Leaked: Info on US Data Collection Programs

[Broomstick]

I feel an urge to snark. From Reuters:

(Reuters) - Former U.S. spy agency contractor Edward Snowden's whereabouts were a mystery on Monday as Russia resisted White House pressure to send him back to the United States or stop him continuing on his journey to escape U.S. prosecution.

Snowden, whose exposure of secret U.S. government surveillance raised questions about intrusions into private lives, was allowed to leave Hong Kong on Sunday despite Washington asking the Chinese territory to arrest him on espionage charges.

I think we may have already covered this - Hong Kong has something about not extraditing people accused of political crimes, which arguably espionage is. If the US had just accused him of theft Hong Kong may not have had a loophole to exploit.

There are no direct flights to Ecuador from Moscow and reports that he would fly there via Cuba were put in doubt when witnesses could not see him on the plane, despite tight security before take-off. A WikiLeaks spokesman muddied the waters by saying an approach had also been made to Iceland for asylum.

It wouldn't surprise me if he never intended to fly to Cuba and saying he was was entirely a smokescreen for his real movements. He'd be a fool to advertise his itinerary or intended travels.

As speculation grew about where he would go next, Washington was stung by Russian defiance.

I don't know where US officials ever got the notion that Russia would kowtow to them. "Stung?" I'm sorry, did you not realize US authority stops at the US border?

Snowden's flight to Russia, which like China challenges U.S. dominance of global diplomacy, is an embarrassment to President Barack Obama who has tried to "reset" ties with Moscow and build a partnership with Beijing.

"Dominance of global diplomacy" (which is to laugh, because Americans have never been known as particularly skilled in diplomacy) is code for "US orders, others obey" and, again, I am continually surprised that anyone in power thinks that other powerful nations are subservient vassals to US orders. Contrary to the apparent desires of some, the US does NOT control the world.

The White House said it expected the Russian government to send Snowden back to the United States and lodged "strong objections" to Hong Kong and China for letting him go.

Expected? I never expected either China or Russia to detain this guy. Why should they? Why would it be in their interests to do so when his continuing freedom is either neutral in respect to them or might weaken the US, which would be in their favor?

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said during a visit to India that it would be "deeply troubling" if Moscow defied the United States over Snowden, and said the fugitive "places himself above the law, having betrayed his country".

Again - the shock, SHOCK, that another nation does not blindly follow the US commands. Above the law? What about the recent administrations that have run roughshod over the constitution? Betrayal? Blind obedience to the corrupt is not proper loyalty, nor is defiance of the corrupt and possibly criminal treason. The government is not supposed to be above the law, I think some in the halls of power have forgotten that.

But the Russian government ignored the appeal and President Vladimir Putin's press secretary denied any knowledge of Snowden's movements.

... because Russia is a sovereign nation and the Russia government may not, in fact, have any knowledge of Snowden's movements. They might also be avoiding looking for him, but that's up to them. If he's not a criminal under their laws why should they care if he transits their country on the way to somewhere else?

He declined comment on the expulsion request but other Russian officials said Moscow had no obligation to cooperate with Washington, after it passed legislation to impose visa bans and asset freezes on Russians accused of violating human rights.

This is true - Russia is not obligated to cooperate with the US. Why does that surprise so many in the US?

U.S. HYPOCRISY

"Why should the United States expect restraint and understanding from Russia?" said Alexei Pushkov, the head of the foreign affairs committee in the lower house of parliament.

Putin has missed few chances to champion public figures who challenge Western governments and to portray Washington as an overzealous global policeman. But Russian leaders have not paraded Snowden before cameras or trumpeted his arrival.

So... the current Russia behavior is entirely consistent with recent past behavior.

Since leaving Hong Kong, where he feared arrest and extradition, Snowden has been searching for a country that can guarantee his security.

Ecuador's foreign minister, Ricardo Patino, said during a trip to Vietnam that Quito would take into account a U.S. request about Snowden and is in "respectful" contact with Russia about him. He gave no details of the U.S. request.

"We will consider the position of the U.S. government and we will take a decision in due course in line with the (Ecuadorean) constitution, the laws, international politics and sovereignty," Patino told a news conference in Hanoi.

A source at Aeroflot said on Sunday Snowden was booked on the flight due to depart for Havana on Monday at 2:05 p.m. (1005 GMT). But a correspondent aboard could not see him and the seat he was supposed to occupy, 17A, was taken by another passenger.

It was not immediately clear whether the plane had a crew section where Snowden might have been concealed.

Or maybe he just wasn't on that airplane? Perhaps he never intended to be on that airplane. I couldn't fathom why he would set foot on it given how much it's been advertised he was booked on it in the past day or so, that would be foolish.

U.S. Senator Charles Schumer said Putin had probably known about and approved Snowden's flight to Russia, and saw "the hand of Beijing" in Hong Kong's decision to let Snowden leave.

Because it always has to be about dictators and grand conspiracies, right? It couldn't possibly be, say, Hong Kong deciding they were better off simply letting him leave rather than risk being caught between the US and China. And, of course, we all know that all travel in Russia is personally controlled by Putin, right?

It wouldn't surprise me if Russia is taking the course that allowing Snowden to freely leave is in their best interests. What do they care if he spills US secrets? If he and WikiLeaks are now working together it's likely a lot of it will be publicly available to everyone shortly, with no effort on Russia's part. What reason would they have to heel to US command in this matter?

But taking the higher ground after being accused of hacking computers abroad, the Chinese Foreign Ministry expressed "grave concern" over Snowden's allegations that the United States had hacked computers in China. It said it had taken up the issue with Washington.

And I had to laugh at that, with the US being so god-damned prissy about hacking and cyberconflict. Only an idiot would think the US hasn't engaged in this as well. It's the pot calling the kettle black, once again the US government condemning others doing what they themselves do, of wanting special privilege, of limiting others while expanding their own field of action.

CHILL

Some Russians have praised Snowden's revelations. Others fear a new chill in relations with the United States.

"We are a pretty stubborn country and so is the United States. Both are mighty countries, so I would say this has a good potential to turn into a big fuss in bilateral relations," said Ina Sosna, manager of a Moscow cleaning company.

"I guess it would be best if they just let him move on from Russia to avoid any more controversy over him being here."

^ See.

WikiLeaks said Snowden was supplied with a refugee document of passage by Ecuador and that a British legal researcher working for the anti-secrecy group had accompanied him.

Ecuador, like Cuba and Venezuela, is a member of the ALBA bloc, an alliance of leftist governments in Latin America that pride themselves on their "anti-imperialist" credentials. The Quito government has been sheltering Assange at its London embassy for the past year.

Snowden, who had worked at a U.S. National Security Agency facility in Hawaii, had been hiding in Hong Kong, a former British colony that returned to China in 1997, since leaking details about secret U.S. surveillance programs to news media.

He has been charged with theft of federal government property, unauthorized communication of national defense information and willful communication of classified communications intelligence to an unauthorized person, with the latter two charges falling under the U.S. Espionage Act.

[Metahive]

The Washington Cabal and the gleichgeschalteten media howl about Snowden being a traitor while at the same time being busy betraying the american populace. I hope for many more setbacks and humiliations to befall those creeps.

[Broomstick]

Could someone define "gleichgeschalteten" for me? It's not a word I'm familiar with. I presume it's German?

[Thanas]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleichschaltung

[Broomstick]

Thank you. That provides exactly the context I need

(Google translate just gave me "regimented", which didn't seem quite right to me.)

[Flagg]

Just as a rule of thumb if some Internet dipshit starts throwing around German as an insult he's almost certainly talking about the Nazis.

[Terralthra]

So according to numerous media reports the Chinese made the final decision on letting Snowden flee Hon Kong. And there were reports on Morning Joe that the Chinese had access to his laptops.

The "reports" are basically out-of-thin-air bullshit. NY Times had the same "reports," but at least had the grace to admit it was speculation on the part of two anonymous US intelligence community members. Pure propaganda, in other words.

[Flagg]

So according to numerous media reports the Chinese made the final decision on letting Snowden flee Hon Kong. And there were reports on Morning Joe that the Chinese had access to his laptops.

The "reports" are basically out-of-thin-air bullshit. NY Times had the same "reports," but at least had the grace to admit it was speculation on the part of two anonymous US intelligence community members. Pure propaganda, in other words.

Yeah I've only heard it on TV and morning joe at that and haven't seen it online since.

[Broomstick]

Just as a rule of thumb if some Internet dipshit starts throwing around German as an insult he's almost certainly talking about the Nazis.

Well, yeah, but I'd still like to be clear on the meaning rather than just assuming shit.

And I just want to thank the Germansphere once again for the word schadenfreude, which doesn't have anything to do with the Nazis but really is one of my favorite words.

[Zaune]

I do have a concern that when he does find asylum some sort of skullduggery will occur to eliminate him. For all the protests of being moral and law-abiding the US government is not above going outside the law, as has been demonstrated in the past. If the current group in charge want to silence him badly enough, or make an example of him, they will do everything they can to achieve that goal.

If he's got any sense at all he'll have acquired something really damaging -the names of a bunch of CIA assets in Iran, for example- that he can have an associate dump into the public domain if he dies of anything other than natural causes.

[Korto]

You know, I kind of hope he doesn't have that precise hypothetical you mentioned? I would prefer something like highly embarrassing or criminal information on some high ranking politicians within the US, guys who are less likely to be arrested, tortured, and then executed. But when it's your life your talking about, beggars can't be choosers.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Yeah, at this point any damage we take is just our just desserts from having responded to his legitimate whistleblower activity by treating him like Manning due to Nixobama's obsession with leaks. Nixobama is just that--the reincarnation of Nixon with a D next to his name. Even gave us Nixoncare (watered down and made shittier), which we would have had for the past 40 years if we hadn't impeached Nixon. And hey, since we haven't impeached Obama, we're just as bad off today as if we hadn't impeached Nixon in terms of Presidents running roughshod over our rights! We should have just sucked it up and let Tricky Dick pass the Equal Rights Amendment and Universal Healthcare. Jesus.

[Metahive]

The Nazi-comparison is actually unfair, the Nazis had to force the media to conform to their narrative. In the US the media are doing so by their own volition.

[Broomstick]

Are they? We have no way of knowing if there is some sort of coercion going on behind the scenes.

[Metahive]

I'd like to see some evidence for that first before I consider it.

[Broomstick]

The problem is that the people who would normally provide evidence of that sort of thing - the press - are the very people that would be compromised in such a situation.

Meanwhile, more slanted reporting,from CNN this time:

(CNN) -- In this high stakes game of hide-and-seek, Edward Snowden appears to have the upper hand.

The exact whereabouts of the computer contractor who leaked secret information about the National Security Agency's surveillance programs are unknown.

Journalists, government officials and social media users around the world are busy trying to pinpoint his location. And the White House is demanding that any country he enters give him up so he can face espionage charges in the United States.

In other words, the administration is pissed he's eluded them. Of course, now that's he's not "just" a common criminal in their eyes he's eligible for "special treatment", I'm sure.

But so far, he's staying below the radar.

Right. Because one thing is for sure: Snowden is not stupid. He actually strikes me as pretty damn smart and he's probably had this whole escape and elude thing planned, complete with contingencies, even before he left the US.

A flight from Moscow to Havana that Snowden was reportedly set to board took off Monday packed with journalists, including a CNN team, but without the 30-year-old American they were all hoping to interview.

One person says he knows where Snowden is, but he isn't telling.

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange would only say Monday that the former NSA contractor is "in a safe place and his spirits are high." The anti-secrecy group says it's helping Snowden find asylum.

Snowden spent several weeks hiding out in Hong Kong and causing uproar in the United States by leaking classified NSA documents to journalists. He left the semi-autonomous Chinese territory on Sunday on a flight to Moscow.

Do we actually know that for sure? Yes, one person claims to have seen him, but who is this person and are they reliable? Or is this like the flight to Cuba that was supposed to have him but didn't? Did he let it slip he was going to Moscow and actually go somewhere else?

Mystery in Moscow

A passenger on the flight from Hong Kong to Moscow told CNN that she saw Snowden on board. But the Russian foreign ministry has said he hasn't entered Russia, implying that he may be somewhere on the transit side of the airport's immigration process.

^ See. Who was the person that supposedly saw him? What is it about the Russians saying he's not in Russia that "implies" he's on the transit side of the airport? What facts support these conclusions?

No journalists in Russia appear to have caught a glimpse of the slender, bespectacled face that has been splashed across TV screens, websites and newspaper front pages around the globe since Snowden revealed himself as the source of the controversial disclosures earlier this month.

After more than 24 hours of confusion and false leads in Moscow's Sheremetyevo Airport, the Guardian, the British newspaper that first published many of Snowden's disclosures, asked on Monday, "Was he ever even really here?"

^ See what I mean?

I find it vaguely amusing that these hordes of journalists are essentially being allowed to do the dirty work of hunting him down. Should they ever actually find this guy they'll trumpet his location to the world, thus allowing the US to go in and "extract" him.

The U.S. government says it believes Snowden is in Russia. And Obama administration officials, including FBI Director Robert Mueller, have been urging the Russian government to send him back to the United States.

In other words, do as we say and not as we do.

The White House is eager to avoid a repeat of what happened in Hong Kong, where authorities let Snowden leave despite a U.S. request for his arrest and extradition. Washington has described that move as a "serious setback" to building trust between the United States and China.

Translation: the US is pissy because Hong Kong didn't obey their orders.

Meanwhile, the Obama administration doesn't have much leverage with Moscow, according to Matthew Rojansky, an expert on U.S. and Russian national security at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Which is exactly why Snowden is there (if he is there) than many other countries. Russia doesn't take US orders, and they're strong enough not to be bullied.

"We really need Russian cooperation, I think, much more in most areas than the Russians need us," he said.

^ A particular truth many in the US are uncomfortable with, but that is still true nonetheless.

U.S. diplomatic headache

Washington is also telling other countries where Snowden might end up -- notably Ecuador, which says it's analyzing an asylum request from Snowden -- that they should hand him over should he land on their soil. They note that his U.S. passport has been revoked.

Again, more demands by the US. That's not diplomacy, that's being an asshat. Sure, his passport's been revoked but that just makes him a political refugee seeking asylum.

"The U.S. is advising these governments that Mr. Snowden is wanted on felony charges and as such should not be allowed to proceed in any further international travel other than is necessary to return him here to the United States," Carney said.

More hissy fits by the US. How many times in how many ways has this been said in this article alone?

But CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin said the issue now "is much more of a political and diplomatic matter than it is a legal matter."

"In an ordinary case, sure, you need a passport to get around," Toobin said. "But here, where this case is causing increasing embarrassment for the United States, governments that want the United States to be embarrassed are only too happy to waive some of the technical legal rules."

Yes, the more the US government jumps up and down and has a tantrum over this the louder other nations are laughing. He hasn't broken the law in those other nations, they don't see it as being in their interest to detain him and/or hand him over, and maybe if they let him run loose they'll get some juicy, useful tidbits on the US. Nope, they're not going to send him back to the US where he would undoubtably disappear into some gulag "detention center".

WikiLeaks says that Snowden has applied for asylum in multiple countries and that legally, Latin America is the best option for him.

He left Hong Kong on Sunday on a "refugee document of passage" issued by Ecuador, according to Assange.

^ See! He's a political refugee! So his US passport got revoked, apparently other countries are willing to issue him new travel documents.

But Tuesday, Ecuador's Foreign Minister Ricardo Patino said he didn't know exactly where Snowden is right now.

Which is probably absolutely true.

The leak controversy

Snowden has acknowledged that he leaked classified documents about the NSA's surveillance programs to the Guardian newspaper in Britain and to The Washington Post. The documents revealed the existence of programs that collect records of domestic telephone calls in the United States and monitor the Internet activity of overseas residents.

The disclosures shook the U.S. intelligence community and raised questions about whether the NSA is eroding American civil liberties.

Uh... this is actually a question? The NSA has been "eroding" US civil liberties for a long time now, although "eroding" is a euphenism for what is more like mountaintop-removal strip mining.

Snowden worked as a Hawaii-based computer network administrator for Booz Allen Hamilton, an NSA contractor, before he fled to Hong Kong last month with laptops full of confidential information.

He told the Guardian that he exposed the surveillance programs because they pose a threat to democracy, but administration officials said the programs are vital to preventing terrorist attacks and are overseen by all three branches of government.

See, the funny thing is, both of these parties can be telling the truth here - these programs may, indeed, be a "vital" part of anti-terrorist surveillance AND still eroding democracy and freedoms at the same time.

Carney questioned Snowden's assertion that he acted in defense of democratic transparency, saying his argument "is belied by the protectors he has potentially chosen -- China, Russia, Ecuador."

"His failures to criticize these regimes suggests that his true motive throughout has been to injure the national security of the United States, not to advance Internet freedom and free speech," Carney told reporters.

Right... he fears persecution from the US, so how dare he go to those countries that don't jump when the US says jump.

Snowden's search

The Committee to Protect Journalists has criticized Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa's government for pushing legislation that would roll back press freedoms, calling its policies increasingly repressive. But Snowden isn't looking for "political nirvana," said Glenn Greenwald, the columnist for the Guardian who broke Snowden's revelations.

"He's searching for a place where he can be safe and remain free and participate in the debate, and Ecuador seems to be the place he has chosen," Greenwald told CNN's The Lead.

Is that like flying to Cuba seemed to be his next move? Is he saying Ecuadore when actually he's planning to go somewhere else?

In a letter, read by Patino on Monday, Snowden compared himself to Pvt. Bradley Manning, the U.S. soldier accused of leaking classified information through WikiLeaks. He said U.S. officials have treated Manning inhumanely by holding him in solitary confinement, and he predicted a similar "cruel and unusual" fate for himself if he falls into U.S. hands.

Snowden has continued to drip feed other allegations about NSA activities to the international news media. He said the NSA hacked into computers and networks in Hong Kong and China, an accusation that undermined U.S. criticisms of Chinese cyberespionage activities.

A Hong Kong paper, the South China Morning Post, reported Tuesday that Snowden took the job at Booz Allen early this year to "collect proof" about the NSA programs before disclosing them to reporters. Snowden told the paper in an interview earlier this month that he intends to release more of the documents he took from the firm.

"If I have time to go through this information, I would like to make it available to journalists in each country to make their own assessment, independent of my bias, as to whether or not the knowledge of U.S. network operations against their people should be published," the newspaper quoted Snowden as saying.

When he went public as the NSA leaker, Snowden said that he didn't want to become the story. The focus should remain on the U.S. surveillance programs he had revealed, he said.

But right now, that's not happening.

His extraordinary and mysterious journey is dominating the headlines. And the world is waiting to see where he materializes next.

Of course the US wants to make this about Snowden, anything to divert attention from any possible evidence his accusations are even remotely true.

I'm wondering if WikiLeaks is actually the most reliable source about what he's doing right now.

[K. A. Pital]

Just look at that pathetic smear campaign... They are really failing hard, so hard. Who in their right mind would believe what comes out of the official White House mouths any more?

controversial disclosures

I fucking hate the media, I hate hate hate them.

There's nothing controversial about the disclosure and nothing controversial about a fucking total, global uncontrolled data mining network.

[Zaune]

You know, I kind of hope he doesn't have that precise hypothetical you mentioned? I would prefer something like highly embarrassing or criminal information on some high ranking politicians within the US, guys who are less likely to be arrested, tortured, and then executed. But when it's your life your talking about, beggars can't be choosers.

What could he possibly have on the Obama Administration that could be more embarrassing and criminal than what he already leaked? Or the details of drone strike policy, for that matter, which is a whole hell of a lot worse than PRISM but which they couldn't be bothered to try and keep a secret.

[Simon_Jester]

I think much of the problem is that the American media have gotten used to treating all political issues as a sort of racehorse between Democrats and Republicans. There's very little left of investigative journalism because of that. And at the same time, reporters have all gotten used to phrasing their statements in a very specific, peculiar sort of language, which is optimized to be "neutral" in a difference of opinion over things like taxes or the role of the judiciary.

If people disagree about something it is "controversial." IF you want to conceal your own opinion, you write "some say X, while others say Y." You're trying to make both sides present their 'best' argument, even if that means X and Y are no longer mutually exclusive.

It's sloppy, and stupid. A lot of the incentive comes from the fear of being sued for some kind of defamation, I think. Also from the media having trained themselves to think of political issues as just being another class of human interest story, one where they obviously don't want to alienate either side. So rather than make even the most rudimentary effort to evaluate claims, or to distinguish between outright criminal policies and perfectly harmless ones...

The media writes dreck like this.


Hell. I suspect that nowadays, even if you have four hundred witnesses showing the video they made with their cell phones of a guy decapitating someone in broad daylight, a lot of reporters would STILL say something vacuous like:

"The murder was allegedly committed at 5:37 p.m. today..."

[Metahive]

The problem is that the people who would normally provide evidence of that sort of thing - the press - are the very people that would be compromised in such a situation.

If there was really a concerted effort on behalf of the Washington Cabal to bully the entire mainstream media landscape into submission, it wouldn't be possible to keep that a secret for long simply because of the amount of bureaucratic effort it would require. In East Germany for example, the entire media landscape was state-run and yet they couldn't keep compromising news from leaking out. The only nation that has come close to achieving this is North Korea, and this requires the state to more or less run the country like a giant gulag. The US aren't there, at the moment at least. I'd argue it would also require the cooperation of non-american news media to succeed in complete secrecy.

No, I think the shameful kowtowing of the mainstream media before the government isn't, so far at least, the result of a government conspiracy.

[Omeros]

From the Guardian:

Edward Snowden never crossed border into Russia, says foreign minister

Sergei Lavrov's comments about fugitive US whistleblower deepen mystery surrounding his whereabouts

Russia's foreign minister has said the surveillance whistleblower Edward Snowden never crossed the border into Russia, deepening the mystery over his suspected flight from Hong Kong.

"I would like to say right away that we have no relation to either Mr Snowden or to his relationship with American justice or to his movements around the world," Sergei Lavrov said.

"He chose his route on his own, and we found out about it, as most here did, from mass media," he said during a joint press conference with Algeria's foreign minister. "He did not cross the Russian border."

According to WikiLeaks, which said it facilitated his travel, Snowden fled Hong Kong on Sunday morning to transit via Moscow to an undisclosed third country. He has applied to be granted political asylum by Ecuador, whose London embassy is currently sheltering the WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange.

Russian news agencies, citing anonymous sources, reported that Snowden had arrived in Moscow on Sunday evening and met Ecuadorean diplomats at Sheremetyevo airport while awaiting a Monday afternoon flight to Havana, from where he would travel to Venezuela. Snowden did not show up for the flight.

Passengers arriving on the Hong Kong to Moscow flight that was suspected to be carrying Snowden said they saw police activity and at least one black car drive up to the plane before they were allowed to disembark.

That fuelled speculation that Snowden may have been whisked from the plane before going through passport control. Olafur Vignir Sigurvinsson, an Icelandic businessman with links to WikiLeaks, told Reuters last week that he had readied a private jet to aid Snowden's flight from Hong Kong should the Icelandic government grant him asylum.

The US has warned Russia and China against helping Snowden as it seeks his extradition to face charges of espionage for gathering and disclosing documents outlining US surveillance programmes.

The White House spokesman Jay Carney said on Monday that the US was working under the assumption that Snowden was in Russia.

Lavrov lashed out angrily at suggestions that Russia was involved. "We consider the attempts we are now seeing to blame the Russian side for breaking US laws and being almost in on the plot totally baseless and unacceptable, and even an attempt to threaten us," he said.

So Snowden may not have gone to Russia at all. Or the Russians could be being disingenuous and deliberately obstructive. Interesting...

[Patroklos]

I do have a concern that when he does find asylum some sort of skullduggery will occur to eliminate him. For all the protests of being moral and law-abiding the US government is not above going outside the law, as has been demonstrated in the past. If the current group in charge want to silence him badly enough, or make an example of him, they will do everything they can to achieve that goal.

If he's got any sense at all he'll have acquired something really damaging -the names of a bunch of CIA assets in Iran, for example- that he can have an associate dump into the public domain if he dies of anything other than natural causes.

Unless he is actual a principled whistleblower instead of a traitor. Presumably he released what he did and restricted it to what he did because he had a genuine moral conflict and believed he was contributing to his country. I don't see how getting third party CIA agents killed contributes to his original moral or personnal goals.

Running to avoid jail is not really a problem for me, not everyone has the fortitude to suffer Mandela style for their principles nor should they be expected to. Divulging secrets you probably have no moral objection to, which would probably result in the deaths of your fellow citizens, just to avoid prison is quite another thing.

[Zaune]

Principles and pragmatism don't have to be mutually exclusive. He needs a bargaining chip of some sort, otherwise the US could still take him out with a drone strike or some subtler means if denied the opportunity to give him a show-trial.

[Mr Bean]

Principles and pragmatism don't have to be mutually exclusive. He needs a bargaining chip of some sort, otherwise the US could still take him out with a drone strike or some subtler means if denied the opportunity to give him a show-trial.

Except it's a chip he can't use, in essence the instant he did release a hypothetical list of cia assist lists someone's going to die and he's going to lose pretty much any and all public support.

In this scenario even threatening something like this would massively increase the chances of a drone strike and give the goverment and excuse to arrest and imprison everyone he's ever talked to or met.

[Simon_Jester]

Looking at the moral issue... Put it this way, Zaune.

If Snowden has principles, he should refrain from doing anything that he can predict will lead do deaths. Embarrassment is one thing, deaths are another.

Your example involves him selling out CIA agents in Iran, which would get some of those agents killed, and which could actually hurt the US, as opposed to hurting the security state apparatus by embarrassing it.


Bean did a good job pointing out the practical side of it.