The Pope resigns

[Dr. Trainwreck]

Uhhh... I guess foreign governments saw this post-Mussolini Vatican as a direct continuance of the old papacy, and therefore assumed the old treaties still existed. If they view old and new Vatican as the same state, it makes sense.

[Thanas]

Yeah and there are also a ton of local agreements made with the local dioceses which were grandfathered in or folded into new agreements with the vatican.

[Dalton]

The Holy See and Vatican City are two separate entities. The See is the ecclesiastical authority which in turn administrates the city-state, with the Pope acting as leader of both and a Cardinal (Bertello) essentially running the day to day. Perhaps these treaties were signed under the umbrella of the See.

[Dalton]

If the next Pope has any sense of irony he'll name himself Innocent XIV.

[Thanas]

The Holy See and Vatican City are two separate entities. The See is the ecclesiastical authority which in turn administrates the city-state, with the Pope acting as leader of both and a Cardinal (Bertello) essentially running the day to day. Perhaps these treaties were signed under the umbrella of the See.

Well that depends. A lot of them date back to the times where each diocese was its own sovereign state. Some of them were later on rolled into huge treaties with the sea, others were not....the whole thing is a huge mess and I don't think anybody really has a complete view of things there.

[Dalton]

Sede Vacante as of 8pm Roman time.

[SirNitram]

Apparently, Ratzinger has decided he will remain Benedict, still get to be addressed as His Holiness, still live in the Vatican, still have his butler, still wear the traditional white, and invented the new title and position of 'Emeritus Pope'. His butler will serve him and the next pope, and he'll get a nice place next to the radio tranmission tower.

I can't help but feel this screams conflict for the new Pontiff.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'm expecting the new Pontiff to have Benedict expelled from the Vatican City in short order.

[Dalton]

Apparently, Ratzinger has decided he will remain Benedict, still get to be addressed as His Holiness, still live in the Vatican, still have his butler, still wear the traditional white, and invented the new title and position of 'Emeritus Pope'. His butler will serve him and the next pope, and he'll get a nice place next to the radio tranmission tower.

I can't help but feel this screams conflict for the new Pontiff.

From what I understand, keeping the papal name is not without precedent; Gregory XII kept his name after his resignation. Additionally, I don't think it was Benedict that appointed himself Pope Emeritus, but some council of Cardinals or something (can't find a source on that). He no longer gets the boss red leather shoes or the gold ring, but he does get a retirement home in the Vatican that will be a converted monastery. Of course, he also gets all those sweet benefits including a generous monthly stipend. If the next Pope so chooses he may reappoint him a Cardinal Emeritus (also not unprecedented) and effectively double his salary. I sincerely doubt the next Pope will eject Benedict XVI seeing that he appointed many of the voting-eligible Cardinals currently in the Conclave.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well, perhaps the Vatican really has moderated a lot from the old days, but I can see the need for centralized headship of the Church demanding action pretty clearly on the matter.

[bilateralrope]

His butler will serve him and the next pope

Sharing a butler sounds like it will cause problems. Especially when the new pope travels.

What stops the new pope from hiring a new butler ?

[Dalton]

Well, perhaps the Vatican really has moderated a lot from the old days, but I can see the need for centralized headship of the Church demanding action pretty clearly on the matter.

I don't think that will be much of a problem. Benedict XVI has unequivocally stated that he will stay out of the way of the next Pope. It's probably better to keep him within arm's reach anyway for his protection.

[Dalton]

And I don't see him going full Antipope.

[Irbis]

The Holy See and Vatican City are two separate entities. The See is the ecclesiastical authority which in turn administrates the city-state, with the Pope acting as leader of both and a Cardinal (Bertello) essentially running the day to day. Perhaps these treaties were signed under the umbrella of the See.

Though, it would be kind of hard for Holy See to sign any extradition banning treaties seeing it has no territory, physical location or population.

Apparently, Ratzinger has decided he will remain Benedict, still get to be addressed as His Holiness, still live in the Vatican, still have his butler, still wear the traditional white, and invented the new title and position of 'Emeritus Pope'. His butler will serve him and the next pope, and he'll get a nice place next to the radio tranmission tower.

I can't help but feel this screams conflict for the new Pontiff.

He doesn't get to keep his papal tiara, pastoral, ring/seal, any red accents on his clothes (as these symbolize regal power), papal scarf or overcoat. He is literally white-wearing bishop emeritus now, without even a church or post, and has about as much power over Church as you or me.

Plus, why the fuck Benedict abdicated, no matter if for health or because he wanted to spend rest of his years on theological papers, if he wanted to keep control? He has no guarantee next Pope will listen to him, in fact, he is too old to even vote for next one. No, he will just get some servant (he moved to nun Cloister, they can tend for him) then will likely die soon anyway removing any obstacle he might had been.

So, anyway, Church is now officially leaderless, in secular terms, both "prime minister" and the rest of "ministers" lost positions now, with only two Cardinals to oversee (but not rule) Church and Vatican until next Pope puts a seal under the list of his appointments. Which might not be soon, given new (old) electoral rules.

[FSTargetDrone]

Plus, why the fuck Benedict abdicated, no matter if for health or because he wanted to spend rest of his years on theological papers, if he wanted to keep control? He has no guarantee next Pope will listen to him, in fact, he is too old to even vote for next one. No, he will just get some servant (he moved to nun Cloister, they can tend for him) then will likely die soon anyway removing any obstacle he might had been.

It is interesting. Why not stay instead of now being known as the only pope to resign in the last 600 years? There has to be no small amount of awkwardness and ignominy stemming from that, at the very least. Health concerns didn't stop the last pope and he was a mess at the end.

I thought the last of the nuns had moved out so his soon-to-be residence could start to be modified for his use?

[Imperial Overlord]

I'm not a fan of Benedict, but the man got a very good view of John Paul II's last years of life and they weren't pretty. It's very reasonable to retire before he becomes a doddering wreck and let the job of leading the church go to someone who is physically and mentally capable of doing so. I mean who the fuck wants to have two or three years of a zombie pope?

[fgalkin]

If a zombie pope is unable to push his noxious agenda on the world.....everybody?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Irbis]

It is interesting. Why not stay instead of now being known as the only pope to resign in the last 600 years? There has to be no small amount of awkwardness and ignominy stemming from that, at the very least. Health concerns didn't stop the last pope and he was a mess at the end.

He got a very good view of that mess from front seat and might have decided abdication is lesser evil. Or he decided to go one step further than his predecessor, who was first Pope to limit how old Bishops can be in office, and give precedence for case Popes should be limited, too? Or he is really too old, according to various sources, he has hearing, heart, sight and knee problems. Or, that sealed envelope with reports on Vatican problems he left to next Pope contains too big bomb for someone so old to handle well... We won't know unless he will ever speak about his reasons, which is unlikely.

I thought the last of the nuns had moved out so his soon-to-be residence could start to be modified for his use?

From what I read, they left because the building is being renovated (since 2012, so no relation) and he doesn't want all of it for himself - I could be wrong, though.

[CarsonPalmer]

I tend to agree with Irbis-perhaps setting he precedent of "popes can resign" was his goal. After JP2 turned the papacy into a more visible institution, that sort of age became a real handicap.

Back in the prisoner of the Vatican days when an old pope just needed to say Mass every now and then it wasn't as much of a problem.

[Imperial Overlord]

If a zombie pope is unable to push his noxious agenda on the world.....everybody?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

They seem to do that anyway by staying stuck like a broken record. If they resign and we can cycle through them faster, we might be able to eventually get one that's only backwards instead of appalling.

[Kuja]

Health concerns didn't stop the last pope and he was a mess at the end.

I'm not a fan of Benedict, but the man got a very good view of John Paul II's last years of life and they weren't pretty. It's very reasonable to retire before he becomes a doddering wreck and let the job of leading the church go to someone who is physically and mentally capable of doing so. I mean who the fuck wants to have two or three years of a zombie pope?

This was something I was mulling over as well. As little as a hundred years ago...even as little as fifty years ago, a pope could be in failing health and it could still be a relatively 'private' thing by the standards of world news, or at least not a horrendously visible thing.

But nowadays with the speed and ubiquity of modern communications we can practically watch a major figure like the Pope deteriorate in real-time. I couldn't really blame Benny too much if decided he wanted to resign with the worry that increasing health issues would make him look farcical or weak when appearing on a worldwide news broadcast and deciding it might be best if he spared the church that kind of press.

[Irbis]

But nowadays with the speed and ubiquity of modern communications we can practically watch a major figure like the Pope deteriorate in real-time. I couldn't really blame Benny too much if decided he wanted to resign with the worry that increasing health issues would make him look farcical or weak when appearing on a worldwide news broadcast and deciding it might be best if he spared the church that kind of press.

Yeah, Benedict not only saw the spectacle, but he might well know the problems with bishops and cardinals he has today are result of dementia and power vacuum during last years of his predecessor, which is last thing Church needs right now in larger dose. Our press speculates it's mostly the heath, though, as Benedict planned trilogy of Encyclicals but managed to finish only two.

Also, Benedict antipope? Seriously? We got these only because grand powers of the day were willing to invest political capital into one to get their own Church figurehead, plus, in these days some cardinals were men of the kings, so you could get some of them to stand behind your antipope. What state exactly would support antipope today and what cardinal would stand behind him when new pope can simply demote and excommunicate everyone involved on a whim?

I personally hope for "Urban IX", would infuriate Polish right wing

[Lord Revan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Benedictus the de facto leader of the church during the later part of predesessors reign (when JP2 was too ill to do it himself)?

[Simon_Jester]

It wouldn't be a surprise.

And... I think there's something to Kuja's post, the idea that 50-100 years ago a senile pope with a bad heart could have held on quietly while today that can't happen. It isn't just popes, either: a lot of historical figures had periods of declining health before leaving office, which would now be impossible to hide.

Woodrow Wilson remained in office after being totally incapacitated by a stroke; his wife wound up effectively running the country because she was one of the few people who could get in to see him, then come out saying "he wants this." Fifty years later that would have been impossible to get away with.

Nowadays, it seems like only strongmen in less media-saturated countries (like Kim Jong Il or Hugo Chavez*) seem to be able to hang onto office when their health starts to go.

*Not to say they're alike in other respects, only in this.

[folti78]

Also, Benedict antipope? Seriously? We got these only because grand powers of the day were willing to invest political capital into one to get their own Church figurehead, plus, in these days some cardinals were men of the kings, so you could get some of them to stand behind your antipope. What state exactly would support antipope today and what cardinal would stand behind him when new pope can simply demote and excommunicate everyone involved on a whim?

This, without a significant schism in the Catholic Church reaching up to the highest levels, you only get some splinter groups who may elect their own popes but they are usually marginal groups.