Yesterday's Enterprise: The Federation-Klingon War

[Stark]

Sax and Disco! :V

It'd be a lol if the prophets opened the wormhole to let their sweet pal Disco get away from teh bad Klingbons, and then they all got butched and enslaved by the Dominion.

THANKS GHOST TIME PEEPS!

[tezunegari]

Because it was the Bjarons that discovered the worm hole not the Federation. The Bajoran leaders were using it to levy membership into the Federation.

Um, no. It was Sisko and Dax who found the wormhole in DS9s pilot episode Emissary.
(Well, after that bajoran poet who became the Emissary for a short time until they asked the Gods who the real one is and his encounter with the wormhole was retconned removed from the timeline)

Considering that the one to find the wormhole was pretty much created by the wormhole spirits (Siskos biological mother was controlled by one and left the Siskos afterwards when the unholy possession had ended... think a moment about the implications here)

So it could be possible that a wormhole alien takes control of someone else and the bajoran space jesus is a klingon in this timeline.

That might require for them to fight the Cardassians first but if these wormhole aliens can take over anyone they might just start a war for their plan to come together...

If they find the wormhole because the honorable warrior Sis'ko from the house of Wank was send to pacify the unruly Bajorans they would fortify the system like their command post at Ty'Gokor (DS9 Apocalypse Rising) with a heavily armed station, sensors to detect cloaked ships and a defense fleet.

edit:
Damnit... ninjaed twice.

[Lord MJ]

Wish there was some canon word on how large the Federation is geospatially compared to the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians.

It would seem to me that the Federation with 150 member worlds and an undetermined number of other planets under it's control would be significantly larger. But the size of their fleet relative to the size of their space being much smaller than the other powers.

Wondering if the Klingons would even have the capability to outright conquer and annex all of those planets if they won the war.

More than likely they would take their pick of the choice worlds. And leave the rest of the Federation intact (more or less)

Or they go all Orbital Bombardment and wipe out the Federation.

Or they impose that the Federation worlds must separate and be prohibited from ever uniting under a single government again.

Or maybe the Klingon's don't annex many worlds at all, but since the Klingon fleet would have free reign to move throughout Federation space at will, the Klingons can effectively dominate the Federation planets without occupying them outright.

[Lord MJ]

It would also seem to me that the Federation does not understand the concept of Total War very well.

Nobody seemed to think "Ok, we have 150 worlds with populations in the hundreds of millions to billions and many more worlds filled with natural resources. We should have shipyards and fabrication plants and use the populations of those worlds to build a large military force."

It would seem that if the Federation actually used all the resources at their disposal the Klingons would not be able to touch them. It's impossible to imagine that the Fed leadership didn't think about this as the situation got more desperate, but probably by the time they did, it was already too late. The Klingons have done their damage, and building up a war machine takes time and resources that are no longer available after years of fighting.

[Stark]

That's a long-winded way of saying 'the Federation has more resources than the Klingons because I say so, and they are dumb for not doing what I say because I say so'. In context, didn't the Khitomer massacre appear after decades of relative peace and at the beginning of increasing tensions? Yeah, wow, why Starfleet isn't spamming out doom warships is a huge fucking mystery.

I don't know why people struggle with the idea that the Klingons just beat the Federation in battle. We've seen Federation battle tactics, and they suck shit. If they lost too much in the initial attack to effectively recover, that's not even surprising. Why would they waste their time protecting the huge swathes of 15,000 person colonies that couldn't contribute to the war in a reasonable timeframe? Without Romulan support from across the border they'd be doomed, which is probably why the Klingons are applying low pressure to get a formal surrender rather than seizing what they can from the impotent Federation (and thus encouraging the Romulans to do so as well).

[Batman]

I'm not entirely sure what the Khitomer massacre has to do with anything, that was the one where Worf's parents were killed, the allegedly history turning point was Narendra III.
As for the Federation battle tactics sucking shit, I don't see how the Klingons were doing any better. Both sides were mostly using (for want of a better word) tactics that'd drive any halfway decent real world tactician to drink.

I do have to agree about the Feds having more resources because of, um, because. We know from TUC that they were at least considering seriously scaling down the military side of Starfleet (something TNG seems to bear out). Contrast this with pretty much every TNG Klingon ship being a vessel of war. Even if the Feds did have more resources (for to my knowledge there is no solid information either way) the Klingons concentrating on combat ships while the Feds built their jack-of-all-trades ships might have been enough to turn the tide early in the war, and once the Klingons have the upper hand, the Fed resource advantage (if it exists to begin with) may begin to evaporate rather quickly.

[Stark]

Lol. There goes my Star Trek trivia :v.

And dude, they were scaling down Starfleet because the whole Cold War thing was a fiction created by the military for no real reason. This might be why decades later Starfleet can't compete with the Klingons directly, especially if they never re-examined their faulty intelligence regarding the significance of the Praxis explosion. Doubly so since Federation expansion is probably a disability for them before they realise that it isn't a limited war.

And say what you want, the Klingon blob clearly defeated the Federation blob and their roving cruiser groups crushed the Enterprises. The Federation warmongers got the war they always wanted, and they lost.

[Lord MJ]

Regarding Federation resources, we really have 3 options.

1. The Federation has vastly greater resources than the Klingons, utilized them for total war, but got steamrolled anyway.
2. The Federation has greater resources but failed to utilize them in time.
3. The Klingons had equal or greater resources.

Considering that in the Trek canon we have never seen the Klingons have anywhere close to 150 fully populated and developed worlds, in fact we've only seen one conquered homeworld (Krios in TNG). It would seem more likely that the Klingon empire has the Klingon homeworld, and dozens possibly hundreds of colonies. They did have a head start over humans in interstellar development. But the Vulcans and Andorians had the same head start.

Most likely even during the TOS days the Federation maintained a fleet large enough to counter the major powers, but one not relative in size to it's population.

This in contrast to a nation like say, the Dominion, that presumably has a similar number of homeworlds under it's rule as the Federation, but the Dominion fully exploits the resources of it's worlds, allowing the Dominion's GQ forces to dwarf the combined power of the Federation, Romulans, and Klingons.

[Lord MJ]

Another thing about tactics. If the Enterprise was the Defiant, then how they conducted the battle would make sense. But given that the Enterprise was a battleship, there really is no excuse for the Enterprise crew only firing when the Captain says "FIRE". They have multiple phaser banks and torpedoes, there are three enemy battlecruisers attacking. Just point and shoot... In fact once would think that a war galaxy would have gun crews for each phaser bank and torpedo launcher instead of just Riker and his weapons console.

[Jedipilot24]

Another thing about tactics. If the Enterprise was the Defiant, then how they conducted the battle would make sense. But given that the Enterprise was a battleship, there really is no excuse for the Enterprise crew only firing when the Captain says "FIRE". They have multiple phaser banks and torpedoes, there are three enemy battlecruisers attacking. Just point and shoot... In fact once would think that a war galaxy would have gun crews for each phaser bank and torpedo launcher instead of just Riker and his weapons console.

The TOS Enterprise actually did have lower deck gun crews, as seen in 'Balance of Terror'. By TNG Starfleet must have automated everything to cut costs, probably in reaction to having their budget slashed by the peaceniks.
And the reason why the computer panels randomly explode? They were built by the lowest bidder, who cut corners and then covered it up by greasing a few palms.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Metahive]

The TOS Enterprise actually did have lower deck gun crews, as seen in 'Balance of Terror'. By TNG Starfleet must have automated everything to cut costs, probably in reaction to having their budget slashed by the peaceniks.
And the reason why the computer panels randomly explode? They were built by the lowest bidder, who cut corners and then covered it up by greasing a few palms.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Yeah, well it was only in Balance of Terror that the Enterprise had weapons handled from somewhere else than the bridge and that only because that particular episode was aping "The Enemy Below", a WW2 submarine movie.

But hey, everybody knows that bashing ST (as well as spouting lots of boring SW EU trivia) is the fastest way to get popular on this board, right? Right!

[Jedipilot24]

The TOS Enterprise actually did have lower deck gun crews, as seen in 'Balance of Terror'. By TNG Starfleet must have automated everything to cut costs, probably in reaction to having their budget slashed by the peaceniks.
And the reason why the computer panels randomly explode? They were built by the lowest bidder, who cut corners and then covered it up by greasing a few palms.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Yeah, well it was only in Balance of Terror that the Enterprise had weapons handled from somewhere else than the bridge and that only because that particular episode was aping "The Enemy Below", a WW2 submarine movie.

But hey, everybody knows that bashing ST (as well as spouting lots of boring SW EU trivia) is the fastest way to get popular on this board, right? Right!

I wasn't bashing ST, I was making a general comment about the nature of warfare in both fiction and RL--namely that it tends to get fought with crap made by the lowest bidder because of the rampant corruption that always accompanies the procurement process. The exploding computer panels in ST are just one example.

[Lord Revan]

Just a quick question since IIRC Turret crews have little to no control over what they're suppose to shoot (in real life that is) what difference having one would really make, you'd still have the order to fire coming from the captain (or chief tactical officer).

[Metahive]

I wasn't bashing ST, I was making a general comment about the nature of warfare in both fiction and RL--namely that it tends to get fought with crap made by the lowest bidder because of the rampant corruption that always accompanies the procurement process. The exploding computer panels in ST are just one example.

So no word on you making factually wrong statements about weapon procedures in TOS? No word on why you bashed "peaceniks" for ruining TNG's Starfleet? Nope, just making more of an ass of yourself by going that all militaries must suck due to corruption, something that you surely researched very well in the ten or so minutes you spend each day not shoving a Star Destroyer miniature up your ass.

First rule of holes, idiot.

[Jedipilot24]

I wasn't bashing ST, I was making a general comment about the nature of warfare in both fiction and RL--namely that it tends to get fought with crap made by the lowest bidder because of the rampant corruption that always accompanies the procurement process. The exploding computer panels in ST are just one example.

So no word on you making factually wrong statements about weapon procedures in TOS? No word on why you bashed "peaceniks" for ruining TNG's Starfleet? Nope, just making more of an ass of yourself by going that all militaries must suck due to corruption, something that you surely researched very well in the ten or so minutes you spend each day not shoving a Star Destroyer miniature up your ass.

First rule of holes, idiot.

I don't recall making any false statements about TOS weapons procedures. I said that the Enterprise had a lower deck gun crew, which is born out by the on-screen evidence of 'Balance of Terror'. The fact that it only appears in that one episode doesn't change the fact that it did appear. Period.
During the briefing in "The Undiscovered Country" several Starfleet officers worry that the Khitomer treaty will lead to a downsizing of the fleet. In BBOW Starfleet could only assemble 40 starships on short notice and in Redemption Part II they could only assemble 23 and to get even that much meant grabbing several ships that weren't even finished yet. Contrast this with Admiral Cartwright's confident assertion 100 years ago that they could defeat the Klingons if it came to war and it's clear that Starfleet was indeed downsized in the intervening years and hadn't yet been built back up to the numbers we see in the Dominion War.

I didn't say that all militaries suck due to corruption, I said that the procurement process for military equipment is tainted by corruption, which leads to the equipment being built by the lowest bidder. If you actually spent some time looking at, for example, the DoD portion of the budget you would have seen plenty of evidence of that.
Or you could, you know, talk to someone with military experience. And before you go off insulting me again, I should tell you that I have several veterans in my family so I do actually know what I'm talking about.

[Lord MJ]

During the briefing in "The Undiscovered Country" several Starfleet officers worry that the Khitomer treaty will lead to a downsizing of the fleet. In BBOW Starfleet could only assemble 40 starships on short notice and in Redemption Part II they could only assemble 23 and to get even that much meant grabbing several ships that weren't even finished yet. Contrast this with Admiral Cartwright's confident assertion 100 years ago that they could defeat the Klingons if it came to war and it's clear that Starfleet was indeed downsized in the intervening years and hadn't yet been built back up to the numbers we see in the Dominion War.

What evidence is there that the TOS/TUC Feds could assemble a fleet of more than 40 ships on short notice?

[Batman]

Um-the size of the fleets they managed to assemble at Wolf 359 and in Redemption Pt II says exactly dick about their fleet size thanks to the limits of Warp speed as on both occasions they were on a pretty short time limit so even if Starfleet had millions of ships, it's still entirely possible that no more were available in time to matter.
And yeah-a guy who obviously seriously wants a war with the Klingons is naturally to be trusted to have an impartial view on their chances to win it.

[spaceviking]

I'm going to agree with not Batman.

The borg were a unique threat. The Federation generally has the fastest ships in its area, and before the borg all of it enemies were close enough for a retaliatory strike. The Federation fleet was probably laied out based on the assumption that if an enemy made a B-line for earth the Fleet could beat them there.

[Batman]

I resent the not Batman comment, you know.
And yeah, that's a sane way to design and deplay your fleet-who cares if they blow up the rest of the Federation as long as we can keep Earth save? I'm sure the other members of the UFP will totally understand that and absolutely not request that, Um, since we're in the UFP, shouldn't you protect us too or something?

[spaceviking]

Um, that is why they are not just at earth. My assumption is that most of the fleet is set-up to defend the outer worlds, and until the borg they were under the belief that these fleets would be able to intercept any enemy fleet that just went straight for the core worlds.

I am not disagreeing with you.

[Andras]

re Praxis, Yesterday's Enterprise aired the year before TUC was filmed, was the destruction of Praxis (as the main enegry production facility of the Empire) ever mentioned prior to TUC?

If not there may be an additional PoD in that Praxis did not blow up (for what ever reason) in the timeline E-C visited leading to a stronger Klingon Empire.

[Stark]

Or the estimates of the significance of the damage to the empire were simply wrong/over-optimistic/misinformed.

[TheHammer]

What we do know is that the praxis moon explosion happened about 50 years before. This was supposed to cripple the Klingons if they did not reduce their military expenses. Now a lot could happen in that time, but going from having 20 years of life to winning a war of attrition is impressive. I am thinking the Klingons must have made alliances. Maybe without the Enterprise C building friendship between the Federation and the Klingons the Duras family had greater control, Romulan Economic support?

Or the estimates of the significance of the damage to the empire were simply wrong/over-optimistic/misinformed.

Praxis might never have exploded in this timeline...

[Stark]

If you want to add entities rather than roll with the extremely common 'initial BDA of explosion very optimistic' when it was never really demonstrated one way or the other, go for your life.

PS even in the TNG timeline I think it's pretty clear the disaster wasn't nearly as bad for the Empire as poor old Colonel West thought it was, at least outside the very short term.