Boston Terror Attacks

[The Xeelee]

Considering the suspects were planning more attacks the steps they took was reasonable.

[Kamakazie Sith]

http://www.storyleak.com/video-shows-ho ... voluntary/

Context may be lacking without being able to hear all involved parties, but they're right in saying that doesn't look very voluntary.

Yeah, I agree. It looks very bad. I understand the need for a SWAT team but I would not support involuntary searches. The only exemption, that I am aware of, is hot pursuit but you pretty much have to see the suspect run into a house in order to go in without the permission of the owner.

There is also this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gT0Ymrsptg

It seems to be less intense. Those exiting aren't being made to put their hands on their head. I wonder what the difference is?

[Kamakazie Sith]

The above just serves to remind people who really won the War on Terror. Bin Laden routinely stated his goals were to sink America's values by increasing public paranoia and bloodlust for vengeance. While I don't doubt this was little more than a means to an end for other goals how sad is it that the US can't even win against a dead man?

If those are indeed involuntary searches conducted without a warrant then I agree with you. I hope that is not the case.

The real culprit here is Americans themselves. It's tempting for them to blame the government or blame foreigners, but the reality is the state is only doing what they want it to do. Which is bring them the blood of wanted criminals. Their is just one problem, that's not justice, it's vengeance.

Perhaps for Bin Laden that is true. However, one suspect is still alive. He could have easily been killed by the police and nobody would have been wise to it. This fact should not be swept aside.

The police or Americans? This is a serious question. Are the police simply the most convenient scapegoat for what is ultimately a serious cultural problem? Would they have searched as many houses as invasively as they had if the public clamor for finding these guys wasn't so loud?

Is the clamor to find two suspects believed to have killed three people and wounded hundreds more in a bombing that unreasonable? I guess it could be. Do we have a reaction from another country that handled a terrorist attack better?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Yes, how willing were home owners when the police showed up with guns drawn. There was no fucking choice for almost every home owner.

That's a good question. When asking for consent to search a home the consent must be given freely and without coercion. In the video that Ando link it certainly does not look like they were asked for permission.

Home to home searches on a block for a suspect? Could be reasonable. Home to home searches on thousands of homes to find a single suspect? Massively unreasonable. Unless the guy had a backpack nuke or something.

The video I posted shows that not every house search was conducted in that manner. Maybe these homes were close to where the suspect ditched the car or the police had some other reason for being more aggressive. The public deserves and explanation though and the family in that home should be interviewed.

I hope those searches get challenged and go to court. The police need to be reigned in.

Agreed, assuming the searches conducted in that forceful manner were done without consent and the police did not have a reason to be so forceful.

Another reason why might be that they were concerned that he might have fled to sympathizers, friends, or family. That certainly didn't look like the case with that family in the first video though.

[Grumman]

OK, interesting exemption.

It is consistent with case law. Basically, civil rights are very important but life is more important than those rights.

That is a red herring. Without this exception you can still interrogate him to find where the ticking time bomb is without reading him his rights. You can still go find the bomb and disarm it after he tells you. The only thing you can't do is use this interrogation as evidence in court.

[Simon_Jester]

Also, note that we're talking about his 'right' to be reminded of his rights, not the rights themselves. He still has a right to not say anything, no one's allowed to start beating or threatening him to get information about ticking bombs. But when there's an emergency and an immediate, probably threat to life and limb, I think the police can be justified in not explicitly reminding him of that fact, especially if they have no intention of later using his statements against him at trial.

[PeZook]

Also, Shep pointed it out on Facebook: a competent lawyer could easily poison all of his statements that WOULD be available as evidence in court, by simply saying he was not competent to comprehend (much less use) his Miranda rights because, you know, he was barely even alive at the time of arrest. And not unreasonably so: after all, the entire purpose of Miranda is to ensure the suspect has been informed of his rights, knows what they are and can, if he wants to, waive them.

Had he been Mirandized while hopped up on painkillers it would be a mockery of the entire thing.

[weemadando]

A picture that Anonymous News retweeted earlier:


Yeah, that's reassuring for the public.

[Broomstick]

For some people that might be. There are people who find armed patrols up and down the street reassuring that the government is "doing something" about the problem. There are others that would shit their pants at the sight.

Look, when the National Guard or the Coast Guard or even the local sheriff deputies are gathered in a large group for utterly peaceful purposes you have men (and women) in uniforms with guns. I don't find that an inherently scary thing.

Admittedly I'm taking a Devil's Advocate position here but you can't just throw up a picture of armed people walking down a street and scream "OPPRESSION!" How do the people actually there view the situation? Until we ask them anything else is speculation. That, and I have to ask if the people posting and reposting these pictures have an agenda of their own? Are they cherry-picking the most damning photos taken during the day?

[PeZook]

Hummvees with gun shields and MRAPs are ending up a lot in police hands in America, it seems. Probably because so many were bought for Iraq and they can be gotten by many departments for teh cheap nowadays, but they look scary and intimidating because they're first and foremost military vehicles.

[LaCroix]

I don't have any problem with armed patrols, nor armored vehicles, especially while hunting down a bomber on the run, but, you know, aiming an automatic gun (the guy in the Hummvee) at someone who's taking a picture does seem a wee bit excessive to me...

[JLTucker]

For some people that might be. There are people who find armed patrols up and down the street reassuring that the government is "doing something" about the problem. There are others that would shit their pants at the sight.

Look, when the National Guard or the Coast Guard or even the local sheriff deputies are gathered in a large group for utterly peaceful purposes you have men (and women) in uniforms with guns. I don't find that an inherently scary thing.

Admittedly I'm taking a Devil's Advocate position here but you can't just throw up a picture of armed people walking down a street and scream "OPPRESSION!" How do the people actually there view the situation? Until we ask them anything else is speculation. That, and I have to ask if the people posting and reposting these pictures have an agenda of their own? Are they cherry-picking the most damning photos taken during the day?

I'd certainly be upset if some motherfucker was pointing his gun at me while I stood at the window.

Are you ever not a fucking idiot?

[Broomstick]

I don't think those are police though, police don't usually wear camo. National Guard wear cammo. The guys in cammo are probably National Guard, that is, the Massachusetts state militia. The guys in solid color are most likely the police or sheriff. In other words, the military vehicles are being used by trained military who are assisting the police.

Part of the confusion is, I think, a lack of understanding of how different agencies have different jurisdictions and/or are working to assist each other. Another part of the confusion is that this is not new to the war on terror. This is NOT an artifact of the 20th Century. During the 1960's with the riots and the like we had National Guards and even tanks rolling through US cities. The world didn't end and we didn't wind up a totalitarian police state. The 1960's were 40-50 years ago, though, so it's understandable some of the older people have forgotten that and certainly the younger people won't remember it.

I hasten to add that I think these questions should be asked and the events of the week, including the actions of the authorities, should be thoroughly reviewed. Any wrong doing should be addressed. While there were certainly a lot of scary things going on I do find it impressive that they solved the mystery in under a week and actually managed to capture one of the suspects alive, albeit severely injured. This wasn't a case of the authorities spraying bullets willy-nilly and going RAR! KILL!

[AniThyng]

You sure State Police don't wear cammo?

http://media.theweek.com/img/dir_0095/4 ... he.jpg?173

[PeZook]

I've seen SWAT teams and ATF agents wearing camo before. It's a matter of what the particular department decided to buy for its guys. Some small town cops even buy their own gear and with lots of them being veterans they seem to prefer camo, contributing to the militarized police image.

Not that it's necessarily inappropriate when chasing a heavily armed and possibly military trained psycho, mind you.

I hasten to add that I think these questions should be asked and the events of the week, including the actions of the authorities, should be thoroughly reviewed. Any wrong doing should be addressed. While there were certainly a lot of scary things going on I do find it impressive that they solved the mystery in under a week and actually managed to capture one of the suspects alive, albeit severely injured. This wasn't a case of the authorities spraying bullets willy-nilly and going RAR! KILL!

American paranoia about rights and tyranny aside, the police can do a lot by simply apologizing and restituting any damage without obstructionism, which is the method Polish police used to better their image after a series of serious mistakes, blunders et al in the 1990s. People don't really seem to mind when their grievances are properly addressed.

[Broomstick]

I'd certainly be upset if some motherfucker was pointing his gun at me while I stood at the window.

Maybe the "motherfucker with a gun" was concerned that someone was pointing a gun at him from a window? Or maybe the guys going down the street looking for an armed and dangerous fugitive shouldn't look in windows or at other people, right?

Are you ever not a fucking idiot?

Do you know what the phrase "Devil's Advocate" means? Do you ever NOT have a kneejerk reaction? Do you ever stop and consider that every picture has a context and that anyone posting anything might have an agenda or ulterior motives? Do you know how to critically examine the information you see on the internet?

[Broomstick]

You sure State Police don't wear cammo?

I did say "usually".

No, actually, in real life I've never seen state police wear cammo. Could be a matter of regional differences and/or changing practice.

[PeZook]

I'd certainly be upset if some motherfucker was pointing his gun at me while I stood at the window.

Maybe the "motherfucker with a gun" was concerned that someone was pointing a gun at him from a window? Or maybe the guys going down the street looking for an armed and dangerous fugitive shouldn't look in windows or at other people, right?

He has optics on his rifle ; He was probably just looking through them to check out the person peeking out of the window. There's an added bonus that he could shoot if it turned out that yes it WAS the suspect preparing to hand grenade him in the face.

Also BTW that Hummvee is even marked as "Military Police", so the camo guys are almost certainly National Guard.

[JLTucker]

Are you ever not a fucking idiot?

Do you know what the phrase "Devil's Advocate" means? Do you ever NOT have a kneejerk reaction? Do you ever stop and consider that every picture has a context and that anyone posting anything might have an agenda or ulterior motives? Do you know how to critically examine the information you see on the internet?

I'm well aware of what a devil's advocate is. The problem is that you can't even do that correctly, as PeZook just pointed out.

[AniThyng]

I'd certainly be upset if some motherfucker was pointing his gun at me while I stood at the window.

Maybe the "motherfucker with a gun" was concerned that someone was pointing a gun at him from a window? Or maybe the guys going down the street looking for an armed and dangerous fugitive shouldn't look in windows or at other people, right?

He has optics on his rifle ; He was probably just looking through them to check out the person peeking out of the window. There's an added bonus that he could shoot if it turned out that yes it WAS the suspect preparing to hand grenade him in the face.

Also BTW that Hummvee is even marked as "Military Police", so the camo guys are almost certainly National Guard.

Reddit thread seems to think the MP Humvee is a loaner from the NG, but the camo guys and the humvee gunner are state police and/or SWAT, like the ones in the photo I linked.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Military/comments/1csi62/
.

[Crazedwraith]

Take with a pinch of salt but there are reports the suspect is awake and answering questions via writing;

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/boston-bombs-s ... 55048.html

..The surviving Boston marathon bomb suspect is beginning to respond to questions from investigators, reports say.

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev remains in a critical but stable condition at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Centre, where some of the 180 people wounded in the blasts are also being treated.

The 19-year-old is said to have a wound to his throat - reportedly caused by a gunshot through his mouth that exited the back of his neck - which prevents him from speaking.

But major US news networks say he is responding to questions in writing.

He is under armed guard in hospital and federal prosecutors are preparing to file criminal charges against him.

Dzhokhar is also reported to have been shot in the leg during a shootout with law enforcement the night before his arrest.

His older brother and fellow suspect Tamerlan, 26, died in that gunfight.

A lawyer for Tamerlan's wife, Katherine Russell Tsarnaev, said US authorities have also asked to speak with his client.

Amato DeLuca said Mrs Russell Tsarnaev did not suspect her husband of anything, and nothing seemed amiss after the bombings.

After Tamerlan was killed early on Friday, Dzhokhar escaped, triggering an hours-long manhunt that shut down Boston.

It ended with the teenager's capture in a boat parked in a backyard late on Friday night.

It has also emerged police chiefs believe the Tsarnaev brothers were planning further attacks.

Commissioner Ed Davis said officers found a large stockpile of weapons and more than 250 rounds of ammunition at the scene of the earlier gun battle.

"They had IEDS," he said, referring to improvised explosives devices. "They had homemade hand grenades that they were throwing at the officers.

"The scene was loaded with unexploded improvised explosive devices that actually we had to point out to the arriving officers and clear the area."

He said one IED was found in a Mercedes the brothers had abandoned. "This was as dangerous as it gets in urban policing," Commissioner Davis said.

The city's residents have been asked to observe a moment of silence at 2:50pm today, exactly a week after the first of two bombs went off within seconds of each other near the marathon finish line.

A private funeral was also set to take place later for Krystle Campbell, a 29-year-old restaurant worker who was among the dead.

A memorial service will be held at Boston University for another victim, Lu Lingzi, 23, a graduate student from China. The youngest person to die was eight-year-old Martin Richard.

Mr Davis said federal authorities were trying to track down how and where the two suspects obtained the firearms and explosive devices.

The two were ethnic Chechens who had been living in the United States for a decade.

Dzhokhar became a US citizen in 2012, while his older brother's application was reportedly held up.

Tamerlan began posting militant videos on social media sites in recent years, and travelled to Dagestan, which borders Chechnya, in 2012. Both Russian regions host separatist rebel groups.

The brothers' social media pages appeared to express sympathy with the struggle in Chechnya, which has been ravaged by two wars since 1994 between Russia and increasingly Islamist-leaning separatist rebels.

Three people died and more than 180 others were injured in the twin blasts at the marathon, the worst bombing to take place in the US since 9/11.

The Boston Red Sox, Major League Baseball and several affiliated organisations have contributed more than £400,000 to One Fund Boston, established to help people most affected by the blasts last Monday.

[2000AD]

Quick tangent regarding those searches:

If the police had forced their way into a house to search for the suspect and found something else illegal, like say some drug packages or something, would that be admissable in court? Presumably they didn't have a warrant to search each and every building.

[Dr. Trainwreck]

Quick tangent regarding those searches:

If the police had forced their way into a house to search for the suspect and found something else illegal, like say some drug packages or something, would that be admissable in court? Presumably they didn't have a warrant to search each and every building.

Traffic cops can already arrest you if they find, say, drugs in your car at a regular stop, and they can make the charges stick. I don't think something prevents them from doing this.

[Highlord Laan]

A picture that Anonymous News retweeted earlier:
snip

Yeah, that's reassuring for the public.

The man on top of the Humvee needs a stern talking to.

[Sea Skimmer]

Hummvees with gun shields and MRAPs are ending up a lot in police hands in America, it seems. Probably because so many were bought for Iraq and they can be gotten by many departments for teh cheap nowadays, but they look scary and intimidating because they're first and foremost military vehicles.

Well, gunshields are nothing new as most older APC designs had the roof hatches fold up to work as a gunshield; reality is most of the APCs already owned by police around the US were old as hell, and the 1960s era armor specs just weren't very good, such as the once very common Cadillac Gage Ranger. Many of the new MRAP style vehicles are indeed DoD surplus, but some are new bought too and not so tall and clumsy. Armored Hummves aren't owned by police, that I've ever seen anyway, because they are too small to hold a SWAT team or evacuate civilians in useful numbers. The one in that picture is borrowed military. You can find many pictures of armored and unarmored ones deployed around Boston. Seemingly most if not all deployed National Guard MP troops were assigned to static duties, like watching subways, and often in an unarmed role, so it isn't surprising that at least one vehicle was passed on to local police who were allowed to go out searching. Only EOD guys seem to have routinely gone out with police, and only then when actual suspected devices were found.

On the other hand US police use of M113s seems to have faded somewhat; a bunch of those existed for a while as milsurplus from the early 1980s.
http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/i ... lle_lg.jpg

The man on top of the Humvee needs a stern talking to.

For what exactly? Pointing his weapon at a possible ambush, as police do all the fucking endless time in the US even when stopping a car for a busted taillight? That's a SWAT team searching door to door for a terrorist with unknown small arms and bombs powerful enough to wipe out that whole team. Of course they are going to be on guard, they damn well should be for once.