It's LOYALTY DAY citizens. Have you been LOYAL today?

[Ahriman238]

Eh, I've heard there are parts of the country where this is a big deal, with parades and solemn oath-swearing ceremonies. In the Northeast, at least, it's something we notice only when the newspaper prints the proclaimation. That's it, it's sort of like the 'Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Clause' letter that gets reprinted every year. I never heard of it, until there was a stink about Bush doing it.

[Questor]

I'd think those "parts of the country" would be pretty small ones.

I've lived in a pretty broad range of the places available in the US, and I forget about it between these stupid political, partisan over reactions.

EDIT: my point is that celebrations could be highly regional, like Boston's patriot day. Out in SoCal, May Day immigration protests are the norm.

[Metahive]

Wow, that's the sort of thing I'd have expected some tinpot dictator from a third world shithole to pull, like say Saparmurat Niyasov, now deceased "father" of Turkmenistan, not a country that calls itself Land of the Free and Home of the Brave. O wait, I forgot, it's actually the same country that forces little children to pledge their allegiance to the national flag, never mind.

[AniThyng]

Wow, that's the sort of thing I'd have expected some tinpot dictator from a third world shithole to pull, like say Saparmurat Niyasov, now deceased "father" of Turkmenistan, not a country that calls itself Land of the Free and Home of the Brave. O wait, I forgot, it's actually the same country that forces little children to pledge their allegiance to the national flag, never mind.

Is schoolchildren pledging allegiance to the nation some sort of WIERD AND CRAZY american custom that no other 1st world country does? I can imagine Germany perhaps being that sort of place, but how about places like France and the UK?

I mean, singing the national anthem and reciting the national creed is a weekly/daily school assembly thing for me, but then again maybe to our enlightened friends we are only a few steps removed from being a tinpot dictatorship.

[Metahive]

Is schoolchildren pledging allegiance to the nation some sort of WIERD AND CRAZY american custom that no other 1st world country does? I can imagine Germany perhaps being that sort of place, but how about places like France and the UK?

I mean, singing the national anthem and reciting the national creed is a weekly/daily school assembly thing for me, but then again maybe to our enlightened friends we are only a few steps removed from being a tinpot dictatorship.

I don't care if the UK or France do it since they are not presenting themselves as Land of the Free and Home of the Brave and demand all sorts of special consideration based on that description.

[andrewgpaul]

schoolchildren pledging allegiance to the nation some sort of WIERD AND CRAZY american custom that no other 1st world country does? I can imagine Germany perhaps being that sort of place, but how about places like France and the UK?

The French might, but the UK? No (at least, not in Scotland in the 80s, when I went to school. Fuck knows, now). We had a weekly assembly in Primary school (1st - 7th grade) where we recited the Lord's Prayer, but that was it. In Secondary school? Nothing. St Andrew's Day wasn't even a holiday, IIRC.

[Imperial Overlord]

As a Canadian who spent two years in the American school system, the pledge of allegiance is fucking bizarre.

[Aaron MkII]

You didn't have school prayer, the anthem and god save the queen in your part of Canada?

Not that its the same thing but I remember all of the above, so I just see it as "they'll grow out of it"

[Imperial Overlord]

You didn't have school prayer, the anthem and god save the queen in your part of Canada?

Not that its the same thing but I remember all of the above, so I just see it as "they'll grow out of it"

We had the anthem and God Save the Queen on special occasions. No prayer and certainly no daily recital of the magic words that would prevent me from becoming a Communist Muslim Suicide Bomber Terrorist.

[Stark]

Is schoolchildren pledging allegiance to the nation some sort of WIERD AND CRAZY american custom that no other 1st world country does? I can imagine Germany perhaps being that sort of place, but how about places like France and the UK?

Its stuff like this that always gets a laugh from me. I mean, even using national anthems is bad/lame enough as a propaganda and conditioning tool, but actually making people literally say 'yes I have been bad please beat me' is just perverse... and so effective people honestly imagine its the same everywhere.

To be frank, what 'loyalty' to the state even means in a democratically elected country where the government is supposed to serve the will of the people is an interesting idea. I mean I know it means 'don't be a communist' and 'do as you're told' but what does it mean in the national myth? I certainly feel no loyalty to 'Australia' whatsoever, certainly not whatever the current elected leader is. Why should I?

[Flagg]

Man even when I was a kid I found the pledge creepy. I stopped even standing for it in highschool, though that was rebelliousness.

[Enigma]

You didn't have school prayer, the anthem and god save the queen in your part of Canada?

Not that its the same thing but I remember all of the above, so I just see it as "they'll grow out of it"

By 1989 the morning prayer (actually it was silent prayer) was dropped, at least in Ottawa. The anthem continued to be played at least until I graduated high school in '93, but I'm sure it is still being played.

As for the God save the Queen, never heard it in all the years in school.

[Ahriman238]

Its stuff like this that always gets a laugh from me. I mean, even using national anthems is bad/lame enough as a propaganda and conditioning tool, but actually making people literally say 'yes I have been bad please beat me' is just perverse... and so effective people honestly imagine its the same everywhere.

Sure I'll regret this, but where is anything like that said?

To be frank, what 'loyalty' to the state even means in a democratically elected country where the government is supposed to serve the will of the people is an interesting idea. I mean I know it means 'don't be a communist' and 'do as you're told' but what does it mean in the national myth? I certainly feel no loyalty to 'Australia' whatsoever, certainly not whatever the current elected leader is. Why should I?

The usual, don't engage in treason, don't secede because of slavery/gay marriage or whatever issue you disagree with the majority on. Render service where lawfully directed (taxes, the draft when it went on.) Try and believe that your nation is "the good guys" and call the government on it when they're not. Respect others freedoms and privacy.

Oh, and if you're batshit insane it also means never say bad things about the country or government ever. Unless a liberal/conservative is president.

Frankly the pledge is an artifact from (surprise, surprise) another Red Scare, the same one with teachers, entertainers and media being required to sign loyalty oaths. Though technically it was conceived during the first one.

[Metahive]

The usual, don't engage in treason, don't secede because of slavery/gay marriage or whatever issue you disagree with the majority on. Render service where lawfully directed (taxes, the draft when it went on.) Try and believe that your nation is "the good guys" and call the government on it when they're not. Respect others freedoms and privacy.

Don't forget "be a god-believing Christian and not some goddamned atheist". Kids wouldn't even understand half of those issues but they would understand the requirement to be conformist and submitting to peer-pressure. So excuse me when I don't buy the whole "teach the kids to be upstanding citizens" spiel. Funny and ironic for this to be happening in a country that, among other things, prides itself in encouraging "rugged individualism" in its inhabitants.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Try and believe that your nation is "the good guys" and call the government on it when they're not.

Why is that first half in there? It seems contrary to the second half, since actively trying to believe something is going to make it easier to come up with or buy excuses for when it's not or at least ambiguous.

[Ahriman238]

Try and believe that your nation is "the good guys" and call the government on it when they're not.

Why is that first half in there? It seems contrary to the second half, since actively trying to believe something is going to make it easier to come up with or buy excuses for when it's not or at least ambiguous.

Point. Perhaps "that you nations should be the good guys?"

[Metahive]

Teach them to be upstanding and moral human beings first. The state should inspire loyalty, not enforce it through BS childhood indoctrination anyway.

[Ralin]

As a Canadian who spent two years in the American school system, the pledge of allegiance is fucking bizarre.

Speaking as an American who went through most of the US school system, this makes it really weird when I hear about how controversial it is when, say, Japanese schools do the same with their anthem.

I know intellectually why it is and why it's a problem, but it's really hard to get away from that kneejerk "Well of course they do that" reaction.

[Simon_Jester]

You know, there might be a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" aspect to this. A lot of current problems with US social structure are coming from a narrow class of oligarchs willing to damage the long term social fabric of the country for their enrichment. With them, it's a crisis of insufficient patriotism, even at the same time that certain voter blocs are showing excessive patriotism and letting a wave of nationalist rhetoric blind them to problems with their own country.

[Coop D'etat]

You didn't have school prayer, the anthem and god save the queen in your part of Canada?

Not that its the same thing but I remember all of the above, so I just see it as "they'll grow out of it"

I had school prayer because I was in a Catholic school system but no anthem or god save the queen. The national symbols stuff only got carted out for Nov 11.

I also had to look up "God Save the Queen" because I had no idea what it sounded like.

So the concept of regularly doing a pledge of allegiance each morning sounds alien to me.

[Scrib]

You know, there might be a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" aspect to this. A lot of current problems with US social structure are coming from a narrow class of oligarchs willing to damage the long term social fabric of the country for their enrichment. With them, it's a crisis of insufficient patriotism, even at the same time that certain voter blocs are showing excessive patriotism and letting a wave of nationalist rhetoric blind them to problems with their own country.

Are selfish oligarchs just appearing?Forcing everyone to scream magic words every day is going to change anything, selfish people will always flow through the gaps and end up where they can make more money.I doubt removing the Pledge would significantly impact the levels of patriotism in the country.

Perhaps- and this is just a question- a government that restrains and punishes said risk takers would be the more effective tool when it comes to avoiding such problems?

[Metahive]

Simon, those selfish oligarchs most probably think of themselves as good patriots because they can cloth themselves in all the paraphernalia of a flag-waving, real American, like flag-lapel pins, support-the-troops ribbons and the like already. Repeating some solemn yet ultimately vapid mantra every day just adds to the superficiality. Patriotism isn't the problem, it's elitist hybris.

[Stark]

Speaking as an American who went through most of the US school system, this makes it really weird when I hear about how controversial it is when, say, Japanese schools do the same with their anthem.

I know intellectually why it is and why it's a problem, but it's really hard to get away from that kneejerk "Well of course they do that" reaction.

It's called 'conditioning'. Why do you think patriotism is so strong in your country? Coincidence? Gamma rays? Gotta keep shaping those young people to react to the right concepts!

Religion? Private parenting decision. Loyalty brainwashing? State responsibility. It's particularly amusing because of the attitude that all kinds of things that are part of the democratic process or the nature of a free society are sometimes considered 'disloyal'. Disloyal to what?

[Simon_Jester]

Perhaps- and this is just a question- a government that restrains and punishes said risk takers would be the more effective tool when it comes to avoiding such problems?

Punishing people who hurt their country by damaging its economy and social fabric sounds like a very appropriate idea. I support it.

Simon, those selfish oligarchs most probably think of themselves as good patriots because they can cloth themselves in all the paraphernalia of a flag-waving, real American, like flag-lapel pins, support-the-troops ribbons and the like already. Repeating some solemn yet ultimately vapid mantra every day just adds to the superficiality. Patriotism isn't the problem, it's elitist hybris.

Put this way: the US used to have a commensal or at least ammensal relationship with its powerful businessmen. Andrew Carnegie did a lot of questionable things, but he at least increased steel production and made large, valuable, enduring endowments to the arts and education. We cannot immediately say the US would be a better place had he never lived.

Now it has become parasitic- we can say the US would be better off had the Koch brothers never lived.

And speculatively, I wonder if one of the reasons for the shift from commensalism to parasitism is that somewhere along the way, we lost the ability to instill genuine, reliable desire to make the country a better place in the minds of the elite.

This could not realistically be fixed by superficial means, because superficial means don't teach someone how to feel chivalrous impulses.

[MrDakka]

It's called 'conditioning'. Why do you think patriotism is so strong in your country? Coincidence? Gamma rays? Gotta keep shaping those young people to react to the right concepts!

You have to brainwash protect the young and innocent from falling into the evil clutches of the Soviet Union

A quick online search shows that it was composed in the late 19th century, 1892. You know the whole jingoistic manifest destiny era.

As for stories my sixth grade teacher had us memorize the Preamble to the US Constitution along with the Gettysburg Address and repeat them after we said the pledge. Of course at the time I thought he was just being an ass.