Life may be 9 billion years old

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Irbis
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Re: Life may be 9 billion years old

Post by Irbis »

Straha wrote:This is the sort of answer that has its head so far up the ass of anthropocentrism that it loses all perspective. Hominids have tool using intelligence, that's fine but I think irrelevant. In the grand scheme of things we're part of that hereditary group and thus I lump their experiences, or at least 'our' direct ancestors' experiences, in with 'our' experiences. What you're missing is that that hominid line took about four million years to get to this point (in fact I think it took far shorter, we can see all sorts of examples of non-human tool building and language use in contemporary species. The question, I think, is the development of the cultural, dare I say memetic, passing on of the skills of tool, in which case the distinction I'm probing here is not biological but social and dates back in the tens of thousands of years.), in the biological history of Earth that goes back 500 millions that's nothing. Why didn't other species to develop?
How do you know that? Humans started to really leave traces in geological record when we developed first civilization. There is nothing precluding your 4 million year window from happening - for all we know, dinosaur equivalent of primates was 3.5 million years underway when KT event come knocking. Scientists can't even agree how long after meteorite fall it took for dinosaurs to become extinct - some suggest tens to hundred thousand years. If part of the great extinction was caused by dinoprimates as they started civilization, we'd likely never know except for lucky find.
Or, let me boil this down even more. Hominids have developed for 60 million years (give or take) since the K-T event essentially reset most biological life on Earth. The Mesozoic period, by contrast, saw roughly 150 million to 200 million years of more or less stable development of life after the Permian-Triassic extinction event until the K-T event. Given our contemporaries it's fair to say that at least a degree of intelligence, communication, and tool use must have existed. So why do we not have evidence of a dominantly intelligent species during the Mesozoic period?
That's just it. You might develop faster in free, unclaimed niche, than having to fight the fit competition for it the whole time.
The foundation is there, along with the timeframe necessary for development to occur many times over. Given that it'd require very strong evidence to prove to me it didn't happen, so why don't we have evidence of it?
If every human today died suddenly, in just 100 years 98% of human civilization would become block of rubble. In 1000 years? 99.999%, most likely. The only place in Earth vicinity where any object could survive relatively unharmed (barring meteorite strike, somewhat likely in 65 mln years) is on the Moon. Nothing else, not even satellites, would survive.

Plus, think a bit. Archaeologist digging in 65 mln year old rock likely knows little about spotting traces of civilization his colleague digging in 6500 year old one has. If he sees stone tool, he will likely not recognize it, discard as natural object, or classify as younger intrusion. Because why not? We all know dinosaurs were just animals, right? Who wants to become laughing stock by suggesting otherwise?

As for why we don't see life on other stars, looking for radio signals might be as dumb as primitive human civilization today looking for smoke signs or tam-tams. It's also possible imagining era of reason and progress is naive, and any technical civilization ends up annihilating itself, by bio-weapons, runaway greenhouse effectss, or whatever technological danger we haven't seen yet.
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Re: Life may be 9 billion years old

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

*Cracks the knuckles*
If we take for granted that humans are an evolutionary product, and nothing more, and that intelligence is favored, if only partially, by evolution then it makes no sense for humans to be the only intelligent species to have evolved on Earth.
We aren't. Or at least, may not be. Certain cetaceans, some of the great apes, elephants, and perhaps octopi, corvids, and african grays all pass the bar of having at least 1st Order theory of mind, and possibly 2nd. In fact, dogs might even. It is just very difficult for us to recognize intelligence in another species with whom we cannot readily communicate. We have a... Cartesian Problem.

Here is the problem. Your assumptions. In order to change the focus of the Drake Equation, you had to add an assumption, namely that evolution favors intelligence. It does not, anymore than it favors webbed feet. It depends on the phylogenetic history of the organism, the ecological problem needing solved by blind tinkering, and physiological constraints on things like brain size and structure. For example, birds are capable of evolving rather impressive intelligence because flight and their evolutionary history as archosaurs pre-adapt them for it. To save weight, their neuron density is very high, they have to have a complex flight computer in there (so to speak) and they have had an well-developed social system since before they were birds.

Point being, some organisms have it easier than others when it comes to evolving intelligence, but there are still constraints. Energy intake, reproductive mode etc. For example, the head of the fetus having to get through the birth canal, which can only get so wide before females cant walk effectively, constraining brain size. We cannot have babies that are much more premature for example--and yes, all human babies are essentially preemies--and still have a decent chance of survival. So unless we re-organize our brains (fat chance), our intelligence is capped.

Other organisms have the same basic problem.

So we should not see a proliferation of technological civilizations on our one planet. Hell, out intelligence took 65 million years to evolve (I am starting at the genetic divergence of the mammalia (which is not their ecological divergence) in the late cretaceous). It required pre-adaptation by way of primate social systems, and a combination of rapidly changing physical environments and a Machiavellianity positive feedback loop to get us here.

The Drake Equation (and thus Fermi's Paradox) relies on the vast number of star systems and subsequent planets to get to the conclusion that there are extraterrestrial technological civilizations. Evolution does not need to favor anything.
This is the sort of answer that has its head so far up the ass of anthropocentrism that it loses all perspective. Hominids have tool using intelligence, that's fine but I think irrelevant. In the grand scheme of things we're part of that hereditary group and thus I lump their experiences, or at least 'our' direct ancestors' experiences, in with 'our' experiences. What you're missing is that that hominid line took about four million years to get to this point (in fact I think it took far shorter, we can see all sorts of examples of non-human tool building and language use in contemporary species. The question, I think, is the development of the cultural, dare I say memetic, passing on of the skills of tool, in which case the distinction I'm probing here is not biological but social and dates back in the tens of thousands of years.), in the biological history of Earth that goes back 500 millions that's nothing. Why didn't other species to develop?
You are missing his point. That social intelligence that permits the cultural transmission of tool use and design (for example) did not take tens of thousands of years. It took 65 million (see above). Why? Because for that to evolve, myriad other things have to evolve first within the lineage in question. It is not the cultural transmission of information you need to concern yourself with. It is the brain that is structured in such a way and large enough (for a given neuron density) that such a thing can evolve in the first place.
Or, let me boil this down even more. Hominids have developed for 60 million years (give or take) since the K-T event essentially reset most biological life on Earth.
No. It didn't. It opened the ecological niches for anything with a mass over about 25 kilos (with some leeway for larger things that could A) hide and B) survive in near-freezing temperatures with little food for years. Essentially, crocodilians and large ectothermic burrowing or aquatic reptiles, as well as sharks were the only large things that passed through the selective filter of the KT event). What filled those niches were things that were most rapidly able to take them over due to chance pre-adaptation. For example, sharks re-radiated to fill most of the aquatic predator niches left by mosasaurs and the non-croc archosaurs, because they were already there. Mammals had already differentiated into a wide variety of species by the time the KT event happened. They were not "reset". Their evolutionary histories and the constraints and pre-adaptations flowing therefrom were not erased.
The Mesozoic period, by contrast, saw roughly 150 million to 200 million years of more or less stable development of life after the Permian-Triassic extinction event until the K-T event.
No. It did not. There was another extinction event resulting from the breakup of Pangea and the subsequent titanic volcanism in the late triassic that wiped out 70% of all animal and plant life, and allowed the dinosaur branch of archosaurs to take over most terrestrial niches. Prior to that, the species compliment of earth was the stuff that survived--mostly by chance--the not-even-selective filter of the permian extinction. This included archosaurs, early dinosaurs, mammal like reptiles etc.

There was another (smaller and more gradual) extinction event brought about by a climate shift between the Jurassic and Cretaceous that did things like take out Stegosaurs and cut down Sauropod diversity.
Given our contemporaries it's fair to say that at least a degree of intelligence, communication, and tool use must have existed. So why do we not have evidence of a dominantly intelligent species during the Mesozoic period? Nothing in your answer touches on this.


The answer... is because you are full of shit.
If life has existed for three hundred to four hundred million years I think it is the height of human exceptionalism to say that the sort of accrual of skills and knowledge that has led to modern hominids and humans could have occurred in recent history.
*sigh*

Cultural knowledge transmission is not limited to humans, or even for that matter to primates. However, the reason we dont see evidence of reptile overlords of the world is that non existed. This is not to say that some of the therapods were not very clever (Troodon and the other raptors come to mind), and culturally transmitted information to their offspring. But a human-level intellect is not a thing that evolves just because it might be nice to have. In much the same way that just because it would be nice for a little pond turtle to be able to lay more and larger eggs, does not mean such a thing can evolve due to space limitations inside the shell.

Simply put, a favored trait (be it reproductive rate, or intelligence) will evolve until the benefit (in fitness) is equal to the cost of that trait--and that is for each marginal increase. Evolution cannot look ahead and decide "hey, the ability to do calculus would be useful!". It has to work incrementally. This (as mentioned above for things like fetal head size, and moms pelvic girdle) applies to humans, like it does for everything else.
The climate was stable
No. It was not. It was unstable over long time scales, too long for evolution to act upon. Actually, short time scale climatic instability is one the reasons we have the intelligence that we do--the ability to solve problems in an unpredictable environment is something evolution can work with.
there was certainly enough competitive impetus, braid development had occurred and we know from nesting sites that was social interaction throughout most of the time frame
Those are necessary but not sufficient conditions. See above regarding costs. The generation by generation marginal fitness benefit must outweigh the costs. For example, there is a limit to how large a structure like the brain can grow in an enclosed space. Dinosaurs had precocial offspring--they were developed enough to move about on their own very shortly after they hatch. This requires a well developed skeletal system etc. With their pre-existing brain structure they would need a brain case larger than what they had to produce human levels of intellect, which would need to fit inside an egg, which would necessarily take away space from other structures. There are two ways to solve this problem. Development can occur post hatching--in which case, mom is stuck taking care of completely helpless offspring for weeks or months, as opposed to looking after well developed ones-- or the egg can get larger. A larger egg means fewer eggs, and it may run into hard size limits on oviposition, egg strength, diffusion of oxygen etc. Then there are the energetic costs of an energy sucking brain. Thermoregulation for a large brain. Space limitations in the brain case that might impede other structures like the development of the olfactory bulb or inner eat if the dino equivalent of a neo-cortex (it would not be a neo-cortex) were to evolve. Birds solve this to some extent (and presumably pre-dates them i therapods somewhat) bu having a really high density of neurons, but even they run into limits due to the axon-->dendrite structure of vertebrate neural connections (which incidentally is not common to inverts. One of those early divergence things. An insect brain can do more with less because of the way their neurons are connected to eachother)
Given that it'd require very strong evidence to prove to me it didn't happen, so why don't we have evidence of it?
Other than what I just laid out because you dont know how evolution and development work?

Burden of proof fallacy, appeal to ignorance. Those are your failings (some of them, anyway).
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Re: Life may be 9 billion years old

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So, do you think the answer to the Fermi Paradox is just that advanced, tool-using civilizations are extremely rare because the type of intelligence that makes it possible is extremely rare? I remember biologist PZ Myers coming up with a similar conclusion about the evolution of intelligence (he also talks about dinosaurs in that presentation).
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Re: Life may be 9 billion years old

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Guardsman Bass wrote:So, do you think the answer to the Fermi Paradox is just that advanced, tool-using civilizations are extremely rare because the type of intelligence that makes it possible is extremely rare? I remember biologist PZ Myers coming up with a similar conclusion about the evolution of intelligence (he also talks about dinosaurs in that presentation).
Not so much rare. Just rare here. Remember, the conditions under which intelligence evolved here are particular to here. Life forms with a different history and a different set of selective pressures will evolve differently. The question of the frequency of advanced ETIs is something that has to be solved with one thing and one thing only. Data. That said, there are also some search bias issues. To detect another technological civilization we have to passively receive a radio signal that itself contains information (and is not just a byproduct of some other means of communication) that is broadcast for a wide audience. We are potentially looking at a pretty narrow window in which to detect other species in the cosmos. They have to be close enough that a transmission will reach us within the timeframe of the existence of radio on our planet. They have to be juuuuust at the right technological level that they both have and are still using broadwave radio transmissions--and that is if they are not using some other part of the EM spectrum for comms. They could be using Microwaves, for example. Hell, they could use visible light. Or, their understanding of physics could be beyond our own, and thus they could be using something else entirely. There could be 5000 technological civilizations scattered across the galaxy that are exactly on par with our own. And chances are, we would be unable to detect a single one because they would have to be within 100 light years of us, which, given the volume of the galaxy, is pretty damn unlikely.
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Re: Life may be 9 billion years old

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Singular Intellect wrote: Except Kurzweil has dealt with this claim on multiple occasions and even has had numerous experts submit their own independent data sets and demonstrated how they still yield exponential curves of progress.

However, that would require an honest review and actual understanding of Kurzweil's arguments and positions. Ergo, I understand your temptation to just lie about his position, not investigate if he's addressed a specific criticism and then just appeal to personal incredulity about his conclusions.

If you're going to criticize Kurzweil's position and arguments, by all means feel free to do so. Just don't submit an objection that is the hilarious equivalent of a theist who thinks they're proposing a clever god argument when it's one that has been addressed and shut down countless times already.
Instead of just waving your hand and smugly claiming I'm wrong, why don't you provide a link or source for me to verify what you say?

And take your arrogant, "Ohhh, you just don't UNDERSTAND, derp de derp" bullshit and shove it up your ass.
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Re: Life may be 9 billion years old

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Ziggy Stardust wrote: Instead of just waving your hand and smugly claiming I'm wrong, why don't you provide a link or source for me to verify what you say?

And take your arrogant, "Ohhh, you just don't UNDERSTAND, derp de derp" bullshit and shove it up your ass.
Oh ho ho ho, NOW you're interested in verifying what someone says, eh? About fucking time. Get cracking on backing up your bullshit claims about Kurzweil's position, arguments and counters to arguments exactly like yours.

You don't get to play chickenshit liar around here by just asserting what an individual's claims and arguments are without submitting a single shred of proof for your position, and when someone simply points out you're wrong without citing links or confirming this with evidence exactly like you just did, you get all huffy about 'prove what you say is true'.

Put up or shut up, dumbass. I'll start backing up Kurzweil's position with evidence once you start doing the same for yours. You don't get to sit there and pretend I have to do that work and you don't.

Assuming of course this tangent is permitted to go on.
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Re: Life may be 9 billion years old

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Sure, go ahead.
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Re: Life may be 9 billion years old

Post by Singular Intellect »

Zinegata wrote:As a rule of thumb, anyone who predicts "Technological SIngularity" is just spouting unfalsifiable horseshit on the same level as force-fitting Nostradamus "predictions". Kurzweil belongs to this category.
As an additional rule of thumb, anyone who just declares someone else's arguments and positions as horseshit without a single justification, never mind evidence, is as trustworthy as a starving piranha with a dick in its mouth.

And hey, Ziggy Stardust? Just to make shit nice and simple for you, I'm going to actually retract my claim Kurzweil has repeatedly debunked your oh so original criticism in his many talks and his writings, which is that he cherry picks his data to fit exponential curves suiting his preference.

I'll lie and pretend I've never heard of Kurzweil or any counter arguments he's made to criticisms like yours.

Now be a dear and prove your claim he does this. I look forward to your evidence and arguments.
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Re: Life may be 9 billion years old

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Singular Intellect wrote: As an additional rule of thumb, anyone who just declares someone else's arguments and positions as horseshit without a single justification, never mind evidence, is as trustworthy as a starving piranha with a dick in its mouth.
Sorry, I didn't notice this nonsense.

I didn't declare them horseshit without justification. This is you deliberately and maliciously ignoring the core of my argument because it proves your insane fear-mongering position to be complete nonsense.

I said they're horseshit because "Technological Singularity" is unfalsifiable. Again, Technological Singularity revolves around the idea that "Everything will suddenly be unpredictable the moment we develop AI!". So any idiot can point to some new "unpredictable" or "unforseen" development and claim it to be the Technological Singularity; even if there is no actual cauality between the "unforseen" event and AI development.

Why do you think I compared it to stupid Nostradamus predictions wherein you force-fit events to fit some really vague and unfalsifiable "prediction"? Nostradamus says "There will be a Great War". Oh, look, World War 2 happened - this must prove that Nostradamus was a visionary whose predictions always come true!

Come back with an actual idea or inkling of what the Technological Singularity is, then propose an actual fucking prediction instead of unfalsifiable horseshit; that's little more than the Computer Science version of the next End of the World prediction.

It's worth noting that Moore himself, who wrote Moore's law - finds the entire idea of the Technological Singularity to be utterly ridiculous despite the charlatans basing their theory off his (largely correct and provable) prediction that technological advancement has reached the point wherein we can double the processing power of our computing machines regularly within an X timeframe (variously given at 1-2 years); at least during the timeframe in which he made it.

That's an actual prediction, not Nostradamus-level "Technological Singularity" horseshit. Learn the difference.
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Re: Life may be 9 billion years old

Post by Zinegata »

And in case somebody wants a link... a panel of actual tech luminaries on the "Technological Singularity" - including Gordon Moore himself.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hard ... ingularity
Gordon E. Moore

WHO HE IS Cofounder and chairman emeritus of Intel Corp., cofounder of Fairchild Semiconductor, winner of the 2008 IEEE Medal of Honor, chairman of the board of the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation. Made the prediction about the increasing number of components on a semiconductor chip that came to be known as Moore's Law.

SINGULARITY WILL OCCUR Never

THOUGHTS ”I am a skeptic. I don't believe this kind of thing is likely to happen, at least for a long time. And I don't know why I feel that way. The development of humans, what evolution has come up with, involves a lot more than just the intellectual capability. You can manipulate your fingers and other parts of your body. I don't see how machines are going to overcome that overall gap, to reach that level of complexity, even if we get them so they're intellectually more capable than humans.”
===

And what's particularly funny is that in this panel of experts there are many different versions of what they forsee the Singularity to be. Some think it will be learning-based. Others think it is bio-based. Because like I keep saying, it's all actually just ill-defined unfalsifiable Nostradamus horseshit - you can fit your own ideal version of the technological future into this ill-defined "prediction".

Pinker is the one who cuts through all the crap and exposes the nonsense of the Technological Singularity with this succint write-up:
Steven Pinker

WHO HE IS Professor of psychology at Harvard; previously taught in the department of Brain and Cognitive Sciences at MIT, with much of his research addressing language development. Writes best sellers about the way the brain works, like The Blank Slate (2002) and The Stuff of Thought (2007).

SINGULARITY WILL OCCUR Never, ever

MACHINE CONSCIOUSNESS WILL OCCUR ”In one sense--information routing--they already have. In the other sense--first-person experience--we'll never know.”

MOORE'S LAW WILL CONTINUE FOR 10 more years

THOUGHTS ”There is not the slightest reason to believe in a coming singularity. The fact that you can visualize a future in your imagination is not evidence that it is likely or even possible. Look at domed cities, jet-pack commuting, underwater cities, mile-high buildings, and nuclear-powered automobiles--all staples of futuristic fantasies when I was a child that have never arrived. Sheer processing power is not a pixie dust that magically solves all your problems.”
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Re: Life may be 9 billion years old

Post by Singular Intellect »

Zinegata wrote:I didn't declare them horseshit without justification. This is you deliberately and maliciously ignoring the core of my argument because it proves your insane fear-mongering position to be complete nonsense.
Care to give an example of my insane fear-mongering position?
I said they're horseshit because "Technological Singularity" is unfalsifiable.
So then by all means define what you think the "Technological Singularity" is and why it is unfalsifiable.
Again, Technological Singularity revolves around the idea that "Everything will suddenly be unpredictable the moment we develop AI!".
We already have AI, therefore your claim that your idea of the technological singularity is unfalsifiable is clearly incorrect.

But of course, this depends what you mean by AI and the world being 'unpredictable'. Perhaps you can clarify your terms here, while understanding I don't subscribe to your definition of the Technological Singularity in the first place. You're the one making all the claims and stating subjective terms here, so by all means elaborate and submit your evidence for your position.

However, I do find it amusing you admit the Singularity has multiple definitions and make an appeal to authority as evidence it is horseshit. Perhaps you can be bothered to come up with a stronger and logical argument, and also start it by honestly pointing out you are refuting your own idea of what the Technological Singularity is.
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Re: Life may be 9 billion years old

Post by Zinegata »

Singular Intellect wrote: Care to give an example of my insane fear-mongering position?
I did. Kurzweil's support of the non-prediction and fear mongering nonsense called Technological Singularity. Stop lying.
So then by all means define what you think the "Technological Singularity" is and why it is unfalsifiable.
More nonsense lying. I already showed how a panel of experts can't even agree on what this supposed Technological Singularity is. That you challenge me to define something which I proved to be un-defineable (and hence unfalsifiable) only demonstrates the root duplicity of your position.

Here's a clue, dimwit: You're asking me to define something which I showed has no definite meaning; because it's a vague and unfalsifiable prediction. You then proceed to keep playing your "evade defeat games" by refusing to show you own definition, thus preventing it from being exposed as more stupid fear-mongering nonsense.

This is the same kind of fucking retardedness that Kurzweil tried to pull when his predictions about supercomputers becoming widely available to household turned out to be wrong; so he changed goal-posts by pretending that Google "counted" as a supercomputer; which really shows his pattern of behavior to be little more than Nostradmus styl prediction-making.

So really, spare everyone the fucking nonsense. This is why you completely fail to address Pinker's point - "What you imagine is not necessarily the future" - and your post is essentially just pathetic attempts at goalpost moving to avoid the fact that you and Kurzweil are talking out of your ass.
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Re: Life may be 9 billion years old

Post by Zinegata »

Also, just to demonstrate the appalling amount of goal-post moving that Singular INtellect has to perform to defend his position (a direct consequence of the unfalsifiability of Technological Singularity), let's look at this statement:
Singular Intellect wrote:We already have AI
That's not true.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17547694

The vast majority of Computer Scientists do not believe we have in fact created a "true" AI - The layman definition being that the computer intelligence must be able replicate human-level intelligence and consciousness. There are also other more formal "tests" that have been constructed, such as the Turing Test, which tests a very specific scope of the AI's capabilities vs the actual goal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test

What we curently have now - at best - are machines that can mimick certain human behaviors, still well below the layman's definition and will fail most of the actual formal tests.

Yet we have SI making this ridiculous and stupid claim that we "already have AI". That's not a truthful statement. It is only true in the context that we are already studying AI, or that we're making things that may lead to AI.

So, really, what kind of credibility will a bullshit prediction like Technological Singularity have when its entire "defense" revolves around goal-post moving and semantic gymnastics? The answer is NONE, because it was never a valid prediction or theory in the first place. It's unfalsifiable horseshit.
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Re: Life may be 9 billion years old

Post by Singular Intellect »

Zinegata wrote:I did. Kurzweil's support of the non-prediction and fear mongering nonsense called Technological Singularity. Stop lying.
Refresh my memory on where I've been making claims about a Technological Singularity.
More nonsense lying. I already showed how a panel of experts can't even agree on what this supposed Technological Singularity is. That you challenge me to define something which I proved to be un-defineable (and hence unfalsifiable) only demonstrates the root duplicity of your position.
So your position just boils down to claiming an undefined thing is unfalsifiable. My bad, I thought you were attacking Kurzweil's definition of the Singularity and claiming it was unfalsifiable. If you don't know what Kurzweil's definition of the Singularity is, just say so.
Here's a clue, dimwit: You're asking me to define something which I showed has no definite meaning; because it's a vague and unfalsifiable prediction. You then proceed to keep playing your "evade defeat games" by refusing to show you own definition, thus preventing it from being exposed as more stupid fear-mongering nonsense.
I'm not making any claims for or against any Singularity. I was under the impression you were calling Kurzweil's definition of a Technological Singularity unfalsifiable, hence why you brought up his name. Now you're admitting that the Singularity is something of a subjective term not clearly defined. Which brings into question how you can claim any definition of the Singularity is unfalsifiable, specifically Kurzweil's. You'd need to know what his definition of it is before claiming it is unfalsifiable.

Instead of harping on about there being multiple definitions of the term, why not just focus on Kurzweil's specific definition. I'm not particularly interested in any other definitions.
This is the same kind of fucking retardedness that Kurzweil tried to pull when his predictions about supercomputers becoming widely available to household turned out to be wrong; so he changed goal-posts by pretending that Google "counted" as a supercomputer; which really shows his pattern of behavior to be little more than Nostradmus styl prediction-making.
Can you submit a source for his actual prediction for that, in his words and not yours? Along with the example of his changing the prediction as you claim he did? I'm not interested in your claims without you citing your sources and evidence for them.
So really, spare everyone the fucking nonsense. This is why you completely fail to address Pinker's point - "What you imagine is not necessarily the future" - and your post is essentially just pathetic attempts at goalpost moving to avoid the fact that you and Kurzweil are talking out of your ass.
Considering I'm not making any claims, I find it strange you assert I'm talking out of my ass. I'm merely asking you to provide the evidence and sources to back up your claims.
Zinegata wrote:
Singular Intellect wrote:We already have AI
That's not true.
This is why here I specifically stated the following:
But of course, this depends what you mean by AI and the world being 'unpredictable'. Perhaps you can clarify your terms here
You mentioned AI, I said we already have AI, but the term has a broad usage and therefore I asked you to clarify your specific meaning of it. Kindly be a dear and read what I say next time.
"Now let us be clear, my friends. The fruits of our science that you receive and the many millions of benefits that justify them, are a gift. Be grateful. Or be silent." -Modified Quote
Zinegata
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2482
Joined: 2010-06-21 09:04am

Re: Life may be 9 billion years old

Post by Zinegata »

Hey, look, Singular Intellect continues to be a retard engaging in goalpost moving.
Refresh my memory on where I've been making claims about a Technological Singularity.
So you now deny that you're defending Technological Singularity? Why did you challenge me to define it then? As you did here:
So then by all means define what you think the "Technological Singularity" is and why it is unfalsifiable.
All I actually said is that Kurzweil is full of shit because he espoused Technological Singularity. His insistence on the Singularity is very well-known, along with his bullshit prediction about Supercomputers suddenly becoming "Google is a Supercomputer".

Hence, clearly, you are not debating honestly. You are switching topics around like a shell game because you know damn well Kurzweil and you are both full of shit.

How full of shit? Well...
So your position just boils down to claiming an undefined thing is unfalsifiable. My bad, I thought you were attacking Kurzweil's definition of the Singularity and claiming it was unfalsifiable. If you don't know what Kurzweil's definition of the Singularity is, just say so.
Wait, Kuzweil has his own ultra-special definition of Technological Singularity? Shocking! Maybe he should have stop plugging such an undefineable, unfalsifiable, and hence unscientific "prediction" to begin with!

But sure, because you're too fucking cowardly to actually show Kurzweil's version of the Singularity (and watch SI pretend that what I post isn't Kurzweil's version), how about we link one of his papers about the subject?

http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-law-of-ac ... ng-returns

Wherein he defines the Singularity as such:
The Singularity is technological change so rapid and so profound that it represents a rupture in the fabric of human history.
Which is already unfalsifiable horse crap. What exactly is a "rupture in the fabric of human history"? We break the space-time continuum? We stop recording history and start relying on pseudo-science? Kurzweil decides to convert to Scientology?

The above statement literally has no defineable meaning. It is therefore not falsifiable, and Kurzweil can just insert *new and exciting development here* and claim it's the "rupture in the fabric of human history" that he predicted all along!

In fact, the best that he can give us are implications of what the Singularity could be, which he outlines below:
The implications include the merger of biological and nonbiological intelligence, immortal software-based humans, and ultra-high levels of intelligence that expand outward in the universe at the speed of light.
Which may sound impressive and all, but it's just your standard laundry list from any sci-fi (particularly cyberpunk) novel. Incidentally, Kurzweil is apparently writing a science fiction novel about his imaginary superheroine daughter. Make of that what you will.

In short, Kurzweil is a charlatan - feeding off people's desire for technology to solve all the world's problems - without actually making any real good predictions. It's wish fulfillment by pseudoscience - He's just throwing out laundry lists of current developments, makes undefineable and unfalsifiable predictions, and then force-fits new developments into his "rupture in the fabric of human history" to get to say "I was right all along".

Which is stupid and silly nonsense, meant to feed gullible people who are full of themselves and try to pretend they're smarter than everyone. It's no surprise that his essay contains lines like this:
You will get $40 trillion just by reading this essay and understanding what it says.
Which is why Kurzweil backers rabidly defend him by similar goal-post moving tactics: They're too wedded to the idea that they have seen the future worth $40 trillion dollars when in fact they're just imagining domed cities and rocket ships in their deluded imaginations.
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