Elizabeth Smart, raped? (and Abortion issues)

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-03-14 02:54pm

Kelly Antilles wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:
Kelly Antilles wrote:Mormon?
according to MSNBC he broke away from the Mormon church in the late 90's and well, went farther out into jesus land
There is something further out than Mormon?

There sure are some sick fuckers out there.

sadly there is. there is a bit of irony here, but i'm a little afraid to say it for fear of coming across as an insensitive prick...but here goes anyway. The Smart's are thanking " The Lord, God, Almighty" ad nauseum, but it was thier misguided extreme trust in aformentioned deity that got them into this mess. They trusted this Emmanuel fellow because he was a "God fearing man". they believed that his "faith" made him inherently good. What they didn't know that he was having conversations with god about violating their daughter. stupid people.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-14 03:27pm

*groan*

Bah, I don't even read Ted's and Enlightenment's posts anymore. I look, but all I see is "I'm a prick, I'm a prick, I'm a prick prick prick, I'm a loudmouth obnoxious prick."

That said, even if Roe v. Wade was overturned tomorrow (which it won't be), it wouldn't matter as much as many people believe. Roe v. Wade is not the beginning and the end of abortion in America; some states had adopted abortion laws before the decision, and many would likely keep their abortion laws even if the decision was overturned tomorrow.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-14 03:42pm

Stormbringer wrote:I could be wrong but it's the second trimester where the brain begins to develop. To kill it then could only be called murder. No matter how many abortions it affects it's murder flat out.

The question isn't when the brain begins to develop; the question is when does sentient activity begin? Just because it has a brain doesn't mean that it's deserving of rights. Early in the third trimester, the fetus' brain is monitored to have electrical activity similar to that of a normal human who is in a dream-like state. This seems like a good indication of sentience and human-like brain activity.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-03-14 03:55pm

Durandal wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:I could be wrong but it's the second trimester where the brain begins to develop. To kill it then could only be called murder. No matter how many abortions it affects it's murder flat out.
The question isn't when the brain begins to develop; the question is when does sentient activity begin? Just because it has a brain doesn't mean that it's deserving of rights. Early in the third trimester, the fetus' brain is monitored to have electrical activity similar to that of a normal human who is in a dream-like state. This seems like a good indication of sentience and human-like brain activity.

Regardless, it is a neanderthal activity tanatamount to leaving unwanted newborns on the ground to die. How are we supposed to call ourselves an enlightend society when we kill the unwanted byproducts of our hormones?

Sr.mal · Post by **Sr.mal** » 2003-03-14 04:08pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Durandal wrote:I agree with the spirit of the ruling, but I do think that abortions should be extended through the second trimester or maybe half-way through the pregnancy. While this only affects a very small percentage of abortions, I still don't think that there is enough evidence to justify making second-trimester abortions illegal. There's no question that third-trimester abortions should be banned, though.
I could be wrong but it's the second trimester where the brain begins to develop. To kill it then could only be called murder. No matter how many abortions it affects it's murder flat out.

By the way, the brain begins to develop 2 WEEKS after conception, commonly when most mothers do not even know they are pregnant.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-03-14 04:14pm

Durran Korr wrote:Bah, I don't even read Ted's and Enlightenment's posts anymore.

What the fuck do I have to do with this thread, redneck?

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-03-14 04:14pm

The line dividing legal abortion and murder can be drawn scientifically as the point when the fetus starts having brain activity.

Something with zero brain activity is not human life, is a clump of living cells. It cannot suffer.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-14 04:24pm

Enlightenment wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:Bah, I don't even read Ted's and Enlightenment's posts anymore.
What the fuck do I have to do with this thread, redneck?

Just your similarity to Ted, bigot. On what basis do you call me a redneck, BTW? Another generalization, since I'm from Georgia?

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-03-14 05:09pm

Durran Korr wrote:On what basis do you call me a redneck, BTW?

If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it probably is a duck.

If you want to flame me start another thread rather than flaming behind my back.

"And for those too dumb for tractor pulls, there's Georgia politics." -- Ross Sauer

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-14 05:12pm

Funny, I didn't realize I was a rural laborer.

If you want to flame me start another thread rather than flaming behind my back.

You're one to talk.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-03-14 05:13pm

You know what? Who cares? I am glad that she was found, but do you know how many children are abducted every day? Why do these rich Mormons get all of this press?

Next of Kin · Post by **Next of Kin** » 2003-03-14 05:15pm

Superman wrote:Why do these rich Mormons get all of this press?

Double standard I guess. But you bring up a good point.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-14 05:18pm

Superman wrote:You know what? Who cares? I am glad that she was found, but do you know how many children are abducted every day? Why do these rich Mormons get all of this press?

Maybe because it's so rare for a kid that's been gone as long as Elizabeth Smart had been is unlikely to turn up alive.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-03-14 05:18pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:Regardless, it is a neanderthal activity tanatamount to leaving unwanted newborns on the ground to die. How are we supposed to call ourselves an enlightend society when we kill the unwanted byproducts of our hormones?

When you consider that the people would be so irresponsible both in concieving the child (i.e. failing to use birth control) and in so carelessly discarding the consequences of such, who is to say they would be any better parents? It would seem almost a favor to the child to let such parents abort.

By the way, the brain begins to develop 2 WEEKS after conception, commonly when most mothers do not even know they are pregnant.

I've heard figures about the brain developing at such and such a time so many times that I refuse to accept any numbers without at least a fucking link to support the numbers.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-03-14 05:18pm

It just sort of makes me mad that all of these children go missing all of the fucking time, but the press decides to go crazy on a select few.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-03-14 05:20pm

I was not talking about her turning up. I was referring to the time when she was first abducted. Why does this family get all of this media attention? Why don't all children get this treatment?

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-03-14 05:21pm

Superman wrote:It just sort of makes me mad that all of these children go missing all of the fucking time, but the press decides to go crazy on a select few.

It would be interesting to see if the parents involved in the high-publicity cases hired publicists to bring their cases to popular attention...

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-03-14 05:22pm

I bet that they did. They have the money to do it.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-03-14 05:23pm

Durran Korr wrote:You're one to talk.

Yes. I've been able to speak for many years now.

I also only flame people in threads which either relate to themselves or within which they are active participants.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-14 05:23pm

Mr. Smart is an interesting fellow to say the least. If my kid turned up after being gone for months and possibly dead, I don't think I would be holding a press conference within a few days to talk about her. I would want to spend time with her.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-14 05:23pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:Regardless, it is a neanderthal activity tanatamount to leaving unwanted newborns on the ground to die. How are we supposed to call ourselves an enlightend society when we kill the unwanted byproducts of our hormones?

Please provide evidence for your claims or shut your fucking mouth. How are we supposed to call ourselves enlightened if we force a woman to undergo the physical and psychological trauma of pregnancy if a condom breaks, even when there are procedures we can perform early on that will enable her to not have to bear that pain and responsibility? How can we call ourselves enlightened if we consider a clump of cells with no self-awareness to speak of more important than a woman's well-being and right to choose?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-14 05:29pm

Durran Korr wrote:Mr. Smart is an interesting fellow to say the least. If my kid turned up after being gone for months and possibly dead, I don't think I would be holding a press conference within a few days to talk about her. I would want to spend time with her.

Better to give the media something to chew on that's real, rather then leave them with nothing but speculation.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-03-14 05:30pm

THIS IS SUBJECTIVE BULLSHIT! Why did this turn into an abortion debate? Gee, like we're going to change anyone's minds here...

By the way, as one who holds a degree in anthropology, I am not aware of any evidence of Neandertalls having or providing abortions. Now, there are Eskimo tribes that, because of the snowy climate, will leave their infants to die when they are burdon to the group...

Ahhh hell, now you got me on a tangent...

Ted · Post by **Ted** » 2003-03-14 05:33pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:Regardless, it is a neanderthal activity tanatamount to leaving unwanted newborns on the ground to die. How are we supposed to call ourselves an enlightend society when we kill the unwanted byproducts of our hormones?

Look at China.

They still have buckets of water in some maternity wards so that female babies can be drowned.

Females are frowned upon there, and the government has only just stopped that practice officially.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-03-14 05:44pm

Superman wrote:I was not talking about her turning up. I was referring to the time when she was first abducted. Why does this family get all of this media attention? Why don't all children get this treatment?

They got all the media attension, because the family KEPT the story in the news so that the chances of finding Elizabeth (dead or alive) would be higher. The family kept putting out info for the news to broadcast or print. In fact, one month ago, the family went public with the info on this "Emanuel" fuckhead. And against the police wishes at that, there was something of a brewhaha about it locally.

In some case, the family seemed to bask in the limelight but in others, it was obvious that they were dragging the media (locally anyway) kicking and screaming with this case. I say, Good For Them.