Moore, Oklahoma pretty much wiped off the map

[Zaune]

I still think the easiest way of solving this issue would be for the state to fork out for public shelters every n hundred metres in populated areas. They could double as storage for emergency equipment and temporary accomodation for anyone made homeless as well.

But that would involve spending public money to ensure the safety and wellbeing of the poor, so of course it won't go anywhere.

[Broomstick]

Putting a shelter in a school might protect those at the school, but that won't protect a local population. Even with today's tech you'd be lucky to get 15-30 minutes warning, and typically you get from 0-10. That's not enough time for everyone to congregate at mass shelters. You need in-home shelters as well, and to be financial feasible those have to be inexpensive in a real sense. The only way to make that work is to dig a hole and put a lid on it, or install a small bunker that doubles as a storage nook when not in use as a tornado shelter.

Which is a point frequently overlooked - tornado shelters can be brutally small. You only need them for about 30 second at most, and usually won't be in them more than a few minutes. You just need to physically cram people inside, like stuffing a phone booth. That's how they can have above-ground safe rooms that are workable, they're massive concrete boxes with a tiny hollow for people to duck into.

ETA: The last time a tornado tore through my neighborhood we got ZERO warning - the damn thing was so freakin' loud what with debris hitting buildings and ripping off roofs and dismantling trees that almost no one heard the sirens over the din. My home didn't take a direct hit, but we woke up because bits of other peoples' homes were landing on our roof. (thank goodness it was just an EF1) People need a safe place to duck really close by, these aren't storms like hurricanes where you get days of warnings. You often don't have the time to evacuate to another location.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Napoleon the Clown, you personally insulted me by saying that I couldn't fathom the power of an EF5. "EF5 does shit that makes no sense" is exactly what you said, and I made you take ownership of it. You are the one taking things excessively literally; because of how packed a tornado shelter can be, a house which can survive it is the same thing as, easily, a shelter for 400 people. At 2,500 USD per person the shelter starts to look more affordable.

And as Skimmer noted, I was being absurdly conservative. Oh well, let's instead rely on a totally false reputation pinned on me due to retarded board drama almost a decade ago to regurgitate a couple of cheap shots and try to backpedal furiously on your moronitude.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

You realize that scour is governed by a complicated set of factors including viscosity that make it much worse in water than in air unless the surface material of the solid being affected is incredibly loose like desert sand, right? Even a highly particulate tornado hovering over a town for a month (!!) like in your example would probably only drive surface scour to something like 6mm, not meters, because of the differences in density and viscosity more than cancelling out a rough doubling of wind speed--by a few orders of magnitude. This is of course a major topic of research in my department and I can go into as much detail as might like, but wind-driven scour is basically only a problem in desert environments, and then over a time scale of years including major storms.

I'd love for you to go into more detail - this is something i've spent a while looking at, but the compressibility of air (especially) means my mental models aren't up the scratch.

Remind me several times via PM and I will ultimately start a thread containing the promised detail in SLAM.

[Simon_Jester]

Putting a shelter in a school might protect those at the school, but that won't protect a local population. Even with today's tech you'd be lucky to get 15-30 minutes warning, and typically you get from 0-10. That's not enough time for everyone to congregate at mass shelters.

Let's apply some more detail to that:

If we assumed five minutes' warning, well, how far can people move in the middle of a torrential rainstorm after receiving warning that a tornado is headed more or less straight for them? I think more than 150-200 yards "as the crow flies" would be optimistic even for able-bodied individuals who know where the shelter is- that's including some time to orient yourself since you usually won't immediately know the optimal path to your destination, and to zig-zag around obstacles such as rows of buildings.

Meanwhile you also have the disabled people, plus the people from out of town who have no fucking clue where the shelters are, or who simply forgot that information, plus the people who trip and fall in the rain and get hurt... and a lot of them are now caught in the open with a tornado bearing down on them. Oops.

Probably a lot simpler to pour one foot (or six inch or whatever) concrete cubes with big doors on them for people to plunk down in their backyards or even inside their houses. The problem being that such a shelter is not necessarily safe against an EF5, once you 'minimize' it for mass-production. Think of those Anderson shelters; Broomstick made it sound like they're a meaningfully common type of tornado shelter, and we already know they were optimized for mass production in the runup to WWII as a civil defense measure. But the catch is that the Anderson shelter is not necessarily safe in the most intense tornadoes, although one would HOPE that it is, especially if you heap up some hard-packed dirt on top of it (the 'sail area' of the shelter is only a few square feet, and it would probably take tons of force to uproot it).
_______________________

This reminds me of that civil defense survey Stuart used to talk about, the one that established that people were if anything more likely to survive a nuclear attack if you didn't warn them. Because most people's reaction to "a nuclear missile is landing on your city in 30 minutes, what do you do?" is to freak out and do something unlikely to keep them alive, such as joining the massive traffic jams on a major highway. People were, according to what he said,* more likely to be inside buildings and under cover that would preserve their lives by blind chance.

*which may or may not be accurate

ETA: The last time a tornado tore through my neighborhood we got ZERO warning - the damn thing was so freakin' loud what with debris hitting buildings and ripping off roofs and dismantling trees that almost no one heard the sirens over the din. My home didn't take a direct hit, but we woke up because bits of other peoples' homes were landing on our roof. (thank goodness it was just an EF1) People need a safe place to duck really close by, these aren't storms like hurricanes where you get days of warnings. You often don't have the time to evacuate to another location.

Going by that description, the sheer noise would alert you to the danger and need to evacuate- but by the time you hear it, you're already in an area where giant chunks of debris are getting thrown around like matchsticks, which is NOT the ideal environment to freak out and do the 100-yard-dash.

Napoleon the Clown, you personally insulted me by saying that I couldn't fathom the power of an EF5. "EF5 does shit that makes no sense" is exactly what you said, and I made you take ownership of it. You are the one taking things excessively literally; because of how packed a tornado shelter can be, a house which can survive it is the same thing as, easily, a shelter for 400 people. At 2,500 USD per person the shelter starts to look more affordable.

This, unfortunately, runs into the problem above- you get relatively little warning that the tornado is coming, and it's very unsafe to be running into the shelter in the minutes immediately before it hits you. Looking at the warning time, comparing this to, say, Russian missile attacks or German air raids in 1940, you have a similar situation: you might know half an hour in advance, but you might realistically have to react on five minutes' notice or less.

I suspect that if you analyze this you'll come to the same conclusion the British did during the Blitz: massive public shelters are not very cost-effective except in areas where large groups of people would congregate naturally (schools may well qualify). The lack of advance warning creates the problem Broomstick was talking about, which in turn leads to Anderson shelters and the like for everyone, which will usually preserve their lives and weather the blow, but may fail in the most intense tornadoes possible.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Napoleon the Clown, you personally insulted me by saying that I couldn't fathom the power of an EF5. "EF5 does shit that makes no sense" is exactly what you said, and I made you take ownership of it. You are the one taking things excessively literally; because of how packed a tornado shelter can be, a house which can survive it is the same thing as, easily, a shelter for 400 people. At 2,500 USD per person the shelter starts to look more affordable.

And as Skimmer noted, I was being absurdly conservative. Oh well, let's instead rely on a totally false reputation pinned on me due to retarded board drama almost a decade ago to regurgitate a couple of cheap shots and try to backpedal furiously on your moronitude.

Your post was several above mind. It's too much for me to assume people can tell to whom I refer. Sea Skimmer was the person to post right before me. I'll keep in mind reading comprehension in threads you post to so this doesn't happen again. (See? I can volley insults right back. Keep in mind you started the insults first.)

I am curious where I said anything about scouring effects in tornadoes. Mind quoting me on that?

[Broomstick]

Meanwhile you also have the disabled people, plus the people from out of town who have no fucking clue where the shelters are, or who simply forgot that information, plus the people who trip and fall in the rain and get hurt... and a lot of them are now caught in the open with a tornado bearing down on them. Oops.

You also forgot the elderly who can't move fast (well, suppose they might be included under disabled) and the kids, who may either be uncooperative in general or terrified or both. But yeah, you can't plan for just the able-bodied.

Think of those Anderson shelters; Broomstick made it sound like they're a meaningfully common type of tornado shelter, and we already know they were optimized for mass production in the runup to WWII as a civil defense measure. But the catch is that the Anderson shelter is not necessarily safe in the most intense tornadoes, although one would HOPE that it is, especially if you heap up some hard-packed dirt on top of it (the 'sail area' of the shelter is only a few square feet, and it would probably take tons of force to uproot it).

If I understand the construction of Anderson shelters if they were used outside they really do need to be entirely underground, otherwise they're vulnerable to having their tops breached by flying debris. One type of cheap, underground shelter isn't that different from an Anderson: Ground Zero underground shelter. They also have safe rooms and outdoor concrete shelters. However, I will qualify the word "cheap" by saying these shelters are around $6,000 each to purchase and install (I got that from a TV interview with these guys, not on the website).

Note that the shelter itself is not really exposed (initially) to the tornado. They're either earth-sheltered or, in the case of a safe room, are surrounded by building structure that will help withstand flying debris at least briefly.

ETA: The last time a tornado tore through my neighborhood we got ZERO warning - the damn thing was so freakin' loud what with debris hitting buildings and ripping off roofs and dismantling trees that almost no one heard the sirens over the din. My home didn't take a direct hit, but we woke up because bits of other peoples' homes were landing on our roof. (thank goodness it was just an EF1) People need a safe place to duck really close by, these aren't storms like hurricanes where you get days of warnings. You often don't have the time to evacuate to another location.

Going by that description, the sheer noise would alert you to the danger and need to evacuate- but by the time you hear it, you're already in an area where giant chunks of debris are getting thrown around like matchsticks, which is NOT the ideal environment to freak out and do the 100-yard-dash.

Yes, sometimes the only warning you get is the roar of the twister. They are LOUD. The sound has been described as a "waterfall" (yeah, if you mean "Niagara" when you say "waterfall") or "freight train" (this one gets my vote), and when it's over you you won't be able to shout over the sound of it. They are often (although not always) proceeded by an eerie silence that makes it more likely you can hear it coming, although they can also hit in the midst of hail and high winds. But yes, if you're only warning is your own senses you won't have time to go elsewhere, you'll have to find shelter in a matter of minutes, if not seconds.

Which is another point - the biggest tornadoes come from the biggest thunderstorms. Hail, blinding rain, high winds - and do keep in mind that much of Tornado Alley can have straight line winds of 100 kph on a clear, sunny day, so when we say "high winds" you have to keep in mind that what we consider "high winds" is probably a bit faster than what most people do. Think windspeed equivalent to a category 1 or 2 hurricane. This is not safe travel weather.

I suspect that if you analyze this you'll come to the same conclusion the British did during the Blitz: massive public shelters are not very cost-effective except in areas where large groups of people would congregate naturally (schools may well qualify). The lack of advance warning creates the problem Broomstick was talking about, which in turn leads to Anderson shelters and the like for everyone, which will usually preserve their lives and weather the blow, but may fail in the most intense tornadoes possible.

^ This.

[Simon_Jester]

If I understand the construction of Anderson shelters if they were used outside they really do need to be entirely underground, otherwise they're vulnerable to having their tops breached by flying debris.

Yes, but potentially you can just shovel dirt over them and tamp it down- pile on enough and it should be tolerably safe.

Shelters of this type could probably be made a lot cheaper than they are now- none of the steps is that expensive, and the Anderson shelter in particular was designed to be manufactured in huge numbers, very cheaply, in a hurry, and installed equally quickly by unskilled labor.

Doing all this in the context of building codes and certification probably makes it a lot more of a pain in the rear.

^ This.

I feel like the analogy between tornadoes and Nazi air-raids is helpful: both can be detected on radar 10-30 minutes out if you're lucky, both cause a lot of shattering and overpressure property damage, both hurl debris, et cetera...

Note that the heavy concrete shelters people are talking about are more comparable to the big, 'bunkered' communal shelters the Germans built to survive much more massive raids. Although they're far, far lighter than the biggest of those bunkers; a Flakturm could weather any imaginable tornado up to and beyond the dreaded F5 without difficulty, being this big slab-sided monster of meter thick concrete.

[Sky Captain]

Main danger to above ground shelters in a tornado probably is not the wind, but stuff thrown around. A flying 5 ton truck or tree trunk would crush a shelter that otherwise would withstand the wind force just fine. So the deciding factor when setting a design specifications would be what kind of impact we want this shelter to survive.

[Irbis]

If we assumed five minutes' warning, well, how far can people move in the middle of a torrential rainstorm after receiving warning that a tornado is headed more or less straight for them? I think more than 150-200 yards "as the crow flies" would be optimistic even for able-bodied individuals who know where the shelter is- that's including some time to orient yourself since you usually won't immediately know the optimal path to your destination, and to zig-zag around obstacles such as rows of buildings.

What, doing once a month drill (with some incentive so that lazy people would participate, too) so that even dumbest people work out optimal path and could follow it in actual emergency would be too hard?

I also think 200 yards in 5 minutes is stretching it - that's about 0.5 m/s, average running speed is 9-11 m/s so you'd need really strong wind in your face to even get close to that.

Meanwhile you also have the disabled people, plus the people from out of town who have no fucking clue where the shelters are, or who simply forgot that information, plus the people who trip and fall in the rain and get hurt... and a lot of them are now caught in the open with a tornado bearing down on them. Oops.

Disabled people - make them register with local police and emergency services so they know who to evacuate first? And that in case they really have no one who could help them. Same with outsiders, hand out leaflets in hotels (or just, I don't know, build shelters in big buildings, like hotels) telling them where to go. Yes, these aren't ideal solutions, but they certainly beat lamenting we can't do anything and waiting for providence.

[Broomstick]

What, doing once a month drill (with some incentive so that lazy people would participate, too) so that even dumbest people work out optimal path and could follow it in actual emergency would be too hard?

We do have monthly drills to test the warning systems, usually well advertised in advance so people don't erroneously think the test is an actual emergency.

You're still having trouble wrapping your head around the actual situation, which isn't too surprising. Most people outside of tornado alley, and even quite a few within it, don't really understand the timing of a tornado. They don't always strike at a convenient time. It's not a matter of finding ONE "optimal path" to shelter because people don't stay rooted to one spot 24/7. While I have my plan for when I'm at home that won't do much for me if I'm out on the interstate or at the shopping mall when a tornado shows up.

I also think 200 yards in 5 minutes is stretching it - that's about 0.5 m/s, average running speed is 9-11 m/s so you'd need really strong wind in your face to even get close to that.

Yes, well, really strong winds are a feature of the storms the breed tornadoes. Did you miss my prior post where I mention wind speeds in these storms may be equivalent to a category 2 hurricane? Yes, you really might be facing into a wind that makes forward movement difficult even for an able-bodied adult.

Meanwhile you also have the disabled people, plus the people from out of town who have no fucking clue where the shelters are, or who simply forgot that information, plus the people who trip and fall in the rain and get hurt... and a lot of them are now caught in the open with a tornado bearing down on them. Oops.

Disabled people - make them register with local police and emergency services so they know who to evacuate first? And that in case they really have no one who could help them.

Seriously, when you may have at most 5-15 minutes warning you expect the police to run around town and get all the disabled folks into their shelters in that time frame? And no, you do not "evacuate" people there is not enough time to get people out of the area, that's why you need shelters in the immediate vicinity.

That's not a workable solution. The completely disabled will probably have some sort of attendant to get them to safety but you need something for the folks not too crippled to exist on their own who nonetheless aren't highly mobile.

Same with outsiders, hand out leaflets in hotels (or just, I don't know, build shelters in big buildings, like hotels) telling them where to go. Yes, these aren't ideal solutions, but they certainly beat lamenting we can't do anything and waiting for providence.

Building shelters in hotels only works if you never allow the tourists to leave the hotel. I agree, information on weather safety should be distributed to visitors and probably is in some instances.

However, what can do really is limited. The US gets about 700 tornadoes a year - fortunately, most of them on the mild end of the scale. Most of the time, you won't get more than 5-15 minutes warning (and that's a vast improvement from when I was young - when I was a kid you were lucky to get 5 minutes at all, we didn't have satellites and modern computers to help us). People talking about evacuation and large, centrally located public shelters don't get it - those are not viable solutions to the problem. You need widely distributed shelters over a large area. They don't need to be big, and they don't need amenities because you aren't going to be in one for more than a few minutes.

As someone who has lived in the US Midwest all my life, who has had several encounters with tornadoes, I favor basement shelters, safe rooms, and in public facilities engineering public restrooms to double as storm shelters. My opinion may change in the future, but for right now I think that's the best we have.

[Simon_Jester]

If we assumed five minutes' warning, well, how far can people move in the middle of a torrential rainstorm after receiving warning that a tornado is headed more or less straight for them? I think more than 150-200 yards "as the crow flies" would be optimistic even for able-bodied individuals who know where the shelter is- that's including some time to orient yourself since you usually won't immediately know the optimal path to your destination, and to zig-zag around obstacles such as rows of buildings.

What, doing once a month drill (with some incentive so that lazy people would participate, too) so that even dumbest people work out optimal path and could follow it in actual emergency would be too hard?

I also think 200 yards in 5 minutes is stretching it - that's about 0.5 m/s, average running speed is 9-11 m/s so you'd need really strong wind in your face to even get close to that.

You're also:
1) Dodging wind-hurled crap,
2) Moving in a rainstorm which hurts visibility and footing,
3) May be sixty years old or sick or greatly obese and therefore unable to make a 200-yard dash,
4) Zigzagging between buildings- note that I said "as the crow flies;" real human beings have to follow the streets. You may not be able to cut across fences or other terrain features to get to your shelter.

Disabled people - make them register with local police and emergency services so they know who to evacuate first? And that in case they really have no one who could help them. Same with outsiders, hand out leaflets in hotels (or just, I don't know, build shelters in big buildings, like hotels) telling them where to go. Yes, these aren't ideal solutions, but they certainly beat lamenting we can't do anything and waiting for providence.

They do not, however, beat just putting one shelter in or right next to each building. Because that way, at least you can get to a shelter for every tornado, one that might prove inadequate occasionally.

If we build Big Grand Shelters, and rely on them mainly, then... if the tornado's path is not predicted accurately, or if you're close to where it forms, or if you're on the toilet when the alarm rings and take a few extra minutes to get to the shelter, or if you get confused and turned around while running through a thunderstorm to get to the shelter... you're caught in the open and you're found after the storm with your head embedded in a brick wall.

Please remember that for the majority of tornadoes, taking shelter inside a building is SO much better than taking any real risk of being caught in the open.

Seriously, when you may have at most 5-15 minutes warning you expect the police to run around town and get all the disabled folks into their shelters in that time frame? And no, you do not "evacuate" people there is not enough time to get people out of the area, that's why you need shelters in the immediate vicinity.

An obvious example would be, not what we normally think of as 'disabled,' but just somebody who's on crutches due to a broken leg. Or taking bed rest because of a back injury.

There have been days when... well, suppose that you got me out of bed, and told me that I had to move 200 yards in five minutes or die in a tornado. I'd have sat down to write my will and park it under a rock, knowing that an injury would make it practically impossible for me to do so. And yet I am not "disabled."

[Elfdart]

And OK Senaturd Tom Colburn is saying he wants offsets for disaster relief. What a bastard.

You know what's really scummy about Coburn and Inhofe? They have the luxury of being total cunts when it comes to disaster relief because they know the rest of the Senate is more interested in appearing halfway civilized than in petty settling of scores, so they won't call these scumbag motherfuckers on their bullshit.

The reps and senators from the east coast would be justified in saying "Not one dime for Oklahoma: Ask your Senators why!"

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Napoleon the Clown, you personally insulted me by saying that I couldn't fathom the power of an EF5. "EF5 does shit that makes no sense" is exactly what you said, and I made you take ownership of it. You are the one taking things excessively literally; because of how packed a tornado shelter can be, a house which can survive it is the same thing as, easily, a shelter for 400 people. At 2,500 USD per person the shelter starts to look more affordable.

And as Skimmer noted, I was being absurdly conservative. Oh well, let's instead rely on a totally false reputation pinned on me due to retarded board drama almost a decade ago to regurgitate a couple of cheap shots and try to backpedal furiously on your moronitude.

Your post was several above mind. It's too much for me to assume people can tell to whom I refer. Sea Skimmer was the person to post right before me. I'll keep in mind reading comprehension in threads you post to so this doesn't happen again. (See? I can volley insults right back. Keep in mind you started the insults first.)

I am curious where I said anything about scouring effects in tornadoes. Mind quoting me on that?

You were part of a general trend of inane overestimate of the effects of an EF5, and your comments were in that line, so that's all I needed.

[Simon_Jester]

That said, I still think Broomstick's point is the good one here: while construction of aboveground shelters capable of withstanding virtually anything is possible, it is not the most economical option to provide individual shelters for each person against an EF5; that would be an underground hole with a concrete slab parked over it. And individual shelters are needed for that role, for the reasons discussed. Heavily built aboveground shelters would be the province of public spaces, where they can be easily incorporated into large buildings in an unobtrusive way.

[Enigma]

Thanks for the info and clarification. I have another question, has there been a tornado classified higher than an EF5?

[Broomstick]

No, and there won't be unless they changed the scale. EF5 is defined as sustained winds of 200 mph or greater with no upper limit. So, a tornado with 300 mph winds (and such was detected in Moore, OK several years ago) is still an EF5.

[ThatOneCatC]

And OK Senaturd Tom Colburn is saying he wants offsets for disaster relief. What a bastard.

You know what's really scummy about Coburn and Inhofe? They have the luxury of being total cunts when it comes to disaster relief because they know the rest of the Senate is more interested in appearing halfway civilized than in petty settling of scores, so they won't call these scumbag motherfuckers on their bullshit.

The reps and senators from the east coast would be justified in saying "Not one dime for Oklahoma: Ask your Senators why!"

That wouldnt work as their reason is they are leaving after their term to work for conservative "think tanks" and therefore give no shits for the electorate anymore. Refusing (or making the motions to anyway) aid just cements their tea party chops to their new employers.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Napoleon the Clown, you personally insulted me by saying that I couldn't fathom the power of an EF5. "EF5 does shit that makes no sense" is exactly what you said, and I made you take ownership of it. You are the one taking things excessively literally; because of how packed a tornado shelter can be, a house which can survive it is the same thing as, easily, a shelter for 400 people. At 2,500 USD per person the shelter starts to look more affordable.

And as Skimmer noted, I was being absurdly conservative. Oh well, let's instead rely on a totally false reputation pinned on me due to retarded board drama almost a decade ago to regurgitate a couple of cheap shots and try to backpedal furiously on your moronitude.

Your post was several above mind. It's too much for me to assume people can tell to whom I refer. Sea Skimmer was the person to post right before me. I'll keep in mind reading comprehension in threads you post to so this doesn't happen again. (See? I can volley insults right back. Keep in mind you started the insults first.)

I am curious where I said anything about scouring effects in tornadoes. Mind quoting me on that?

You were part of a general trend of inane overestimate of the effects of an EF5, and your comments were in that line, so that's all I needed.

Just how much have you researched about tornadoes? I never stated they do anything that hasn't been recorded. Not everyone commenting in a thread is talking to you. You're not the Special Snowflake of SND.

Tornadoes do shit you wouldn't expect without sitting down and crunching all the relevant numbers. When you hear "This naturally occurring wind caused measurable deformation of a large building's skeleton" your first thought it "bullshit it did." Then, crunch the numbers for what tornado winds do, and you go "Wait, that can happen." And it has happened. If a tornado can carry a train several hundred yards or twist a fucking skyscraper it isn't overestimating what it can do to say that a large shelter would be extremely expensive if you want it to be resistant enough to call "EF5 proof." And that's ignoring that a truck may fall on your shelter.

I'm gonna make an aside here and note I wasn't around a decade ago. The fly off the handle comment is based off things others have said, it's based off what you've done during the time I've visited this board. Just getting the facts straight, is all.

[Broomstick]

.... and the Oklahoma City area got hit again with tornadoes yesterday.

During rush hour tornadoes hit the area, including two tornadoes that tracked directly over jammed interstates. This is bad because 1) a car or truck is NOT a safe place in a twister and 2) rush hour freeways tend to be parking lots, especially in bad weather. There were reports of people driving the wrong way in an effort to escape funnel clouds heading towards them and plenty of YouTube footage from inside vehicles getting slammed with tree parts and bits of buildings. Keep in mind that not only were 80 mph/130 kph wind gusts apart from the tornadoes, hail, and torrential rain on a gridlocked road, but these tornadoes were moving at about 50 mph/80 kph.

At least five deaths, including at least two literally sucked out of vehicles lofted into the air by winds. At least 89 injured. Five torndoes near Oklahmoa city out of a reported 17 total in the Midwest yesterday (we had a report of a funnel cloud about 25 km south of where I live, though my home got only wind and moderate rain). None of them were a "supertwister" but you don't need an F5 to kill you if you're out in the open.

Oh - and this was all followed up by severe flooding. By the way, there have been more deaths in the Midwest due to flooding these past few weeks than due to tornadoes.

Now, I've lived in the US Midwest "Tornado Alley" most of my life but this does seem unusual even by our standards.

[Irbis]

Now, I've lived in the US Midwest "Tornado Alley" most of my life but this does seem unusual even by our standards.

Warmer atmosphere means more kinetic energy that eventually has to go somewhere. If anything, in two decades today will probably be hailed as calm year if nothing changes.

Not that denialists would ever admit it's yet another proof they're wrong, if anything, to them it's proof for Global Cooling (because winds totally cool you, man).