Suggesting a new "Battles" page for the main site

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-03-14 01:36am

Darth Negation wrote:Even if Dooku escapes (unlikely after being hit by a x-bank stun beam) if the Feds have the leaders, the Nemodians would give the disarm codes ala Phantom menace, which I believe does extend to ships.

Err... aren't Dooku and Co. actually the Separatist leaders? The Feds just need the Nemodians.

And since when are the Seps sitting out in open staring wide-eyed at the Fed ships? I'd expect that, after the Feds were detected, the leaders would go hide at the command center. I sincerley doubt any Fed transporter could beam through that much rock and durasteel. If they don't activate a transporter inhibitor, of course.

You are focusing on them already being captured, and not how they are going to be captured.

I suspect that Fed ships dropping out of warp would be subject to Trade Fed Frieghter cannonades. Seeing as they know they are coming, the space battle would be short. They wouldn't even aprroach the battle zone methinks.

Darth Negation · Post by **Darth Negation** » 2003-03-14 01:46am

The Fed's are not detected due to the very bad early warning systems - how did the entire stadium be overshadowed by ships (after mass Jedi Battle Sequence) without the Separatists knowing about it?

The Fed's should be able to stun the entire command section of the Separatists in their alcove above, and then beam all of them aboard, including any surviving pieces of Fed commandoes (those poor souls replacing the Jedi) and get the Nemodians to disable the Droids of the army, or have them counterattack the Genosians and superdroids (if they do not turn). Why use your army if you can use theirs?

Darth Negation · Post by **Darth Negation** » 2003-03-14 01:49am

OOps, missed your last post about Hyperspace.

However, when beaming over an enraged Sith lord and Bounty hunter, it is advisable to hit them with a stun beam from a starship before.

Darth Negation · Post by **Darth Negation** » 2003-03-14 01:51am

Also, they should have an outside force providing a clone army. Would Jem-Hadar be better replacing the Fed troops?

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-03-14 06:20am

Don't know if this was posted,but wasn't one of the Republic tactical goal to stop the TF ships from lifting off?Presumably so that the leaders and vital war material won't make it off-world.

Can the Federation even duplicate the ability to damage TF ships without calling in orbital support?

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-03-14 08:42am

PainRack wrote:Don't know if this was posted,but wasn't one of the Republic tactical goal to stop the TF ships from lifting off?Presumably so that the leaders and vital war material won't make it off-world.

Can the Federation even duplicate the ability to damage TF ships without calling in orbital support?

Frankly, no they can't

Darth Negation · Post by **Darth Negation** » 2003-03-14 02:26pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Bad early warning system when things are exiting HYPERSPACE. They would see the Feds coming for a while at warp.

Wait - Fed ships travelling at warp still would not be detected: any ship coming out of Hyperspace must do so outside the gravity well and would take some time to get to the planet surface, and therefore as the Acclamators and landing craft were not detected, then the Federation ships would not be detected either when coming out of warp - it would be pointless to have a Distant Early Warning System if hyperdrive systems would be able to bypass it. However, as the Feds are travelling by warp, they get there and are promptly blown apart by the already built DS0. Or just get there in 100 years time, the clone troopers dying of old age.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-14 03:46pm

Darth Negation wrote:
Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Bad early warning system when things are exiting HYPERSPACE. They would see the Feds coming for a while at warp.

Wait - Fed ships travelling at warp still would not be detected: any ship coming out of Hyperspace must do so outside the gravity well and would take some time to get to the planet surface, and therefore as the Acclamators and landing craft were not detected, then the Federation ships would not be detected either when coming out of warp - it would be pointless to have a Distant Early Warning System if hyperdrive systems would be able to bypass it. However, as the Feds are travelling by warp, they get there and are promptly blown apart by the already built DS0. Or just get there in 100 years time, the clone troopers dying of old age.

It's kind of hard to miss a propulsion system that massively pollutes the spacetime continuum. If the Federation were traveling through the Star Wars galaxy, they'd be detected, pulled over and ticketed for emissions violations.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-03-14 03:56pm

One note point to make. When beaming someone aboard, the transporters can drain the power of any weapons that person might be carrying.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-03-14 04:03pm

Yogi wrote:One note point to make. When beaming someone aboard, the transporters can drain the power of any weapons that person might be carrying.

Not going to do much good when Dooku raises his hand!

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-03-14 04:36pm

Darth Negation wrote:Wait - Fed ships travelling at warp still would not be detected: any ship coming out of Hyperspace must do so outside the gravity well and would take some time to get to the planet surface, and therefore as the Acclamators and landing craft were not detected, then the Federation ships would not be detected either when coming out of warp - it would be pointless to have a Distant Early Warning System if hyperdrive systems would be able to bypass it. However, as the Feds are travelling by warp, they get there and are promptly blown apart by the already built DS0. Or just get there in 100 years time, the clone troopers dying of old age.

I think we're assuming that the battle shall begin on schedule, regardless of how long it would actually take warp to reach a planet. Taking decades/centuries to arrive at Geonosis is just a silly cop-out.

Anyways, their early warning system may be slow to react. Chances are, they were detected dropping out of hyperspace, and the Geonosians didn't have time to get word out and batten down the hatches. This is because something travelling at hyperspace will basically just appear out of thin air, travelling through their FTL detection in fractions of a second-and then materializing in realspace, that would leave little time for defenders to react. Fed ships wallowing about at warp would enter their FTL detection range, and instead of zipping through to Geonosis, would drag their way through. In such a case, defenses would be well prepared.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-03-14 06:16pm

Isolder74 wrote:Not going to do much good when Dooku raises his hand!

I was thinking more about Mr. Fett, as well as any guards that they might accidentally beam up.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-03-14 11:24pm

Yogi wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:Not going to do much good when Dooku raises his hand!
I was thinking more about Mr. Fett, as well as any guards that they might accidentally beam up.

I think Fett's rocket darts and flame thrower would still work

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-03-14 11:58pm

Isolder74 wrote:
Yogi wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:Not going to do much good when Dooku raises his hand!
I was thinking more about Mr. Fett, as well as any guards that they might accidentally beam up.
I think Fett's rocket darts and flame thrower would still work

Dont forget the concussion missile

Darth Negation · Post by **Darth Negation** » 2003-03-15 01:30am

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Darth Negation wrote:
Wait - Fed ships travelling at warp still would not be detected: any ship coming out of Hyperspace must do so outside the gravity well and would take some time to get to the planet surface, and therefore as the Acclamators and landing craft were not detected, then the Federation ships would not be detected either when coming out of warp - it would be pointless to have a Distant Early Warning System if hyperdrive systems would be able to bypass it. However, as the Feds are travelling by warp, they get there and are promptly blown apart by the already built DS0. Or just get there in 100 years time, the clone troopers dying of old age.
[\quote]

I think we're assuming that the battle shall begin on schedule, regardless of how long it would actually take warp to reach a planet. Taking decades/centuries to arrive at Geonosis is just a silly cop-out.

Anyways, their early warning system may be slow to react. Chances are, they were detected dropping out of hyperspace, and the Geonosians didn't have time to get word out and batten down the hatches. This is because something travelling at hyperspace will basically just appear out of thin air, travelling through their FTL detection in fractions of a second-and then materializing in realspace, that would leave little time for defenders to react. Fed ships wallowing about at warp would enter their FTL detection range, and instead of zipping through to Geonosis, would drag their way through. In such a case, defenses would be well prepared.

Wait, wait, wait. You said an EARLY warning system would be slow to detect ships from hyperspace, right? But this defense system is, therefore, useless against an attack by enemy forces using hyperdrive?

WHY, BY THE SITH, WOULD YOU HAVE AN EARLY WARNING SYSTEM THAT WOULD NOT GIVE YOU TO REACT?????

Assuming that Genosis has a sensor station to check for slow barely FTL moving ships and does not shout out "Hyperspace contact! We have a huge fleet incoming!!!" when the Acclamators revert to realspace is just...
Well, it's an assumption.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-15 01:59am

Darth Negation wrote:WHY, BY THE SITH, WOULD YOU HAVE AN EARLY WARNING SYSTEM THAT WOULD NOT GIVE YOU TO REACT?????

See The Empire Strikes Back.

Darth Negation · Post by **Darth Negation** » 2003-03-15 02:23am

That helps, actually.

The Rebels had time to set up the shields, EVEN THOUGH the Imperial forces could have, in Darth Garden Gnome's theory, come out of hyperspace near enough to the planet to blow the shield generator up.

Which they didn't. Also, in ESB,

George Lucas wrote:VADER: (angrily) The Rebels are alerted to our presence. Admiral Ozzel
came out of light-speed too close to the system.
VEERS: He felt surprise was wiser...
VADER: He is as clumsy as he is stupid.

This indicates that travelling at a lower speed than hyperspace would not be detected - if an Impstar (not the most subtle of ships) could creep over the Rebels at Hoth without being detected, the Feds could reach the planet without detection if it approached at lower speeds.
If this takes longer than expected, well, the battle can only start when the Federation gets there.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-03-15 07:53am

Isolder74 wrote:
PainRack wrote:Don't know if this was posted,but wasn't one of the Republic tactical goal to stop the TF ships from lifting off?Presumably so that the leaders and vital war material won't make it off-world.

Can the Federation even duplicate the ability to damage TF ships without calling in orbital support?
Frankly, no they can't

If they can't,is there even a point to the Feds replacing the Jedi?

Assuming the rescuers don't get the mass orbital ship support the Jedi didn't get,the hostages would be massacred on time.

Assuming the runabouts even make it to the arena,blast everyone and rescue the hostages,they can't deploy a combined ground force significant enough to take on and disable the droid army,overruning the defence perimeter and thus capturing the Seperatist leaders and war material on the ground.

If they can't take out those ships on the ground,its left to space or fighters.Considering the fact that a naval battle took place in the novelisation,I don't see how the Feds weapons can cripple the Federation ships.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-03-15 08:57am

Darth Negation wrote:That helps, actually.

The Rebels had time to set up the shields, EVEN THOUGH the Imperial forces could have, in Darth Garden Gnome's theory, come out of hyperspace near enough to the planet to blow the shield generator up.

Which they didn't. Also, in ESB,
George Lucas wrote:VADER: (angrily) The Rebels are alerted to our presence. Admiral Ozzel
came out of light-speed too close to the system.
VEERS: He felt surprise was wiser...
VADER: He is as clumsy as he is stupid.
This indicates that travelling at a lower speed than hyperspace would not be detected - if an Impstar (not the most subtle of ships) could creep over the Rebels at Hoth without being detected, the Feds could reach the planet without detection if it approached at lower speeds.
If this takes longer than expected, well, the battle can only start when the Federation gets there.

The Imperial's Problem at Hoth was they new which system but not which planet. Vader's Idea was to jump quite aways from the system out of early warning range scan for the rebel base and then micro-jump to the planet and then blast the generator from orbit. leaving the base defenceless. So what Ozzell did was jump to where the habitable planets would usually be and take the Rebels by surprise.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-03-15 03:17pm

Darth Negation wrote:Wait, wait, wait. You said an EARLY warning system would be slow to detect ships from hyperspace, right? But this defense system is, therefore, useless against an attack by enemy forces using hyperdrive?

Wrong. Acclamators a .6 class hypedrive, which is remarkably fast. Almost as fast as the Millenium Falcon! There are few ships in the galaxy that are that fast. Fewer are that fast AND have strong enough military power to overthrow Geonosis. One such army would be the Rwpublics.

Considering that the Sepratists didn't know the Republic had an army, the system would be good for detecting small groups of privatley funded armies, or random passer-bys, both of which would be using relativley SLOW hyperdrives in comparison.

WHY, BY THE SITH, WOULD YOU HAVE AN EARLY WARNING SYSTEM THAT WOULD NOT GIVE YOU TO REACT?????

Normally it would, but Acclamators are surprisingly fast, especially for military vessel.

Assuming that Genosis has a sensor station to check for slow barely FTL moving ships and does not shout out "Hyperspace contact! We have a huge fleet incoming!!!" when the Acclamators revert to realspace is just...
Well, it's an assumption.

Huh? Acclamatos are NOT slow, barley FTL moving ships. To the contrary, they're one of the FASTEST ships in the Republic.

Darth Negation · Post by **Darth Negation** » 2003-03-16 02:37am

Darth Garden Gnome wrote: Wrong. Acclamators a .6 class hypedrive, which is remarkably fast. Almost as fast as the Millenium Falcon! There are few ships in the galaxy that are that fast. Fewer are that fast AND have strong enough military power to overthrow Geonosis. One such army would be the Rwpublics.

Considering that the Sepratists didn't know the Republic had an army, the system would be good for detecting small groups of privatley funded armies, or random passer-bys, both of which would be using relativley SLOW hyperdrives in comparison.

Ships exiting hyperspace are detected by a "hyperwave warning" (The Last One Standing: The Tale Of Boba Fett, Tales of the Bounty Hunters).
I do not believe they can be detected in hyperspace as in (book 1/2 of the X-wing series, I forget which) an Imp Intel Officer tracks Rogue Squadron's hyperspace path by working out their entry and exit vectors to hyperspace to discover their base. If sensors could track ships through hyperspace there would not be a need for this, as he could have used the hyperspace paths in and out (much more accurate than the entry/exit vectors).

WHY, BY THE SITH, WOULD YOU HAVE AN EARLY WARNING SYSTEM THAT WOULD NOT GIVE YOU TO REACT?????
Normally it would, but Acclamators are surprisingly fast, especially for military vessel.

If ships cannot be detected through hyperspace, speed would not matter.

Assuming that Genosis has a sensor station to check for slow barely FTL moving ships and does not shout out "Hyperspace contact! We have a huge fleet incoming!!!" when the Acclamators revert to realspace is just...
Well, it's an assumption.
Huh? Acclamatos are NOT slow, barley FTL moving ships. To the contrary, they're one of the FASTEST ships in the Republic.

I should clarify.
Assuming that Genosis has a sensor station to check for slow barely FTL (i.e. Federation) ships and (aforesaid sensor station)does not shout out "Hyperspace contact! We have a huge fleet incoming!!!" when the Acclamators revert to realspace (over the planet's gravity well) is just...
Well, it's an assumption.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-03-16 02:56am

Darth Negation wrote:Ships exiting hyperspace are detected by a "hyperwave warning" (The Last One Standing: The Tale Of Boba Fett, Tales of the Bounty Hunters).I do not believe they can be detected in hyperspace as in (book 1/2 of the X-wing series, I forget which) an Imp Intel Officer tracks Rogue Squadron's hyperspace path by working out their entry and exit vectors to hyperspace to discover their base. If sensors could track ships through hyperspace there would not be a need for this, as he could have used the hyperspace paths in and out (much more accurate than the entry/exit vectors).

IIRC the Rebels detected the Imperial fleet before they entered the Hoth system in TESB. I could be wrong though, but regardless:

A ship leaving the this vessel (in this case, the Rouges escaping the Imp) would most likely still be scanned with FTL detectors, but would quickly exit its range. This means the Imp knows the Rouges are moving away from his ship, and thats whats important in a warning system. As long as a ship passes through FTL scanning distance, it is detected. Not so useful for chasing ships LEAVING the dectecing range, but definatley useful for ships passing through its field of detection.

I should clarify.
Assuming that Genosis has a sensor station to check for slow barely FTL (i.e. Federation) ships and (aforesaid sensor station)does not shout out "Hyperspace contact! We have a huge fleet incoming!!!" when the Acclamators revert to realspace (over the planet's gravity well) is just...
Well, it's an assumption.

First off, warp is NOT "barely FTL." Although significanly slower that hyperdrive, it is several thousand times c, IIRC. Secondly, the rest still doesn't make sense. You begin with Geonosis detecting Feds, then jump to having hyperspace contact (obviously not possible with Fed ships), then Acclamtors? Please clarify for sense-making please. Better yet, just tell me what the point is. Sorry for my confusion.

Darth Negation · Post by **Darth Negation** » 2003-03-16 03:22am

Sorry, just ignore my ramblings about barely FTL stuff. I'm kinda not making sense.

(just that part).
las

I should clarify.
Assuming that Genosis has a sensor station to check for slow barely FTL (i.e. Federation) ships and (aforesaid sensor station)does not shout out "Hyperspace contact! We have a huge fleet incoming!!!" when the Acclamators revert to realspace (over the planet's gravity well) is just...
Well, it's an assumption.

First off, warp is NOT "barely FTL." Although significanly slower that hyperdrive, it is several thousand times c, IIRC. Secondly, the rest still doesn't make sense. You begin with Geonosis detecting Feds, then jump to having hyperspace contact (obviously not possible with Fed ships), then Acclamtors? Please clarify for sense-making please. Better yet, just tell me what the point is. Sorry for my confusion.

screwed up a bit. Ignore that.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-03-16 03:31am

Uh-huh. Well, I'm hittin' the hay. Post your actual rebuttal, and I'll catch you in the morning. G'night SD.Net.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-16 04:03am

Darth Negation wrote:Ships exiting hyperspace are detected by a "hyperwave warning" (The Last One Standing: The Tale Of Boba Fett, Tales of the Bounty Hunters).
I do not believe they can be detected in hyperspace as in (book 1/2 of the X-wing series, I forget which) an Imp Intel Officer tracks Rogue Squadron's hyperspace path by working out their entry and exit vectors to hyperspace to discover their base. If sensors could track ships through hyperspace there would not be a need for this, as he could have used the hyperspace paths in and out (much more accurate than the entry/exit vectors).

Ships cannot be tracked through hyperspace, as was stated in the radio drama of ANH. However, special tracking devices can be used, as was demonstrated when the Devastator tracked the Tantive IV and when the Death Star tracked the Falcon.

As for tracking entry and exit vectors, I'm not sure what you're saying makes sense. If they knew the Rogues' entry and exit vectors, who gives a shit about what path they took? That involves nothing more than connecting the dots, unless hyperspace is non-Euclydian, and there's no indication that it is.