A curious item I found- 56k beware.

[Iroscato]

Hey guys, I was wondering if you could help in providing some backstory to this item I found. All I know from the man that sold it to me is it's a wood plane, possibly given to someone who won the Victoria Cross.
Engraved on it, is G.V (probably George V, meaning it's 1930's at latest) R.S.M J.LEE V.C. Then in larger engraving to the right, RE (which apparently stands for Royal Engineers).
Could anyone tell me:
-why this item would be given out in the first place?
-Potential market value, if any?

Either way, this is a nice curiosity item.
Thanks in advance

[Irbis]

"R.S.M." would presumably be Regimental Sergeant Major, but I can't find anyone with that rank (nor named Lee, either) in the list I have - but seeing George V reign seen the largest number of VC ever awarded, it might just be incomplete.

Also, it would be nice to have close photo of engraving, seeing it's illegible on your images...

[LaCroix]

Could you make a picture from the front and the sole of the plane? To me it looks like a molding plane, a precursor of the router... I just can't yet see the sole, but I think it's a Tongue and Groove type...

[Warden]

"R.S.M." would presumably be Regimental Sergeant Major, but I can't find anyone with that rank (nor named Lee, either) in the list I have - but seeing George V reign seen the largest number of VC ever awarded, it might just be incomplete.

Also, it would be nice to have close photo of engraving, seeing it's illegible on your images...

The Only J.Lee i can see with a VC is Joseph Lee who won it in 1857 during the Indian Mutiny.

[Irbis]

The Only J.Lee i can see with a VC is Joseph Lee who won it in 1857 during the Indian Mutiny.

That was good 70 years before George V, though, right in the middle of reign of Queen Victoria.

[xt828]

"R.S.M." would presumably be Regimental Sergeant Major, but I can't find anyone with that rank (nor named Lee, either) in the list I have - but seeing George V reign seen the largest number of VC ever awarded, it might just be incomplete.

Also, it would be nice to have close photo of engraving, seeing it's illegible on your images...

The Only J.Lee i can see with a VC is Joseph Lee who won it in 1857 during the Indian Mutiny.

Could you link me to this? I looked on the National Archives site, and the only Lee they have with a VC is Bernard Warburton-Lee in 1940.

[madd0ct0r]

Could you make a picture from the front and the sole of the plane? To me it looks like a molding plane, a precursor of the router... I just can't yet see the sole, but I think it's a Tongue and Groove type...

I think he's right:

Here has a good selection of different planes so you know what to look for: http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/articl ... Basics.php

and this is a another good photo

I think the name was punched on, so he may have had a metal stamp and blackened the depression after. That implies he worked with other groups of tool users, and his tools were not shared - so reasonably high up?

Are we talking a gunsmith here? a plane designed for part of a rifle stock?

[Warden]

I have to link to the VC wiki page unfortunately as the Imperial war Museum archive hasn't been made available online.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Jee


he was a surgeon so at the time of his award held no official rank, this may be part of a display that has been cannibalised later on as the rank of Regimental Surgeon Major didn't exist till the 1870s. If you don't mind taking closer photos of the carving I'll post it on Mill photos and pass it on to my friend.

[madd0ct0r]

so why was he carrying around a specialist plane belonging to the royal engineers?

[Torben]

I have to link to the VC wiki page unfortunately as the Imperial war Museum archive hasn't been made available online.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Jee


he was a surgeon so at the time of his award held no official rank, this may be part of a display that has been cannibalised later on as the rank of Regimental Surgeon Major didn't exist till the 1870s. If you don't mind taking closer photos of the carving I'll post it on Mill photos and pass it on to my friend.

Warden,

The link you posted is for a page for one Joseph Jee, not J. Lee. During that time was it common to transpose/replace L's with J's, or could it be something like the 18th century era S looking like an F when written? Otherwise, might it not be the same person, especially since the other items like the George V and RE stampings not matching?

[Thanas]

Can you give us a closer shot of the engraving?

[LaCroix]

Are we talking a gunsmith here? a plane designed for part of a rifle stock?

This tool cannot be used in gunsmithing as in rifle making. It could be used in making gun carriages or ship building, or general carpentry. Wherever you want to join planks into a wall.

Marking such a tool would be common, for these things are handy as hell, complicated to make, and only work as matching pair (the other will be tossed if one is damaged, it is easier to make a new set than a replacement - I guess this one only survived because of the marking).

Since they turn hours of sawing and chiselling with high probablility of mishaps into an easy 5 minute job, everyone would mark them - they are the ye-olde-time version of a CNC router.

[Iroscato]

Ok, here's my best attempt at capturing the detail in the engraving. Apologies for the picture quality.




The engraving next to RE is pretty worn, but I can make out that it says Norris.

[Thanas]

Those pics are nearly worthless.

[Iroscato]

Those pics are nearly worthless.

Grr.
I'll have another go tomorrow.

[madd0ct0r]

Are we talking a gunsmith here? a plane designed for part of a rifle stock?

This tool cannot be used in gunsmithing as in rifle making. It could be used in making gun carriages or ship building, or general carpentry. Wherever you want to join planks into a wall.

Marking such a tool would be common, for these things are handy as hell, complicated to make, and only work as matching pair (the other will be tossed if one is damaged, it is easier to make a new set than a replacement - I guess this one only survived because of the marking).

Since they turn hours of sawing and chiselling with high probablility of mishaps into an easy 5 minute job, everyone would mark them - they are the ye-olde-time version of a CNC router.

I was thinking maybe it wasn't a paired tongue and groove plane, but something that cut a precise groove with a precise shape down a length of wood like a rifle stock - perhaps something to do with the rifle barrel interacting with the stock below it? Your suggestion sounds good, maybe it was just something he marked with his usual tool stamp then? (or he worked as a carpenter post army...)

At Chimaera - use the macro function, and can you get us one of the plane's sole too?

[LaCroix]

While the mark is quite unusual and poorly made, Norris was a plane maker in London, established in 1860. They usually made steel planes, but I there are with wodden body aroud, usually really old ones. These guys might be able to help you confirming the brand : http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/articles/norris.htm
(That article also shows how riddicoulously expensive these things were.)

I was thinking maybe it wasn't a paired tongue and groove plane, but something that cut a precise groove with a precise shape down a length of wood like a rifle stock - perhaps something to do with the rifle barrel interacting with the stock below it? Your suggestion sounds good, maybe it was just something he marked with his usual tool stamp then? (or he worked as a carpenter post army...)

I doubt it, this one looks like a standard size to me - 3/8 or 1/2 inch (with a good bit of +/-, like all of them). Also, since the late eighteenhundreds, rifle stocks were made in bulk by specialized copy-lathes, and the little bit of work that needed to be done to fit them would be made with a chisel.

Just an Idea:
A different example of these planes carries the brand, worker's and the company name.


So it might be that the VC stamp was the commander/company stamp and "Norris" the worker. (I doubt it, but it might be.)

[Thanas]

Impossible to confirm without better pics, but are you thinking VC might just be V Company?

[LaCroix]

There are only like 1400 recipients of the Victoria cross - none named Lee. So I would propose it is the 5th company...
The GV could be standard for all stamps with the Royal engineers - just like Enfield rifles are marked with V.R (Victoria Regina) or G.R (George Rex)

So my theory is:

Norris brand plane, Propery of the ROYAL ENGINEERS, issued to RSM J. Lee, 5th company

[LaCroix]

There are only like 1400 recipients of the Victoria cross - none named Lee. So I would propose it is the 5th company...
The GV could be standard for all stamps with the Royal engineers - just like Enfield rifles are marked with V.R (Victoria Regina) or G.R (George Rex)

So my theory is:

Norris brand plane, Propery of the ROYAL ENGINEERS, issued to RSM J. Lee, 5th company

edit:
RE Field Companies

[Thanas]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[LaCroix]

People like
http://www.reubique.com/
or a search in
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/cat ... spx?cat=39
(search within all surviving british military records, but I don't want to pay for it) would give details.