I'm sure the production staff had an eye towards DVD sales just like they did with filming in widescreen, the average fan likely didn't appreciate what full season boxed sets could mean. I know for myself, the tapes in the comic store were very expensive. They had a lot of Trek but who could afford it? Just catch the rerun when it airs.

[Vendetta]

Yeah, although Star Trek/Outer Limits had been the dominant paradigm in TV SF, where each episode was its own self contained story and had little to no ongoing series narrative, so when a new SF show came out there was more inbuilt expectation in both audiences and networks that it would work like those shows. B5 was part of a wider trend of story arc based TV that included stuff like X Files and Homicide Life on the Street though, and it was more arc focused than the X Files and also based on a whole series arc rather than shorter season arcs.

Still not unique globally, but slightly different in US TV terms.


When people say that TV SF is "like a soap opera" they actually mean that the conflicts are character driven and the characters undergo evolution because of them.

[Stark]

And that's why scifi didn't do it; because people expected weekly WOW CRAZY SHIT episodes, and not developing stories and characters over time. It's a funny way to make a show, but that's America for you. Even now, many syndicated shows have secondary series arc content but main plots are self contained. Turns out people want their characters to actually change and grow.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

While I'm sure the production staff had an eye towards DVD sales just like they did with filming in widescreen, the average fan likely didn't appreciate what full season boxed sets could mean. I know for myself, the tapes in the comic store were very expensive. They had a lot of Trek but who could afford it? Just catch the rerun when it airs.

How could they have an eye towards DVD sales? DVDs might have existed in some fashion when the show started, but DVD boxed sets still weren't even considered a viable option for any show by the time B5 went off the air, so far as I can remember.

[Netko]

As far as CGI goes, it actually holds up quite well I think. I've rewatched it recently and had no trouble enjoying it (the fact that I like space opera sci-fi and that there is a maddening lack of it on TV since nBSG finished probably aided that).

Especially when you consider that it was the forerunner of using CGI to show actual scenes rather then stock footage. DS9, as a contemporary show with a immeasurably higher budget, has CGI that is slightly better but in turn shows us at best glimpses of the action; the battle scenes are confused and a lot of the footage is reused (they even reused CGI from a recent battle for the finale!). B5 on the other hand used CGI for great effect with no reuse (outside of the location-establishing shots). When used in battle, you got a sense of position of all the participants and of the major flow. All in all, I actually much prefer it - while visually less attractive, it feels like a late nineties show in how it incorporates CGI into the action (Farscape, Enterprise etc.), rather then feeling like a show barely beginning the transition into that style from the 80ies to early nineties "establishing shot for the dialogue" style which was used to good effect in TNG but was wholly inappropriate for DS9 but lingered as a style there to some extent until the end.

[mr friendly guy]

If they want to do more B5, why don't they just set it further into the future rather than a reboot. Star Trek TOS was set in the 23rd century, while TNG was the 24th century. B5 was set in the 23rd century, why can't a new B5 do the same? New characters, new tech to keep the fan boys entertained, new story lines. Obviously it won't be called B5 the next generation or some such rubbish. Just don't do legend of the rangers or lost tales. The first one was a joke, the second was ok, although it gave us the nice idea of quantum space instead of hyperspace.

[jollyreaper]

While I'm sure the production staff had an eye towards DVD sales just like they did with filming in widescreen, the average fan likely didn't appreciate what full season boxed sets could mean. I know for myself, the tapes in the comic store were very expensive. They had a lot of Trek but who could afford it? Just catch the rerun when it airs.

How could they have an eye towards DVD sales? DVDs might have existed in some fashion when the show started, but DVD boxed sets still weren't even considered a viable option for any show by the time B5 went off the air, so far as I can remember.

Right, but the potential remained there. Tapes were damned expensive to duplicate, same as floppies. CD's are dirt cheap and were in the middle of revolutionizing computer media distribution at the time. I doubt that the implications were missed by the producers. This is something that could actually be cleared up since JMS is still active online, we could ask.

"Babylon 5 is filmed in widescreen (16:9) format, so that when HDTV arrives, the show can be remastered for full-screen video release. The extra picture space is just a bonus; directors compose scenes to fit entirely in the normal 4:3 aspect ratio of today's television, at the same time making sure that the edges of the picture can be included later on." --from a B5 FAQ

Given that production started around 1992, that was very forward-thinking. I can't find any lists right now of which shows did it first but B5 seems like the earliest.

There's probably room for a whole new thread talking about when people in the know appreciated the potential for DVD sale of television shows vs. when the suits twigged to it. I know the success of Family Guy on DVD caught the suits by surprise and led to them bringing the show back.

[Connor MacLeod]

I like to give B5 credit for its ambition (any effort at somethind different from what already exists should be lauded even if it is unlikely to succeed), and it deserves credit for pulling off what it did, but I do think it had some significant failings because it aimed as high as the OP hints. It's less the failings of anyone involved in B5 though, than the way American TV works (syndication and all that) I suspect. It kind of resulted in a mixed bag. We got SOME sort of grand arcs - seasons 2 and 3 and the start of four kind of showed that, but on the other hand the nature of American TV hamstrung it pretty severely - things like Michael O'Hare leaving after season 1 kind of undermined the series and left it scrambling to patch all those holes, and we saw that with the abrupt restructing of season 4 (because IIRC there was a chance there would be no season 5.). And when we had season 5, we had yet more crew restructinng, and we had a bunch of plots tacked on that worked in one case (Londo's was good) and less so in others (never cared for Byron.) Season one and five still remain the weakest because they feel so disconnected from the seasons between them: to me both feel like they're more 'lead ups' trying to lay the groundwork for what is to come, but nothing really comes of that, and it seems like you had a season's worth of potential kind of wasted because of it.

While B5 did a decent job of trying to bring 'big arc's to the screen, I do think it did not succeed as well as (for example) DS9 in the 'good television' department, partly because of the gamble it took. B5 really ends up to me as being a sort of mixed bag of successses and failures because of the 'big arcs on TV' approach it wanted to take. Part of me wonders if it might have done better as a bunch of 'mini-series' type formats rather than trying to go for a seasonal/episodic format. Something like the way Japanese animated sci fi (like Gundam) sometimes runs would work well, I think, with B5, and far less room for disruption. But I don't think American TV culture works that way, unfortunately.


Edit: Maybe a simpler way to present it is 'B5 is an effort to do something novel amidst the American TV culture approach' and that the differences in mindset/culture when it comes to the way TV entertainment should be done (as contrated by, again, the way Japan does it with the animated sci fi like Gundam) reflect the problems B5 had in doing so.

[khursed]

I loved B5, I recently watched the last made for tv movie they made.

The main problem I've had with the show, is that it tried to do too much, yes JMS wanted to avoid the kid's stuff, such as cute robots, and unecessary kids, however, he should have cut on the flat humor that really fell short.

The whole show works better if you remove the crappy humor, it is a pretty good drama.

I agree season 1 and 5 feel somewhat unrelated to the rest of the show, as if they just couldn't fit right.

I actually was happy to see Micheal O'Hare leave, I much more liked Sheridan.

[Batman]

The way I see it, the main problem with season 1 was it was season 1, and they were still figuring things out, on top if being intentionally a lead-up to the main story arc. And it still managed to have a great episode or three. As for the change from Sinclair to Sheridan, I think the whole Valen angle worked rather well, and I can't see the B5 I know working without that changeover. Plus Sheridan's left-handed. There's way too many southpaws in SciFi.
As for season 5, as already mentioned, it suffered from pretty much everything meant to go into it already having been done in season 4 on account of them not expecting to get a fifth season, and when they did, leading up to events that never were followed through in the series (namely, the Telepath War). Well and the presence of Byron, who, while he was eventually killed, was killed whatever number of episodes he figured into plus one too late.

[Enigma]

Loved B5, then and now. I wouldn't mind a reboot of the series but not necessarily sticking to the same stories.

A literal reboot is a terrible idea: just have to emphasize that. You are suggesting figurative reboot? Same universe and themes with different characters or new universe and characters? Firefly could be described as "what if there were a Star Wars prequel with Han and Chewie on the Falcon?" But by the time the Firefly verse is laid out, such a comparison is laughably limited.

I think the B5 universe is done and should be left to a well-earned rest. But I could totally go for another show with a big universe to explore, intelligent space opera done right.

Same characters with the main story lines being more or less the same but not word for word (Except maybe for some key phrases like Delenn's threat " Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else." or Ivanova's "'Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova. I will not ignore Ivanova's recommendations. Ivanova is God. And if this ever happens again, Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out.'").

Minor story lines like the Jack the Ripper, Kosh's use of a Vicker, etc... can be replaced with completely new stories.

Ships and fighters would be either updated or completely revamped. B5 itself doesn't necessarily need to be completely redone, just updated but keeping the same color scheme.

[Enigma]

If they want to do more B5, why don't they just set it further into the future rather than a reboot. Star Trek TOS was set in the 23rd century, while TNG was the 24th century. B5 was set in the 23rd century, why can't a new B5 do the same? New characters, new tech to keep the fan boys entertained, new story lines. Obviously it won't be called B5 the next generation or some such rubbish. Just don't do legend of the rangers or lost tales. The first one was a joke, the second was ok, although it gave us the nice idea of quantum space instead of hyperspace.

Can't be called B5, period. Sheridan blew it up in the finale when the station had run its course.

As for spin offs, you forgot one, Crusade.

I checked wiki and I am surprised that Warner is refusing to do anything with the franchise. The only thing that JMS has rights to are the movie rights.

[Batman]

One of the downsides of a series that actually has continuity I guess-once something happened, it stays having happened
And was the phrase 'B5 was the last of the Babylon stations' ever uttered by anybody outside the series main timeframe? Do we truly know there were no more Babylon stations?
Given that there were a good bit of future episodes that somehow failed to mention it I suspect it's true but I don't recall it ever being explicitly mentioned. I suspect I'm wrong, but I wouldn't particularly mind if I'm not.

[CaptJodan]

One of the downsides of a series that actually has continuity I guess-once something happened, it stays having happened
And was the phrase 'B5 was the last of the Babylon stations' ever uttered by anybody outside the series main timeframe? Do we truly know there were no more Babylon stations?
Given that there were a good bit of future episodes that somehow failed to mention it I suspect it's true but I don't recall it ever being explicitly mentioned. I suspect I'm wrong, but I wouldn't particularly mind if I'm not.

It was one of the last lines uttered by Ivanova in "Sleeping in Light" right after the station was destroyed. That's a good 20ish years later. Beyond that, we have "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" which doesn't mention that there wasn't another Babylon station, but obviously doesn't indicate one either.

I think, given how canon played out, that you'd be hard pressed to find a reason for such a station to exist. The Rangers have largely taken up the mantle of being the ones responsible for keeping the peace and diplomatic efforts even as far as a million years into the future. Minbar seems to be the hub of cultural interaction by the time of Legend of the Rangers. Other stations likely exist, but the mission of the Babylon Project really feels like it was complete after 5. And with Earth gaining artificial gravity tech, you likely wouldn't even see a station designed similarly to other Babylon stations post 5, so it probably wouldn't even "feel" like a Babylon station. Without the same mission and without the same look, why bother? You might as well call it "Outpost 42" and go from there.

[Rekkon]

Season 5 takes place in 2262. They do not destroy the station until 2281, so there could be a point where B5 is still relevant enough to be the focus of a new series without needing most (or any) of the original characters. Not saying that would be the best approach, but it would be possible.

[Argosh]

They could show/tell about the first 4 stations. Some were blown up, one was time-traveled away etc.

[Bedlam]

They could show/tell about the first 4 stations. Some were blown up, one was time-traveled away etc.

The first three were destroyed during construction and the fourth was nicked before the paint was dry, there's not much time frame to work with there.

[Thanas]

I wish they would do something about the Daka war.

[Darksider]

The what war?

Was the B5 verse invaded by orks at some point?

[Batman]

I, too, have to admit I don't know that one, perhaps it's something from the novels?

[Darksider]

I think he means the Drakh, but there wasn't really a war with them as far as I can remember, they just attacked earth and scampered off when the combined EA/ISA fleet kicked their asses, staying just long enough to drop the virus before turning tail

[Stark]

He p clearly means the guys the humans beat up before the series to establish their tough boy cred.

[Darksider]

The Dilgar? Might be interesting to see that fight.

[B5B7]

There is a very good fanfic about the Dilgar war called 'The Dilgar War' by Lord of Misrule on ffnet.
Link - The Dilgar War