Boston Terror Attacks

[Sea Skimmer]

Anyway, from the one video that the news keeps showing, it seems like that barrier between the runners and spectators contained part of the blast? Either that, or they were just out of range of the worst of it.

Just out of range certainly. At the first bomb site not even one of the numerous flags appeared to have the slightest damage, nor were the fences much torn into, and wounds are overwhelmingly on lower bodies. These were overall, weak bombs that appear to have been directional devices of some sort that kept the angle low, removing a lot of limbs but perhaps actually keeping the death toll low. Possible shaped or tamped charge? Many injuries may well have came from flying body parts, as gruesomely happens in explosions like this. The one runner in the street who appeared to be hit by a fragment or otherwise collapsed was probably a fluke.

As for the graphic photos, worse ones exist on the net, and video on youtube even (which also has 500,000 videos of Apaches blowing people apart, funny they never get censored but stuff with dead americans does by google) then just that one maimed guy in a wheelchair. Frankly Americans are far too sensitive to the subject of showing what actuallyhappens when we engage in so much violence and warfare at home, and all over the world. It should be shown.

[Broomstick]

I think it should be available for viewing, but not everyone is going to handle seeing such carnage well. Young children, and people who would find such images traumatizing, should not be subjected to such, especially not without warning. I don't have a problem with pixelation or cropping of the worst images for things like TV broadcasts. On the internet something warning about graphic content isn't out of line. Even people who want to know the unvarnished truth might not want to see it while, say, eating dinner.

[Sea Skimmer]

Gee you know, somehow I don't think young children should be browsing the internet to look at the aftermath of a bombing in the first place if you want to shield them from the world, and if its unsupervised a mature warning certainly isn't going to stop them. More like ants to honey.

TV censorship, when the subject actively changes without your intervention, is more understandable but I still think the US censors too much and that this has a direct and negative impact on American perceptions of the world. Maybe not a huge one, but it is unhelpful. Personally I think its kind of weird to want to view pictures of a bombing at all, but not know what actually happened.

[gigabytelord]

2 bombs is "well coordinated"? Maybe if they were across town from each other.

Apparently there were actually up to four bombs but only two went off.

[Broomstick]

Putting a "this is very graphic" warning on something is NOT censorship. Such a warning enables a supervising parent to step in before the kid sees something that may (in the parent's opinion) be too intense for a young child. I also do not think young children should be web surfing unsupervised. Eventually, of course, they get old enough to do it on the sly but there's a different between a teenager looking at this sort of thing and, say, a five year old.

The other utility in putting a warning on such graphic content is so that adults who do not wish to see such things do not have to.

None of this sets anything aside as forbidden or impossible to access. It does prevent people from being subjected to disturbing or upsetting content without warning.

[FSTargetDrone]

But hey, kudos to the guy in the cowboy hat next to him - just an ordinary bystander, not medically trained, who nonetheless stepped forward and used his bare hands to clamp down on the injured man's leg artery to keep him from bleeding out on the spot.

That's the thing - horrific events like this also bring out the everyday folks as heroes. Quite a few people ran towards the injured to help even after the second bomb went off.

Absolutely. I hope I'd get over my queasiness and not stand there uselessly if I was ever in that situation.

[CaptHawkeye]

As for the graphic photos, worse ones exist on the net, and video on youtube even (which also has 500,000 videos of Apaches blowing people apart, funny they never get censored but stuff with dead americans does by google) then just that one maimed guy in a wheelchair. Frankly Americans are far too sensitive to the subject of showing what actuallyhappens when we engage in so much violence and warfare at home, and all over the world. It should be shown.

Indeed. Too many have a picture of war being some kind of adventure and injuries being limited to Hollywood makeup effects. Their is just way, way too much callousness towards violence in American society. I mean case in point, people are throwing around "advances in limb replacement" as if it's a magic cure for people who just had their lives changed by the loss of a limb. I don't think telling victims about how awesome artificial legs are these days is going to mean much to them right now.

War and violence is horrible, the worst casualties aren't just the dead.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Here's what Slate magazine had to say about limb amputation and reattachment in 2005:

Late Saturday night in Anchorage, Alaska, a man's girlfriend cut off his penis and flushed it down the toilet. A municipal worker recovered the penis; surgeons had sewed it back on by morning. How long can you wait before reattaching a severed body part?

A day or two, at least. The man in Alaska was lucky to have his penis sawed off in a frigid climate (though the incident did occur indoors). A severed finger can survive for at least 12 hours in a warm environment and up to a couple of days if refrigerated. Some reports indicate that body parts can survive for as many as four days before being reattached.

Doctors suggest that a severed penis or other body part should be sealed in a plastic bag and placed on ice. Direct contact with the ice can cause frostbite and damage the tissue, and suspending severed body parts in water has been shown to make reattachment more difficult.

Not every part of the body is as resilient as the finger. Muscle tends to have a faster metabolism than other kinds of tissue, so a severed arm or leg will deteriorate more quickly than your pinkie (a full limb must be reattached within six hours to 12 hours). Cartilage has a particularly slow metabolism, so a severed ear or nose can be quite durable. The types of tissues in the penis actually make it an excellent candidate for longer stretches in the ice bucket.

The first step in reattaching a body part is to restore blood flow by reconnecting the arteries. For the procedure to work, the severed tissue must be alive, and the severed arteries must be large enough to manipulate using microsurgical techniques. The blood vessels in the finger are about one or 1.5 millimeters wide (depending on where you cut); vessels in the penis tend to be somewhat bigger and easier to work with.

You also need to reattach the veins, or blood won't be able to flow out of the severed part. Without a conduit for outflow, the body part will swell, which can cause tissue damage. When veins can't be sewn up right away, surgeons apply live leeches. A single leech can suck up 10 cubic centimeters of blood from a severed penis; a chemical in its saliva, hirudin, keeps blood from clotting and allows continued drainage.

Tendons, bone, and nerves must also be reattached. In general, the cleaner the cut, the more simple the operation. Ears, which have small arteries and which, when severed, are often ripped off or bitten off, tend to be tricky.

Even in the case of a clean cut, surgeons often remove some tissue to shorten the appendage. When the veins and arteries are stretched, tension on the stitches can jeopardize the procedure; shortening the severed part allows a bit of slack. In situations where significant shortening is undesirable, vein grafts from other parts of the body can provide some leeway.

Not to be morbid, but I imagine the hardest part will be matching limbs to victims...

Same thing crossed my mind- here's hoping at least some can be reattached

[EnterpriseSovereign]

As for the graphic photos, worse ones exist on the net, and video on youtube even (which also has 500,000 videos of Apaches blowing people apart, funny they never get censored but stuff with dead americans does by google) then just that one maimed guy in a wheelchair. Frankly Americans are far too sensitive to the subject of showing what actuallyhappens when we engage in so much violence and warfare at home, and all over the world. It should be shown.

Indeed. Too many have a picture of war being some kind of adventure and injuries being limited to Hollywood makeup effects. Their is just way, way too much callousness towards violence in American society. I mean case in point, people are throwing around "advances in limb replacement" as if it's a magic cure for people who just had their lives changed by the loss of a limb. I don't think telling victims about how awesome artificial legs are these days is going to mean much to them right now.

War and violence is horrible, the worst casualties aren't just the dead.

When you see how horrible some of those injuries are, I can't help but think that some would actually be better off dead. It's a sick kind of terrorist that places bombs with the same goal as someone who designs fucking land mines, since someone who is "merely" wounded is far more trouble to a country than someone who is simply dead.

[Broomstick]

Indeed. Too many have a picture of war being some kind of adventure and injuries being limited to Hollywood makeup effects. Their is just way, way too much callousness towards violence in American society.

While I agree with the statement that American society is way too callous towards violence I don't think the answer is throwing graphic scenes of carnage across the TV during dinner time. That could just as easily inflame emotions best not provoked as "educate" the American republic.

I mean case in point, people are throwing around "advances in limb replacement" as if it's a magic cure for people who just had their lives changed by the loss of a limb. I don't think telling victims about how awesome artificial legs are these days is going to mean much to them right now.

I'm thinking there will be an extra psychological wound for people who are running enthusiasts who get a leg or two blown off while watching/participating in a marathon.

I also want to slap Americans who go "yay! limb replacement!" because the idiots clearly haven't considered the cost and the way the health insurance companies are going to try to dodge paying for it. It would really suck to know the technology is out there but not be able to access it because you simply don't have the money or insurance coverage for it.

[Irbis]

I'm fairly certain this was done by foreign terrorists- I suspect al-Qaida. Why?

1) Domestic terrorist groups have select targets, e.g., white supremists will attack places where non-whites gather, like churches in predominantly black neighborhoods, or synagogues; Christian fundamentalists will attack people and places where specific sins are committed, like abortion clinics; militia and survivalists specifically attack GOVERNMENT institutions. The Boston Marathon seems too diverse a target- people of different races, religions, and sexual orientation, all gathered together and causing great difficulty in picking out the people a domestic terrorist would want to kill, from those he would NOT. In contrast, the standard "Death to America!" type doesn't discriminate targets.

Except, foreign terrorists do it for publicity. To kick the "great Satan" for real or imaginary slights. Had it been such a group, why no one claimed responsibility by now or bragged how hard they struck the infidels? It makes no sense...

Another point - foreign people would have harder time to blend in and plant explosives without being noticed or questioned. No, all leads so far point at domestic attacker, IMHO.

Same reason why it can't be North Korea - not only it has pretty much zero capability to insert convincing agents to east coast of US, no one there is insane enough to do something like that post 9/11.

Tell me, would you call mcVeight or Rudolph attacks too diverse? Both were pretty much identical to this one...

2) Lone nutcases may not discriminate targets, but the attacks seem well-coordinated- CNN reports the authorities are looking for a truck that was prevented from entering a restricted area, plus a dark-skinned man with a foreign accent. I doubt a lone nutcase will have the patience to make more than two bombs, and NOT use the devices as soon as possible, because he/she wants to set off three or more bombs at once- that suggests the bombs were assembled by a group or party.

Breivik had patience to make bombs to draw law enforcement away to do his shooting spree. Was he well-coordinated group too?

Other bombs might have simply failed, someone turned off cell network too fast for attacker, or any number of other reasons, really.

[Ziggy Stardust]

2 bombs is "well coordinated"? Maybe if they were across town from each other.

Apparently there were actually up to four bombs but only two went off.

According to the latest information I can find, it is currently confirmed only that there were the two bombs that went off. There were several unattended bags (possible bombs) that were detonated as a precautionary measure, but forensic analysis has indicated that none of them were bombs. So, at the moment, there were only those two bombs that went off.

Which, again, is surprising that they are referring to this as a "well coordinated" attack. They were two small bombs about a block away from each other that went off at a less-than-optimal time if maximum death/carnage was your goal (others have already indicated that a little earlier or even a little later could have been more disastrous than it already was).

-------

Another point - foreign people would have harder time to blend in and plant explosives without being noticed or questioned. No, all leads so far point at domestic attacker, IMHO.

On the other hand, an event like the Boston Marathon attracts thousands of people from all over the world. At an event like this, I think there are simply too many people from too many places for any particular profiling attempt to be in any way useful.

[Broomstick]

Another point - foreign people would have harder time to blend in and plant explosives without being noticed or questioned. No, all leads so far point at domestic attacker, IMHO.

In this case, I have to disagree. Boston and the immediate area is quite cosmopolitan, and on top of that the Boston Marathon attracts people from all over the world. No one will be out of place in the crowd for that event.

[Col. Crackpot]

Another point - foreign people would have harder time to blend in and plant explosives without being noticed or questioned. No, all leads so far point at domestic attacker, IMHO.

In this case, I have to disagree. Boston and the immediate area is quite cosmopolitan, and on top of that the Boston Marathon attracts people from all over the world. No one will be out of place in the crowd for that event.

Speaking as someone who routinely visits the city every week or so I can confirm this. Reputations of Irish American dominance are greatly overstated and Boston is quite diverse and tourists are many and varied.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I mean case in point, people are throwing around "advances in limb replacement" as if it's a magic cure for people who just had their lives changed by the loss of a limb. I don't think telling victims about how awesome artificial legs are these days is going to mean much to them right now.

I'm thinking there will be an extra psychological wound for people who are running enthusiasts who get a leg or two blown off while watching/participating in a marathon.

I also want to slap Americans who go "yay! limb replacement!" because the idiots clearly haven't considered the cost and the way the health insurance companies are going to try to dodge paying for it. It would really suck to know the technology is out there but not be able to access it because you simply don't have the money or insurance coverage for it.

These people clearly don't stop to appreciate that an artificial limb is no substitute for the original. For one, no artificial limb can emulate the sensory feedback that the natural one provides (as far as I'm aware anyway), let alone the appearance. Unless they think they've advanced to the point demonstrated in TESB, or even that shown in I, Robot IMO, the sooner science advances to the point that biological replacement limbs can be grown in the lab, the better.

[Irbis]

On the other hand, an event like the Boston Marathon attracts thousands of people from all over the world. At an event like this, I think there are simply too many people from too many places for any particular profiling attempt to be in any way useful.

Speaking as someone who routinely visits the city every week or so I can confirm this. Reputations of Irish American dominance are greatly overstated and Boston is quite diverse and tourists are many and varied.

While it might be easier for tourist to blend in there than in other places in the USA, I still don't see how a tourist, even explosives expert, would have easy time procuring materials and infrastructure needed to build multiple bombs on a short stay, distribute them, and go away unnoticed, all without attracting attention of multiple US home defence agencies trying to find such people. There are too many things that can go wrong here, while US citizen has time, currency, customs, papers and all the other things that mitigate it to huge extent.

Plus - what would be the point? Your organization sends some sort of Taliban 007 to execute attack, funds what must have been very costly in both skill and money operation, and... It doesn't brag about its success? No prepared propaganda clips hitting Youtube? Why?

Also, if he was some sort of IED expert capable of doing all this, wouldn't he have explosive material traces all over himself? I was under impression USA invested a lot into airport detectors. Is that incorrect?

[Broomstick]

While it might be easier for tourist to blend in there than in other places in the USA, I still don't see how a tourist, even explosives expert, would have easy time procuring materials and infrastructure needed to build multiple bombs on a short stay, distribute them, and go away unnoticed, all without attracting attention of multiple US home defence agencies trying to find such people.

IF it was a foreign national/agent (strictly hypothetical) it would more likely be someone on a student visa, such as the 9/11 hijackers used, than a tourist visa. It's been demonstrated that yes, an agent on a student visa mostly certainly could plan and carry out a successful mass-injury attack on US soil.

There are too many things that can go wrong here, while US citizen has time, currency, customs, papers and all the other things that mitigate it to huge extent.

Only up to a point - the US is huge in extent and the security net is far from perfect.

Plus - what would be the point? Your organization sends some sort of Taliban 007 to execute attack, funds what must have been very costly in both skill and money operation, and... It doesn't brag about its success? No prepared propaganda clips hitting Youtube? Why?

Damifino. To answer that we'd have to know the motivations behind the attack and right now we just don't.

Also, if he was some sort of IED expert capable of doing all this, wouldn't he have explosive material traces all over himself? I was under impression USA invested a lot into airport detectors. Is that incorrect?

There are detectors at airports but why do you assume a perpetrator would flee by airplane? Or by any public transit? Just rent a freakin' car and drive out of town, there's an entire continent to get lost in. Private citizen in a private vehicle not driving in an attention-getting manner can easily go all over the US without a second glance, without being searched or tested for anything. Lay low until explosive residues fade/are washed away/whatever then go home.

I assume if I can figure that out so can both the Bad Guys and the FBI.

[Simon_Jester]

Although I suspect Duchess is right about most of the amputations coming from chunks of the garbage can the bomb was in; getting hit with small-diameter bits of shrapnel isn't likely to take anyone's leg off.

"Small diameter" shrapnel sure can take your leg off - if there's enough of them. Ever see what a shot gun can do to something?

I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking very clearly.

Insofar as I was thinking, I was thinking about people who were injured from far outside the blast effects, which was mentioned in those earlier posts. From far away, I'd imagine that getting your leg chopped off by a one square foot chunk of flying garbage can would be more of a risk than having enough BB's hit you to destroy the limb.

2 bombs is "well coordinated"? Maybe if they were across town from each other.

Apparently there were actually up to four bombs but only two went off.

Lone bomber incidents don't happen very often. Each time one does, we see something new. For example, I don't remember any cases of a lone terrorist trying to use a bomb to distract first responders from a mass shooting... until 2011, when it happened in Norway.

Even if there were four or six bombs instead of just two, it wouldn't prove much. This could still easily be another lone bomber, who's just following a somewhat unfamiliar profile by having the patience to make four bombs instead of one or two.

I'm going to try and stay out of the profiling game entirely; I don't trust myself that far.

I mean case in point, people are throwing around "advances in limb replacement" as if it's a magic cure for people who just had their lives changed by the loss of a limb. I don't think telling victims about how awesome artificial legs are these days is going to mean much to them right now.

War and violence is horrible, the worst casualties aren't just the dead.

Were they throwing it around as a magic cure? Or as a "at least this isn't as bad as it could possibly be?" Would it be better if the upper limit of prosthetic technology was Krukenberg hands and peglegs?

I also want to slap Americans who go "yay! limb replacement!" because the idiots clearly haven't considered the cost and the way the health insurance companies are going to try to dodge paying for it. It would really suck to know the technology is out there but not be able to access it because you simply don't have the money or insurance coverage for it.

I fully agree.

[adds argument #482 to list of reasons to have universal health care in developed nations]

[EnterpriseSovereign]

The news is saying the bombs were in pressure cookers and packed with ball bearings.

[Zadius]

I'm fairly certain this was done by foreign terrorists- I suspect al-Qaida. Why?

1) Domestic terrorist groups have select targets, e.g., white supremists will attack places where non-whites gather, like churches in predominantly black neighborhoods, or synagogues; Christian fundamentalists will attack people and places where specific sins are committed, like abortion clinics; militia and survivalists specifically attack GOVERNMENT institutions. The Boston Marathon seems too diverse a target- people of different races, religions, and sexual orientation, all gathered together and causing great difficulty in picking out the people a domestic terrorist would want to kill, from those he would NOT. In contrast, the standard "Death to America!" type doesn't discriminate targets.

Except, foreign terrorists do it for publicity. To kick the "great Satan" for real or imaginary slights. Had it been such a group, why no one claimed responsibility by now or bragged how hard they struck the infidels? It makes no sense...

It's too soon to wonder why nobody has taken credit. If it is a foreign group, they may still be waiting for the perpetrator(s) to safety escape the country (or be caught) before they brag publicly.

[Sea Skimmer]

Also, if he was some sort of IED expert capable of doing all this, wouldn't he have explosive material traces all over himself? I was under impression USA invested a lot into airport detectors. Is that incorrect?

If he was some sort of expert he would not have traces all over himself, he might have none at all, but expert is hardly what I'd expect to call someone who resorted to blackpowder for bomb making. An expert could have made something much more powerful. If they get any suspects though, it'd be very hard to avoid contaminating where ever the bomb was made.

As for airport detectors, lots of stuff was bought to find physical objects on people. Exactly one reliable standoff explosive residue detector exists in the world, a trained dog, and that has problems. Bomb sniffing dogs are only trained on specific explosives in the first place, they also can only work 20-30 minutes at a time before the dog gets too bored to be useful and needs to rest or play less taxing games. The bomb sniffing dogs Amtrack constantly has around in the train station I use are almost always resting when I walk by.

This can't be helped much...except with one breed of weird Russian jackal-dog hybrid that was produced by the unlimited power of Soviet super science that is much more aggressive about its job. However this super animal is very hard to breed and only used by Aeroflot, and even then only IIRC at Sheremetyevo airport, which had a planted bomb attack kill dozens of people in one of its waiting areas in 2011 anyway. Neat animals in any event, some TV program exists on them I saw years ago.

Edit: wiki suggests the animal in question is called a Sulimov Dog.

[Meest]

Nominate the wheelchair guy as something, not sure if BAMF is appropriate but he was compressing his own leg in the initial chaos by himself. No idea how he was conscious but these people need to be applauded along with any first responders professional or otherwise, they gave a lot of these people a chance and prevented even more amputations. Wish that sort of thing would be covered more, just like information about giving blood should be given out, it should be encouraged that people get basic CPR and aid training.

[Revan119]

In a sliver of a silver lining the bomber or bombers could not have picked a "better" time to detonate a device. Boston EMS and private ambos, whom I work for, as well as various police agencies and the area hospitals already treat the Marathon as a Mass Casualty Incident drill and have all of their toys and gadgets out. Disaster teams like MA-1 DMAT were already deployed on scene before the incident. Already having mobile command centers, liaison teams and a glut of transport and law enforcement resources eased the chaos of the situation. My ambulance was on scene at the staging area along with 47 other ambulances not counting Boston EMS and mutual aid resources already on the scene within 30 minutes of the explosion.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The Senate is being evacuated due to a suspicious package.

[ZGundam]

CNN is reporting that investigators believe they have identified a suspect. No more info yet.