Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

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Guardsman Bass
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Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

Post by Guardsman Bass »

I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet. Multi-millionaire space enthusiast Dennis Tito is pushing for a 2018 Mars flyby mission:
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Last week, space-faring millionaire Dennis Tito introduced the world to his latest venture, the Inspiration Mars Foundation. Tito became the world’s first space tourist in 2001, when he spent 8 days on the International Space Station. Now he wants to send a married couple on a mission to Mars in 2018. But his plan is vague, and frankly, a lot of magic would have to happen to get two humans to Mars in just five years.

Tito unveiled the details for the mission at a recent press conference, and it's actually pretty simplistic. Taking advantage of a favourable launch window in January 2018 – it will be the shortest transit time to Mars until the planets realign in 2031 – the mission will send a heterosexual married couple to Mars, have them whip around the planet’s far side, and slingshot their way back to Earth. Once they launch, there’s no chance for an abort. The crew would take everything they need with them: food, water, oxygen, equipment, medical supplies, and waste storage (both human and material). They wouldn’t be opening the hatch for any space walks and they wouldn’t land. Basically, the mission would see them sitting quietly in orbit for 501 days, the boredom punctuated at the halfway mark with a view of Mars from 100 miles up through their porthole windows.

It isn’t actually that difficult a mission. It’s easy enough to launch something into Earth's orbit. And once you ignite your engine to gain the necessary speed and momentum to get on the path to Mars you leave Sir Isaac Newton in the driver’s seat. That’s the beauty of a free-return trajectory: you don’t need to make any adjustments, so you don’t use any fuel, lightening the load you have to take with you. Tito emphasized the mission’s simplicity in the press conference, stating multiple times that it’s a feasible flight plan with existing technology.

But he never said what exactly that existing technology is. Even a barebones spacecraft going to Mars is going to be pretty heavy. There are heavy lift launch vehicles flying right now, like the Delta Heavy, but they aren’t man-rated. SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy is slated to carry men, but it hasn’t been built yet. No one said what the spacecraft will be either, just that it will probably look like an Apollo Command Module with an additional external inflatable habitat module. Whatever it is, it will also have to go through testing, and that takes time. There also weren’t any good answers to questions about test milestones and the obvious problem that the launch date is less than five years away and nothing has been built.

Questions about the hardware weren’t the only details Tito glossed over. Radiation is a huge issue in space, especially on a 501 day-long mission. We have some ways of protecting astronauts on deep space missions, but events like coronal mass ejections where the Sun spews out huge bursts of radiation are a threat on a whole different level. NASA took the risk on Apollo missions, but those missions lasted 14 days. This is 501 days. If we want to bring the crew home in the same condition in which they left we’re going to need some advances in radiation shielding and fast. Right now, Inspiration Mars’ response to the “what if they come home with cancer from radiation exposure” question is that we can deal with those consequences here on Earth. Not the most heartening answer.

Funding was another big piece of the mission that was only half discussed. Tito himself is using his significant cash reserves to fund the mission through 2014, but big undertakings don’t need the bulk of the money in the first two years. When all those last minute problems pop up and threaten the flight’s success a year from launch, that’s when you need money. And that’s the money Inspiration Mars doesn’t have yet. The figure $10 million was thrown around a few times; that’s a lot of crowd-sourcing and corporate sponsorship.

But skepticism was trumped by inspiration, and everyone who spoke at the press conference laid it on thick. Tito noted that he will “come out a lot poorer as a result of this mission but my grandchildren will come out a lot richer for the inspiration it will give them." Constant reference was made to how this isn’t a mission for a man and a woman It will inspire the nation into believing anything is possible. It will inspire the next generation to pursue careers in STEM. It will be the Apollo for a new generation, never mind that Apollo was purely political in nature (selective readings of the Space Race are one of my pet peeves).

Inspiration Mars is, as the tag-line says, a mission for America. America, mind you. The crew will be American and their spacecraft and rocket will be American-made, though some parts might be imported from foreign nations. So if you’re middle-aged and in a stable marriage but not a U.S. Citizen, you and your spouse need not apply to fly.

That Tito’s millions are behind the first stages of this mission brings it closer to “maybe” end of the possibility spectrum. But it’s still a big maybe. It’s worth bearing in mind that history is littered with audacious goals that haven’t come to pass. Remember Excalibur Almaz, the UK-based company that wanted to launch affordable missions to the Moon?

A lot has to happen very quickly for Inspiration Mars to reach its goal, and a lot of unforeseen roadblocks are bound to pop up.
There are a lot of If's in there. If he can line up the funding for it, if he can find his two potential astronauts and train them in time, if the Falcon Heavy is ready in time to set it up to carry the capsule, if Bigelow carries through on delivering the inflatable hab, and so forth.

I hope they at least do something, and this doesn't just die off quietly as just another paper mission when funding fails to materialize.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

Post by Simon_Jester »

I... I really don't think he can pull it off. If it were just a question of adopting off the shelf equipment, it'd be doable maybe, with considerable risk to the lucky couple. If there was a superheavy lift rocket available for hire like Energia, they might be able to get the necessary life support and whatnot into a big enough wet workshop and launch properly.

I don't think the necessary hardware innovation can be made in five years with acceptable reliability.

If they do pull it off, mind... glory unimaginable. That's why I'm irritated at the failure to set up realistic deadlines; the same project would have been equally impressive if he'd started in 2008, and he'd have a much better chance of pulling it off.

As to radiation exposure- if they have the right kind of spacecraft, that solves itself; there'd be room for a decent storm shelter. That's why I wish they could just do something like the Venus flyby conceived for Apollo AAP, but no such rocket exists to make it happen.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

Post by Magis »

Simon_Jester wrote:As to radiation exposure- if they have the right kind of spacecraft, that solves itself; there'd be room for a decent storm shelter.
This just isn't true. Radiation exposure on that kind of trip is enormous; a quick flyby would result in an effective dose of at least 6 Sv. The major radiological risk in space aren't gammas, or betas, or alphas. In other words, it's not the kind of radiation that we shield against here on Earth in nuclear plants, etc. In space the real danger is with energetic heavy ions (namely Iron). Effective shielding would have to be large and heterogeneous, with some layers being needed to absorb the ions, and then additional shielding needed to absorb the secondary radiation from the ion deceleration.

NASA currently estimates that, even with the best practical shielding, a 20% to 40% risk of fatality from radiation on a return trip to Mars (without landing there). Irreparable DNA damage is expected to occur in 30% of all chromosomes of the traveler. However, there are some suspicious assumptions in these figures, mainly because our experience with radiation doses of that magnitude and from that type of radiation is limited bordering on nonexistent. Standard radiation and organ weighting factors for determining effective dose are also invalid in this scenario.

In addition to fatality risk, radiation cataract is almost a guarantee.

The only feasible way to limit the radiation dose to an acceptable level is to increase the speed of the craft thereby reducing the total duration of the voyage. There are a few ion engine conceptual designs that could accomplish that, but nothing that is even remotely close to production.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

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Magis wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:As to radiation exposure- if they have the right kind of spacecraft, that solves itself; there'd be room for a decent storm shelter.
This just isn't true. Radiation exposure on that kind of trip is enormous; a quick flyby would result in an effective dose of at least 6 Sv. The major radiological risk in space aren't gammas, or betas, or alphas. In other words, it's not the kind of radiation that we shield against here on Earth in nuclear plants, etc. In space the real danger is with energetic heavy ions (namely Iron). Effective shielding would have to be large and heterogeneous, with some layers being needed to absorb the ions, and then additional shielding needed to absorb the secondary radiation from the ion deceleration.
Are these the ions coming off the solar wind, or solar flares? Tito was planning to line part of the spacecraft with water/human wastes - if the layers is a couple inches to a foot thick, you've got some protection against that.

There's nothing you can do about other, more powerful sources like cosmic rays. You just have to take the dose, and try to minimize total travel time in interplanetary space. That's what astronauts do right now, in that they have a life-time radiation dose limit that caps how much time they get to spend in space (most of that dose comes from cosmic rays).
Magis wrote: NASA currently estimates that, even with the best practical shielding, a 20% to 40% risk of fatality from radiation on a return trip to Mars (without landing there). Irreparable DNA damage is expected to occur in 30% of all chromosomes of the traveler. However, there are some suspicious assumptions in these figures, mainly because our experience with radiation doses of that magnitude and from that type of radiation is limited bordering on nonexistent. Standard radiation and organ weighting factors for determining effective dose are also invalid in this scenario.
That's true. Anyone doing the Mars mission is going to come back with a higher chance of getting cancer.
Magis wrote: In addition to fatality risk, radiation cataract is almost a guarantee.
I've never heard of that being a potential risk. Do you have a source?
Magis wrote: The only feasible way to limit the radiation dose to an acceptable level is to increase the speed of the craft thereby reducing the total duration of the voyage. There are a few ion engine conceptual designs that could accomplish that, but nothing that is even remotely close to production.
There's VASIMR, but you need the power of either a nuclear submarine-level reactor or more than a million square meters of ISS-level solar panels to give it enough power to do a truly fast trip (the 39 days that has been mentioned in some of the public releases about it).
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

Post by Magis »

Guardsman Bass wrote:Are these the ions coming off the solar wind, or solar flares?
Neither, because they do not originate in our solar system. The HZE particles (high-Z number and energy) are a type of Galactic Cosmic Ray which are mainly produced in supernova.
Guardsman Bass wrote:Tito was planning to line part of the spacecraft with water/human wastes - if the layers is a couple inches to a foot thick, you've got some protection against that.
A few inches or foot of shielding is likely to be grossly insufficient, especially with those shielding materials. A number of nuclear interactions are possible when such high-energy particles (order of GeV) strike nuclei, including causing emissions of electromagnetic radiation as well as neutron radiation. Efficient shielding against EM requires high mass-number materials (i.e. not water / human waste), although water is a good shield against neutrons.
Guardsman Bass wrote:There's nothing you can do about other, more powerful sources like cosmic rays. You just have to take the dose, and try to minimize total travel time in interplanetary space. That's what astronauts do right now, in that they have a life-time radiation dose limit that caps how much time they get to spend in space (most of that dose comes from cosmic rays).
A single round-trip mission to Mars exceeds the NASA career dose limit by a minimum of 50%. The 10-year career dose limits vary by age, but for the oldest category of astronaut the limit is 4 Sv.
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Magis wrote: In addition to fatality risk, radiation cataract is almost a guarantee.
I've never heard of that being a potential risk. Do you have a source?
Sure.
Radiation exposure is well known to cause cataract formation in humans and animals ... The risk for humans of forming cataracts from space radiation exposure is difficult to extrapolate from animal experiments ... The single-dose threshold is 2 Gy (200 rad) for photons in humans, 4 Gy if the dose is delivered over 3 months, and 5.5 Gy if delivered over 3 years ... However, the threshold for mixed gamma-ray and neutron radiation may be lower than 1 Gy.
-Principles of Clinical Medicine for Space Flight, 2008.
It has long been suspected that exposure to solar particle events, galactic cosmic rays, and trapped protons and electrons would increase the lifelong risk of developing cataracts. Early studies of cancer patients suggested a dose threshold for cataracts of about 2 Gy, but these data from Cucinotta et al. (2001) showed that astronauts with exposures above 8 milliSieverts developed cataracts more frequently and at an earlier age than those exposed to less than 8 mSv ... 48 cases of lens opacification were subsequently culled from the data for 295 astronauts ...
-Review of NASA's Longitudinal Study of Astronaut Health, 2001.
The incidence of radiation cataracts is dose, time, and age dependent ... In situations in which occupational exposure occurs over a period of years, the threshold for cataract formation appears to be between 6 and 14 Gy
-Medical Management of Radiation Accidents, 2nd. Ed., 2001.

I hope that helps.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

Post by Guardsman Bass »

It does. But it doesn't sound like these things would kill the astronauts in transit, although they would leave them with some serious potential health risks upon return.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

Post by Jaepheth »

If they have a birth control failure early in the mission they could have a baby conceived, gestated, and delivered in space.

I'm sure that'll bring all sorts of potentially lethal complications.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

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That's why they're looking for a middle-aged couple to go. The chance of pregnancy is far, far lower to non-existent.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Jaepheth wrote:If they have a birth control failure early in the mission they could have a baby conceived, gestated, and delivered in space.

I'm sure that'll bring all sorts of potentially lethal complications.
As has been said, they're looking for a middle-aged couple to go. That, in itself, will somewhat lower the odds of conception; though they won't be sending a post-menopausal woman, since women of that age have a hard enough time retaining bone density without the whole 500 days of free-fall thing. They'll likely pick candidates who tolerate birth control pills well, and may give preference to couples who have already undergone sterilization procedures. And there is the distinct possibility that the couple chosen to go will be a gay or lesbian couple, which would solve the whole birth-control conundrum right there.

Mind you, while the couple may attempt sexual activity in space; I suspect that there will be at least one big discouraging factor; and that is that they will likely be under constant, invasive, monitoring. Mission Control is going to know whenever the couple engages in sex.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

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Magis wrote: Neither, because they do not originate in our solar system. The HZE particles (high-Z number and energy) are a type of Galactic Cosmic Ray which are mainly produced in supernova.
Am I correcting in assuming a strong enough magnetic field would be able to shield the crew?
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

MrDakka wrote:
Magis wrote: Neither, because they do not originate in our solar system. The HZE particles (high-Z number and energy) are a type of Galactic Cosmic Ray which are mainly produced in supernova.
Am I correcting in assuming a strong enough magnetic field would be able to shield the crew?
Yes, but, you'd need one of stupendous strength. Something on the order of 20 Tesla (about 400,000x the strength of Earth's magnetic field.) And you'd probably require two such fields. One to shield the crew from the incoming cosmic rays, and another of the opposite polarity to shield to crew from the first (as moving around inside static magnetic fields of a mere 0.5 Tesla is enough to cause electrolysis of saliva and other notable biological effects.)

To generate such a field would, by one estimate I've read, require some nine tons of superconducting cable, its associated cryogenic cooling, and the rigid structures required to keep said cables in place.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

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GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:As has been said, they're looking for a middle-aged couple to go. That, in itself, will somewhat lower the odds of conception; though they won't be sending a post-menopausal woman, since women of that age have a hard enough time retaining bone density without the whole 500 days of free-fall thing. They'll likely pick candidates who tolerate birth control pills well, and may give preference to couples who have already undergone sterilization procedures. And there is the distinct possibility that the couple chosen to go will be a gay or lesbian couple, which would solve the whole birth-control conundrum right there.
If the article is to be believed, no they won't:
Motherboard wrote:...the mission will send a heterosexual married couple to Mars...
This seems like an especially ridiculous place to be discriminatory, especially with the added risks of pregnancy during the mission. Unless the couple is guaranteed infertile, it takes only one screw-up to create a major problem.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

Post by MrDakka »

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote: Yes, but, you'd need one of stupendous strength. Something on the order of 20 Tesla (about 400,000x the strength of Earth's magnetic field.) And you'd probably require two such fields. One to shield the crew from the incoming cosmic rays, and another of the opposite polarity to shield to crew from the first (as moving around inside static magnetic fields of a mere 0.5 Tesla is enough to cause electrolysis of saliva and other notable biological effects.)

To generate such a field would, by one estimate I've read, require some nine tons of superconducting cable, its associated cryogenic cooling, and the rigid structures required to keep said cables in place.
There goes the mass ratio :D

BTW do you mind linking your source if its not too much trouble? I'd like to read it over for more details.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

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MrDakka wrote:
GrandMasterTerwynn wrote: Yes, but, you'd need one of stupendous strength. Something on the order of 20 Tesla (about 400,000x the strength of Earth's magnetic field.) And you'd probably require two such fields. One to shield the crew from the incoming cosmic rays, and another of the opposite polarity to shield to crew from the first (as moving around inside static magnetic fields of a mere 0.5 Tesla is enough to cause electrolysis of saliva and other notable biological effects.)

To generate such a field would, by one estimate I've read, require some nine tons of superconducting cable, its associated cryogenic cooling, and the rigid structures required to keep said cables in place.
There goes the mass ratio :D

BTW do you mind linking your source if its not too much trouble? I'd like to read it over for more details.
The first article I could find with hard numbers was here: http://www.thayer.dartmouth.edu/~d76205 ... ker_05.pdf
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

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I don't think anyone serious has been thinking in terms of sending something the weight of an Apollo capsule to Mars. This is part of why Mars initiatives have been coupled with a superheavy-lift rocket (AAP to Venus, Saturn V; Constellation, Ares V). When you can realistically put a hundred tons in LEO, you can get more flexible and versatile about sending up well-protected spacecraft that seriously reduce radiation hazards. Or at least moderately reduce them- something that stops half of all incoming radiation isn't "safe" by normal standards and wouldn't be "shielded" in any absolute sense, but it still halves your exposure on a long trip to Mars.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

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Simon_Jester wrote:I don't think anyone serious has been thinking in terms of sending something the weight of an Apollo capsule to Mars. This is part of why Mars initiatives have been coupled with a superheavy-lift rocket (AAP to Venus, Saturn V; Constellation, Ares V). When you can realistically put a hundred tons in LEO, you can get more flexible and versatile about sending up well-protected spacecraft that seriously reduce radiation hazards. Or at least moderately reduce them- something that stops half of all incoming radiation isn't "safe" by normal standards and wouldn't be "shielded" in any absolute sense, but it still halves your exposure on a long trip to Mars.
I'm not really sure what LEO has to do with this. But in any case, using a lot of mass to construct shielding may result in a higher overall dose than if that mass was instead used to increase the amount of propellant fuel on board.

Also, NASA's conclusions on the health effects of the journey are already assuming a 50% reduction in effective dose, since that's about the maximum practical amount of shielding that can be realized on such a trip (there comes a point where it's more useful to add propellant rather than shielding, as I said above).
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

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Magis wrote:I'm not really sure what LEO has to do with this.
Well, I'm thinking more in terms of orbiting a relatively large 'craft.' For the AAP mission profile for a Venus flyby, they were planning to use the third stage of a Saturn V as a wet workshop. While not ALL Mars plans use a large craft, we're normally looking at things heftier than an Apollo capsule- partly that's just practical, you can't stick people in an Apollo capsule for months. But it also has the collateral effect of making decent shielding at least remotely possible, in the sense of 'large percentage reduction.'

But I am speaking informally, and perhaps I should bow out of this line of discussion.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

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Actually I figure such a flyby would be a great thing to do precisely in order to study radiation hazards - IF you could find volunteers willing to subject themselves to it while understanding the (nasty) long-term risks. It's not like explorers haven't willingly risked death, injury, starvation, disease, frostbite and dehyration before, often coming back from their expeditions wounded and broken.

Of course even then they will have to be protected from damaging short-term effects so that they won't, well, die - but that's just one more in a litanny of reasons why we need those HEUGE rockets to really viably explore anywhere with manned spacecraft. They're not much use for anything else, frankly.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

Post by Simon_Jester »

Part of what's changed is that modern attitude toward risk is "if it's dangerous we won't take responsibility for sending you" rather than "I, Scott, take the chance of dying of cold in order to reach the South Pole." Since space travel is so much NOT a personal thing but is instead a huge collaborative project, whoever's in charge is usually more conservative with their explorers' lives than the explorers themselves would be.

As to the second paragraph- the other major application is large orbital stations, especially ones that have any kind of orbital infrastructure. Say, if we wanted to capture a Near Earth Asteroid to play around with mining it- that gets a lot simpler with a Big Dumb Booster.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

Post by Guardsman Bass »

They'd also be useful if you wanted to launch some truly immense space telescopes and satellites, or a large probe.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Guardsman Bass wrote:They'd also be useful if you wanted to launch some truly immense space telescopes and satellites, or a large probe.
Given that James Webb (if it ever launches) will be pretty damn big, the idea of a telescopes launched off a Saturn-scale rocket is just awesome. Giant Magellan Telescope...in SPAAACE!

On a serious and on-topic note, I heard from various astronomers and related boffins in Arizona that they are considering the married couple from the Biosphere mission. I'm afraid I don't have a source for that (aside from Jim Scotti of Spacewatch) but it's what I've heard.
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

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Eternal_Freedom wrote: Given that James Webb (if it ever launches) will be pretty damn big, the idea of a telescopes launched off a Saturn-scale rocket is just awesome. Giant Magellan Telescope...in SPAAACE!
Granted, but does current technology even allow us to build a telescope large enough to take full and proper advantage of this capability?

Also, yeah, how could I have forgotten about the awesome proposal for SLS payload...
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

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Didn't they recently figure out a way of shielding against solar wind with small magnets?
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

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GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:
MrDakka wrote:
Magis wrote: Neither, because they do not originate in our solar system. The HZE particles (high-Z number and energy) are a type of Galactic Cosmic Ray which are mainly produced in supernova.
Am I correcting in assuming a strong enough magnetic field would be able to shield the crew?
Yes, but, you'd need one of stupendous strength. Something on the order of 20 Tesla (about 400,000x the strength of Earth's magnetic field.) And you'd probably require two such fields. One to shield the crew from the incoming cosmic rays, and another of the opposite polarity to shield to crew from the first (as moving around inside static magnetic fields of a mere 0.5 Tesla is enough to cause electrolysis of saliva and other notable biological effects.)

To generate such a field would, by one estimate I've read, require some nine tons of superconducting cable, its associated cryogenic cooling, and the rigid structures required to keep said cables in place.
Why would you need such a strong field. A much weaker field protects on Earth
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Lagmonster
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Re: Private Mars Flyby Mission for 2018

Post by Lagmonster »

Darth Holbytlan wrote:
Motherboard wrote:...the mission will send a heterosexual married couple to Mars...
This seems like an especially ridiculous place to be discriminatory, especially with the added risks of pregnancy during the mission. Unless the couple is guaranteed infertile, it takes only one screw-up to create a major problem.
Could there be any possibility of an answer less in discrimination, and more in "what we know about long-term effects on isolated hetero couples, versus what we know about homosexual couples"? Of course, there could be absolutely no real difference at all for all I would know; I'm just hunting for the possibility of an explanation that would make sense.
Note: I'm semi-retired from the board, so if you need something, please be patient.
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