Pope acknowledges atheists can be good people

[Lagmonster]

In case there were any doubt that the newest Pope is an improvement, he says that atheists can go to heaven if the 'do good'. From the CNN article here, he is quoted as saying about heaven, "We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there." It's fairly clear that he believes that good people will become catholics in due course, but it's nice to be included in the debate and acknowledged as a good person despite a lack of faith from a major religious leader.

I'm wondering if this new pope is percieved as somewhat of a maverick in the ranks of the church; if you continue with the article, a wave of spokesmen for the Vatican came sprinting out afterwards to assure everyone that the status quo on salvation hadn't changed.

[Ahriman238]

Yay!

Seriously, the church's biggest self-imposed obstacle from the Reformation onwards has been the dogmatic insistence that they, and they alone, can save your soul.

[Crossroads Inc.]

The insistence by Catholics (and many other groups) that they and Only they can get you to heaven always puzzled me.
As a kid growing up in the catholic church, I had this idea of millions of people across the world in Eastern countries going to hell and god saying "I Love You!" to each one as them plummeted into the flames...

The new pope is really tuning out to be a maverick, or at least as much of a 'Maverick' as you can be in such an institution.
Saying something like this is REALLY going to ruffle the feathers of the traditionalists.

[Alkaloid]

Honestly, I'm not sure this is so out there. I went to a catholic primary school, a catholic secondary school and was taken along to a catholic church once a month or so until I was about 15. The general gist of things always seemed to be good people will go to heaven (the good samaritan was the cornerstone of every other service, and they certainly aren't catholic or even jewish yet he was held up as the sort of man who would get to heaven) and the various sacraments and being a 'proper' catholic just make good being easier. It's one of the areas where the catholic church is least dickish.

[PeZook]

For a protestant man I know, this is only further proof that the Pope is anti-christ. I'd imagine a lot of other "Salvation? Only through grace!" protestants see it that way, too.

[Irbis]

For a protestant man I know, this is only further proof that the Pope is anti-christ.

To say nothing about a lot of Polish Catholics. Most of our Bishops still believes themselves to be Princes of the Church, and luxury to be necessary trappings of the job. What Bishop Pieronek recently said? "Atheists brought country and Europe to ruin. They should sit quiet, their lying lips twist message of new Pope into yet another knife raised in attack at the Mother Church"

[Serafina]

Yay!

Seriously, the church's biggest self-imposed obstacle from the Reformation onwards has been the dogmatic insistence that they, and they alone, can save your soul.

Well if they move too way away from that they might lose too much income.

So they'll try to shift to a "okay you don't have to be a catholic to go to heaven - but you have to be good (and we define whats good) and being a catholic gives you bonus points".

[Tiriol]

It isn't actually that surprising a stance for the Pope to take. Catholic Church has been pretty "lenient" about whole salvation thing for a while now, tending to believe that God saves those who are worthy and who love Him in their heart, even if they do not recognize Him (that's how the Church explained itself away from the problem of condemning all non-believers who have never even heard of Christ to damnation just because they didn't even have a chance to convert or learn about Christianity). Protestant teachings are usually a lot more strict ("Salvation through grace alone" and "if you do not repent and submit to Jesus entirely, you will burn in everlasting fire"). This is simply a logical continuation of that particular doctrine/belief/explanation for the Catholic Church.

[Dr. Trainwreck]

Are you shitting me? No? Atheists of all people?

Well, with so many liberal Catholics in Europe and the Americas, it was only a matter of time until the laypeople would drag the top of the church to the modern age.

[Crown]

Are you shitting me? No? Atheists of all people?

Well, with so many liberal Catholics in Europe and the Americas, it was only a matter of time until the laypeople would drag the top of the church to the modern age.

There's precedence; Dante's inferno has a whole bit of Aristotle and the like escaping the fate of the fires of damnation.

Did you get that? Pagans aren't roasting in the pits of Hell; how the hell are they gonna keep atheists out now?

[Raw Shark]

It's about as patronizing as the whole "lapsed Catholic" thing, really: "It's not a deal-breaker that you don't believe that Heaven actually exists, little buddy; we'll still let you into it if you're cool enough."

[Lord Revan]

It's about as patronizing as the whole "lapsed Catholic" thing, really: "It's not a deal-breaker that you don't believe that Heaven actually exists, little buddy; we'll still let you into it if you're cool enough."

True but it's still alot better then "believe in God and heaven or you'll burn in hell no matter how good a person you're otherwise".

[fgalkin]

Are you shitting me? No? Atheists of all people?

Well, with so many liberal Catholics in Europe and the Americas, it was only a matter of time until the laypeople would drag the top of the church to the modern age.

There's precedence; Dante's inferno has a whole bit of Aristotle and the like escaping the fate of the fires of damnation.

Did you get that? Pagans aren't roasting in the pits of Hell; how the hell are they gonna keep atheists out now?

And the relevance of Dante's Inferno to Catholic doctrine is.....

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Aaron MkII]

It's about as patronizing as the whole "lapsed Catholic" thing, really: "It's not a deal-breaker that you don't believe that Heaven actually exists, little buddy; we'll still let you into it if you're cool enough."

This is more about the church growing or maturing as a faith, then it is about us.

[Tiriol]

Are you shitting me? No? Atheists of all people?

Well, with so many liberal Catholics in Europe and the Americas, it was only a matter of time until the laypeople would drag the top of the church to the modern age.

There's precedence; Dante's inferno has a whole bit of Aristotle and the like escaping the fate of the fires of damnation.

Did you get that? Pagans aren't roasting in the pits of Hell; how the hell are they gonna keep atheists out now?

And the relevance of Dante's Inferno to Catholic doctrine is.....

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Dante didn't pull everything out of his ass; as I understand, there were already established ideas that virtous pagans who lived before Christ were given some leeway in that they didn't end up roasting in outer darkness with Satan. At least not necessarily. It's debatable how seriously people and the clergy took those ideas and if they were ever more than idle musings or near-heretical universalist approaches.

[Siege]

Dante placed Aristotle in Limbo, which was never a part of official Church doctrine (although I suppose they haven't always gone out of their way to discredit the idea of Limbo). The Divine Comedy is a great read, don't get me wrong, but taking it as a standard work on Catholic teaching is not a good idea. Dante did all sorts of fun things like placing contemporaries who were still alive at the time he wrote the book in hell already. There's a fair bit of politics to the book to go with the Catholicism.

Anyway, far as I know it's been the position of the Catholic Church that they don't get to know who goes to heaven, but that their teachings will get you in the door at least, or something along those lines -- I suppose it is kind of like bonus points, as Serafina put it.

[Alyeska]

And a day after the Pope said this, a Vatican representative pointed out "They are still going to hell"

So color me unimpressed. Since religion most concerns itself over heaven and hell, they still honestly think Atheists are evil.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... g-to-hell/

[Ralin]

And a day after the Pope said this, a Vatican representative pointed out "They are still going to hell"

So color me unimpressed. Since religion most concerns itself over heaven and hell, they still honestly think Atheists are evil.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... g-to-hell/

I dunno, I think he's contradicting the Pope on this one. Technically he could be right, but ask yourself, how many atheists do you think there are that have just never heard of the Catholic Church?

Really it reads more to me like an "Oh no, our supreme leader didn't say what it sounded like he said, let me tell you what he really meant" smokescreen to downplay the fact that the Pope said something actually fairly decent that pissed off a lot of other people in the hierarchy. Because I really doubt that the Pope was talking about the atheists of Xiaozhen, Inner Mongolia who've never heard of Jesus and St. Peter.

[Dr. Trainwreck]

There's precedence; Dante's inferno has a whole bit of Aristotle and the like escaping the fate of the fires of damnation.

Did you get that? Pagans aren't roasting in the pits of Hell; how the hell are they gonna keep atheists out now?

Yeah, but the Divine Comedy is essentially fanfiction so it doesn't count. There might be something in Catholicism about righteous pagans or some such, the Orthodox church certainly has some teachings on the subject.

An atheist Pope would be a step forward; on the other hand this one also seems to be a Marxist which is not so good.

How exactly can the Pope be an atheist? Think really hard about it.

[General Mung Beans]

As far as I can tell this is more of a Catholic version of the doctrine of Common Grace than anything else. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_grace

[Ralin]

How exactly can the Pope be an atheist? Think really hard about it.

By lying a lot?

[Tiriol]

An atheist Pope would be a step forward; on the other hand this one also seems to be a Marxist which is not so good.

A religious authority (a supreme one in his church no less) an atheist? Hod can you imagine it being a step forward or even possible?

And please explain how the current Pope is a Marxist. Or do you imagine that only a Marxist could care about the poor?

[wautd]

Sorry guys, the Vatican just corrected the Pope. Atheist do indeed go to hell

Link

VATICAN CITY, May 29 (UPI) -- The Vatican retracted Pope Francis' statement that everyone, "even the atheists," were saved from sin and redeemed by God and therefore welcome in heaven.

People who know about the Catholic Church "cannot be saved" if they "refuse to enter her or remain in her," Vatican spokesman the Rev. Thomas Rosica said in an "explanatory note."

At the same time, people "who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation," Rosica wrote.

He added, "No person is excluded from salvation simply because of so-called original sin; one can only lose their salvation through serious personal sin of their own account."

Francis made headlines when he said in a May 22 homily: "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the blood of Christ -- all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!

"'Father, the atheists?'" Francis said as if asking himself. "Even the atheists. Everyone!" Francis said in answering his Socratic-style question.

"And this blood makes us children of God of the first class!" Francis said. "We are created children in the likeness of God, and the blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace.

"If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter -- we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good," Francis said.

"'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!'" Francis said, again speaking as if he were someone else. "But do good -- we will meet one another there," Francis said in response.

Atheist Hemant Mehta wrote in his Friendly Atheist blog: "Atheists, according to Christians, are going to hell unless we accept Christ's divinity. We already knew that. It was still an unusual and welcome gesture from the pope to recognize that everyone, regardless of beliefs, can do good and 'be saved' -- at least it was a step up from what we're used to hearing."

British evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, known for advocating atheism and science, wrote on Twitter: "Atheists go to heaven? Nope. Sorry world, infallible pope got it wrong. Vatican steps in with alacrity."



Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/ ... z2UgT6XlDP

[Civil War Man]

Sorry guys, the Vatican just corrected the Pope. Atheist do indeed go to hell

So much for papal infallibility.

I'll personally be surprised if we don't get more of these "corrections" in the future. We've known from the start that Francis was, compared to the old guard in the Vatican, theologically liberal. I imagine there is quite a bit of tension behind the scenes that we don't see.

[hongi]

So much for papal infallibility.

Would it kill (some) atheists to learn about the religion they're criticising? Papal infallibility only applies to ex cathedra statements, the number of which are very small indeed.