Humanity of the Clones

[Darth Klingon]

Were the clones just robots with flesh, who obey any order that they're given without thought? They not only obeyed Order 66 without question, but it seemed to me like they didn't even know what it meant consciously, it was just programmed into them like a software program is programmed into a computer, and when they heard it, they obeyed it out of instinct.

[Darksider]

In AOTC they might as well be droids. We never see them do anything "human." By ROTS Though, they're joking around with their Jedi Generals. They didn't really have distinct personalities at the onset of the war due to the rigid nature of their upbringing on Kamino, but during the war, as they befriended each other and the Jedi who led them, they got names instead of numbered designations, and developed real personalities.

As for Order 66, Who can say for sure. In the E.U. they weren't pre-programmed or compelled to obey it, the simply obeyed it because it was a lawful order from the lawful commander-in-chief of the Republic Armed Forces. Some even refused to obey it because they thought it was a trick or trusted the Jedi more than the Republic. An upcoming arc of TCW was actually meant to elaborate on the specifics of Order 66, but the show got cancelled so who knows.

[Stark]

They were conditioned from birth by their slavemasters, so its not surprising they're not well adjusted people with hobbies.

[Darth Klingon]

In AOTC they might as well be droids. We never see them do anything "human." By ROTS Though, they're joking around with their Jedi Generals. They didn't really have distinct personalities at the onset of the war due to the rigid nature of their upbringing on Kamino, but during the war, as they befriended each other and the Jedi who led them, they got names instead of numbered designations, and developed real personalities.

As for Order 66, Who can say for sure. In the E.U. they weren't pre-programmed or compelled to obey it, the simply obeyed it because it was a lawful order from the lawful commander-in-chief of the Republic Armed Forces. Some even refused to obey it because they thought it was a trick or trusted the Jedi more than the Republic. An upcoming arc of TCW was actually meant to elaborate on the specifics of Order 66, but the show got cancelled so who knows.

Just because the clones were raised to fight in wars, that doesn't necessarily make them mindless robots. Lots of people in certain cultures, especially during ancient times, were raised in a warrior cultures, but they had free will and personalities. On the other hand, there is some evidence to suggest that their mental capacity was more like a droid than other human.

In TCW, many of the clones had friendships with the Jedi, showing their human side. And if some clones disobeyed Order 66, that showed that they had at least some free will. However, in many bio-ethics debates, some scientists prove that sometime in the future, maybe even robots can have personalities and a consciousness. IIRC, even the droids in Star Wars have a consciousness.

[Adam Reynolds]

Regarding Order 66, the novelization of ROTS shows it briefly from Cody's(the clone commander serving Obi-Wan) perspective.

pg 345 hardcover

"It is time," the holoscam said, "Execute Order Sixty-Six"

Cody responded as he had been trained since before he'd ever awakened in his creche school. "It will be done, my lord"

The holoscan vanished. Cody stuck the comlink back into its concealed recess and frowned down towards where Kenobi rode his dragonmount into selflessly heroic battle.

Cody was a clone. He would execute the order faithfully, without hesitation or regret. But he was also human enough to mutter glumly, "Would it have been too much to ask for the order to have come through before I gave him back the bloody lightsaber ...?

This was just after he and Obi-Wan were joking about Obi-Wan loosing his lightsaber and that Obi-Wan had saved some of the droids for Cody and not destroyed them all as he'd promised. This manner was both shown in the movie as well as being shown by the Clone Wars series.

Also on page 348-349 there is a more general passage that described Order 66

Order Sixty-Six is the climax of the Clone Wars.

Not the end-the Clone Wars will end some few hours from now, when a coded signal, sent by Nute Gunray from the secret Separatist bunker on Mustafar, deactivates every combat droid in the galaxy at once-but the climax.

It's not a thrilling climax; it's not the culmination of an epic struggle. just the opposite, in fact. The Clone Wars were never an epic struggle. They were never intended to be.

What is happening right now is why the Clone Wars were fought int he first place. it is their reason for existence. The Clone Wars have always been, in and of themselves, from their very inception, the revenge of the Sith.

They were irresistible bait. the took place in remote locations, on planets that belonged, primarily, to "somebody else." They were fought by expendable proxies. And they were constructed as a win-win situation.

The Clone Wars were the perfect Jedi trap.

By fighting at all, the Jedi lost.

With the Jedi Order overextended, spread thin across the galaxy, each Jedi is alone, surrounded only by whatever clone troops he, she, or it commands. War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception. and the clones have no malice, no hatred, not the slightest ill intent that might give warning. They are only following orders.

In this case, Order Sixty-Six.

Hold-out blasters appear in clone hands. ARC-170s drop back onto the tails of Jedi starfighters. AT-STs swivel their guns. Turrets on hovertanks swung silently.

Clones open fire, and Jedi die.

All across the galaxy. All at once.

Jedi die.

How much free will they really have is an interesting question and these passages seem to suggest they have little. However there are accounts of Clones failing to comply with the order(the novel Dark Lord). However the clones in that story are commandos who had less genetic engineering over their level of conformity compared to the standard. Regarding the idea that it was merely a lawful order the likely conclusion here is that it was, but also that the reason that it wasn't questioned was due to the reduced independence levels that were engineered by the Kaminoans. The clones that ignored it were obviously more independent and in their current position felt those orders didn't make any sense.

[Darth Klingon]

They were conditioned from birth by their slavemasters, so its not surprising they're not well adjusted people with hobbies.

I don't think they were slaves in the sense that they were being forced into it. As AdamSkywalker007 said, they were programmed to obey orders. Some of the clones had free will and disobeyed Palpatine's commands, but that's because they weren't genetically engineered into obedience as strongly as the other clones. The average clone had no independence. They weren't so much slaves, as they were brainwashed.

[Darksider]

I don't think they were slaves in the sense that they were being forced into it.

Wait, what? How does being programmed to obey orders from birth not count as "being forced into it?"

[Stark]

I don't think they were slaves in the sense that they were being forced into it.

So they're not raised from birth to fight child soldiers as shown in AOTC? How's that?

As AdamSkywalker007 said, they were programmed to obey orders.

Yeah, programmed by being trained from birth as shown in AOTC. Where does the idea they were somehow less intelligent than humans or bereft of free will come from?

Some of the clones had free will and disobeyed Palpatine's commands, but that's because they weren't genetically engineered into obedience as strongly as the other clones. The average clone had no independence. They weren't so much slaves, as they were brainwashed.

So if I rape you until you're institutionalised and like being raped, you're not a slave? You're 'just' brainwashed? Talk about splitting fucking hairs.

Is this idea that clonetroopers are inhuman or 'part human' just based on people not wanted ot accept order 66?

[Darth Klingon]

I don't think they were slaves in the sense that they were being forced into it.

Wait, what? How does being programmed to obey orders from birth not count as "being forced into it?"

The Clones were slaves, but not in the sense that most people would think of being a slave. Unlike slaves in real life, who desire to escape but are forced to serve somebody, the Clones were brainwashed and didn't even make a conscious decision about if they wanted to obey orders.

[Batman]

Actually at least going by the Clone Wars cartoons, they had independence aplenty. Not only were they completely capable of deserting and going native, they have-shall we say creatively interpreted their orders?
Plus, there's programming, and there's programming, and you don't want the Clones to be too rigidly set in their responses because you can't anticipate any possible situation. Some things the Clone Masters may have hardwired in something fierce (Order 66 probably one of them), but the Clones definitely had a fair smidgen of free will. Brainwashed, definitely, but a far cry from robots.
Or maybe not so far a cry afterall, as it is apparently far from unheard of for droids to go 'the hell what Master told me, I'll do what I think is best'

[Stark]

Is there any evidence they reacted differently than any mind-fucked slave would have in the situation? They were entirely institutionalised and conditioned to obey for their entire lives and were given an order they were trained not to give a shit about. So... what?

They're not slaves, they're just brainwashed! They don't want to escape, because of the brainwashing, so they aren't human.

This is the sort of crypto-fascist stuff I have come to expect from nerds. Write a novel that puts a happy, nerd-chic perspective on despicable crimes or disgusting methods and they'll not only swallow it, but defend and excuse it.

[Darth Klingon]

I don't think they were slaves in the sense that they were being forced into it.

So they're not raised from birth to fight child soldiers as shown in AOTC? How's that?

The clones were human. They weren't machines being programmed like a computer, they were human beings with a consciousnesses, an intelligence, and a free will. The clones were child soldiers, technically. Many fans don't notice that because of their unnatural growth, but they are still children in chronological years. In real life, child soldiers in certain countries are often indoctrinated to fight in wars. I would call that brainwashing, not slavery.

As AdamSkywalker007 said, they were programmed to obey orders.

Yeah, programmed by being trained from birth as shown in AOTC. Where does the idea they were somehow less intelligent than humans or bereft of free will come from? [/quote]

The clones still had free will and intelligence, but, just like somebody who's indoctrinated and brainwashed, it's often hard for that person to come to a realization to make their own choices instead of doing what somebody else tells them. In the Clone Wars show, the clones showed humanity. They not only had friendships with the Jedi, but some of them were deserters, IIRC. That isn't slavery if you have the option to leave. They were child soldiers raised to fight from birth.

Also, I never called the clonetroopers subhuman. A child soldier, raised from birth, and indoctrinated to fight, and knowing nothing else, is not subhuman.

The Clones that didn't follow Order 66 weren't as brainwashed as the other clones, because their genetic engineering didn't mutate them to the extent that it did to the other clones. It was basically brainwashing through genetic engineering and indoctrination.

[Batman]

The slaves in the pre-Civil War US had the option to leave too. It was called running away. For the Clones, it was called treason. Call me silly, but when your only option to leave your occupation is considered a crime and carries sever penalties up to and possibly including death, yeah, I think that qualifies as slavery.

[The Romulan Republic]

I wasn't aware that nerd=secretly fascist.

Anyway, clones are not completely mindless. There are a number of examples of this. People have already brought that up though.

I wonder if they were inhuman though, not because of a lack of thought but because they were genetically engineered. How much would someone have to be altered to be non-human?

[Darth Klingon]

Is there any evidence they reacted differently than any mind-fucked slave would have in the situation? They were entirely institutionalised and conditioned to obey for their entire lives and were given an order they were trained not to give a shit about. So... what?

They're not slaves, they're just brainwashed! They don't want to escape, because of the brainwashing, so they aren't human.

This is the sort of crypto-fascist stuff I have come to expect from nerds. Write a novel that puts a happy, nerd-chic perspective on despicable crimes or disgusting methods and they'll not only swallow it, but defend and excuse it.

I never called the Clones subhuman, so get that idea out of your head. I also know that the Clones had free will to a certain extent. As Batman said earlier in this thread, they used their intelligence to interpret orders, and some of them even deserted. Despite the genetic engineering, they still had a lot of humanity in them. They weren't mindless.

Like any other child soldier, they are indoctrinated and brainwashed. As Batman said, some of the Clones deserted. If a slave in the American South tried leaving the plantation, he would be severely punished. He had no choice but to stay there. I can't think of any specific examples, but I remember certain clones who deserted feared facing punishment.

That's not called slavery, that's called conscription. Were drafted soldiers during the Vietnam War being forced to fight an unjust war? Possibly, depending on how you chose to view it. Were the slaves? Definitely not. It was war. Forcing somebody to fight a war is not slavery.

[Batman]

If you want to get nitpicky, a fuckton of humans are already genetically engineered. Every time a hetero copule decides to get together and have children, that's essentially selective breeding. Which is a crude method but still is genetic engineering.
Now for your actual question their physical capacities, if they have been tinkered with at all, are at the upper end of but firmly within normal human levels, (be it by virtue of the Fett template or modification), most of what has been done to them seems to be a) the slightly accelerated growth process, and b)indoctrination (however it was done). I'd call them human.

[Batman]

Like any other child soldier, they are indoctrinated and brainwashed. As Batman said, some of the Clones deserted. If a slave in the American South tried leaving the plantation, he would be severely punished. He had no choice but to stay there. I can't think of any specific examples, but I remember certain clones who deserted feared facing punishment.
That's not called slavery, that's called conscription.

Um-yes,when you're born into it, have no legal recourse to get out of it (you can legally avoid conscription if you're willing to go the distance, which depending on country and circumstances isn't necessarily all that far), yes, I think I'm sticking with slavery.

Were drafted soldiers during the Vietnam War being forced to fight an unjust war? Possibly, depending on how you chose to view it. Were the slaves? Definitely not. It was war. Forcing somebody to fight a war is not slavery.

Raising somebody from birth and programming them to think they have to, and not giving them a legal way out, however, is.

[Darth Klingon]

If you want to get nitpicky, a fuckton of humans are already genetically engineered. Every time a hetero copule decides to get together and have children, that's essentially selective breeding. Which is a crude method but still is genetic engineering.
Now for your actual question their physical capacities, if they have been tinkered with at all, are at the upper end of but firmly within normal human levels, (be it by virtue of the Fett template or modification), most of what has been done to them seems to be a) the slightly accelerated growth process, and b)indoctrination (however it was done). I'd call them human.

I agree. They weren't subhuman. You're confusing normal selective breeding, which is just picking and choosing traits to reproduce with, to actually going into somebody's genes and trying to program their personality and obedience into them genetically. The two situations are similar to a certain extent, but one of them is much more "extreme", so to speak, in altering (or rather trying to program) a person's behavior. I'll use an analogy with selective breeding dogs.

There's a difference between picking certain dogs with specific traits to create offspring that share those traits, and actually trying to program a dog's behavior artificially, into their genes.

However, I disagree with your assertion that the Clones were slaves. They were draftees, not slaves.

[Darth Klingon]

Not all draftees had a way to get out of it. Yes, some of them did, but I don't think the Nazis or the Japanese gave their soldiers a way out of military service during WW2. Yet I wouldn't call that slavery.

However, you made a pretty good point, Batman, at least the Americans during the Civil War and the Vietnam War weren't forced into it at birth. They had a life beyond war. Before the war, they had a normal life as a child, and if they survived the war, they were allowed to live as normal citizens. They weren't forced to live their entire lives as soldiers.

However, according to Wikipedia, child soldiers aren't considered slaves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_use_of_children

[Batman]

1. It's a difference in degree, not principle. One is highly sophisticated genetic engineering, the other is crude crossbreeding, but it's still genetic engineering. And I was just being nitpicky.
2. Draftees have, up until the draft hitting them, normal lives. Friends, going to school, spectacularly failing that math test, finally getting to see that new movie they were looking forward to, oh, and...girls. The Clones had...training, training, training. Can't recall any female Clones? That's because there weren't any. Hrm, people being deprived of the elements of everyday life that everybody else takes for granted, for all their lives while doing what somebody else decided was their duty. Now what do we call people like that again...
Darftees have, once the draft hits them, several legal options. They can tell the government to go to hell and accept the jail sentence, they can opt for civil service instead, they can emigrate to another country and renounce their citizenship of the one that wants to draft them. The clones can...desert.
Yeah, I think I'm sticking with slavery.

[Batman]

Not all draftees had a way to get out of it. Yes, some of them did, but I don't think the Nazis or the Japanese gave their soldiers a way out of military service during WW2. Yet I wouldn't call that slavery.

I'd say a solid case could be made it was, but even those weren't born into it. The Clones were.

[Stark]

I wasn't aware that nerd=secretly fascist.

It apparently does mean 'can't read', but Ive learned to expect convenient snap judgements too.

I wonder if they were inhuman though, not because of a lack of thought but because they were genetically engineered. How much would someone have to be altered to be non-human?

Is this you being not fascist? :v

He's saying they have no volition even though I'm not sure why this would be the case, and further saying that because they have no volition mistreating them is ok. Defining people as 'not human' so you can misuse them (but phrasing it a different way to feel better about it) is exactly the behaviour I'm talking about. It might be true; the Republic may have created a race of mules to die in their stead. This shouldn't be a thing people try to defend.

I think the laugh is that the Republic would obviously desire to dehumanise the clones because its convenient politically. Luckily lots of people are willing to agree and cheer along with the idea.

[Darth Klingon]

1. It's a difference in degree, not principle. One is highly sophisticated genetic engineering, the other is crude crossbreeding, but it's still genetic engineering. And I was just being nitpicky.
2. Draftees have, up until the draft hitting them, normal lives. Friends, going to school, spectacularly failing that math test, finally getting to see that new movie they were looking forward to, oh, and...girls. The Clones had...training, training, training. Can't recall any female Clones? That's because there weren't any. Hrm, people being deprived of the elements of everyday life that everybody else takes for granted, for all their lives while doing what somebody else decided was their duty. Now what do we call people like that again...
Darftees have, once the draft hits them, several legal options. They can tell the government to go to hell and accept the jail sentence, they can opt for civil service instead, they can emigrate to another country and renounce their citizenship of the one that wants to draft them. The clones can...desert.
Yeah, I think I'm sticking with slavery.

Let's just forget about the Clone's free will for now, and discuss the slavery aspect of it.

Can you give me any specific examples of real life children being raised from birth and forced to fight, since they were young, never living a normal life? In my opinion, that's slavery. I'm curious if the media interprets that as slavery or not, but that's slavery in my opinion. That's relevant to this topic because the Clones were technically child soldiers.

I disagree with what you said about legal ways to get out of drafting. Many draftees had no legal way to get out of it. But even in those situations, I wouldn't consider it slavery. The reason for that is this. They had normal lives before and after being drafted.

[Batman]

Isn't that what I have said? Repeatedly?

[Stark]

He's trying to weasel out of the term 'slave race'.